John 3 - Born of Water and Spirit
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Sounds good just stop talking off topic.
It's not personal--anyone who changes the topic is told not to talk off topic.
LOL just by chance he uses "fire"--just by chance in light of everything else. Everything is just "coincidence" for you. The appearance of "fire" on Pentecost is also a coincidence. Anything to preserve your error.
Humble yourself.
Admit your error.
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You know next to nothing and your posts prove it. I invite anyone to review our interactions. I do not wish any ill to you but really you know next to nothing that's just the truth.
The police officer avatar is from a film, and it is meant to connote "confrontation", which is indeed what these conversations are about--people getting confronted on their errors.
You're "done", all right--you have no defense.
Thanks!
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LOL You showed me the reason you don't debate me--after Jimmy Akin agreed with my points on the Church as New Eve (not Mary), which you had wasted time and energy impotently "protesting", and strutting around pretending to be defeating, you had nothing to say. You ran away with your tail between your legs. LOL What a joke. Thanks for the laugh.
BreadOfLife
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An YOU tell ME not to change the subject.
You're the poster boy for hypocrisy . . .
LOL I made a comment I didn't start a new convo--beside, after Jimmy Akin sided with me on the issue (the Church as New Eve, not Mary) you refused to talk withe me on the thread where it WAS the topic so I had to confront you here. LOL
Anyway! Getting back to the topic now!
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Yes, of course. If you remember, though, earlier I said that the water represents the first birth, the natural birth. So I am not saying that we need amniotic fluid. And I think we both agree that we need a second birth or a spiritual birth. The locus of the talk, then, is centered on Jesus' use of the term water.
I understand your view that "water and spirit" are talking about the same thing. On the other hand, you seem to have an objection to my view that "water and Spirit" are talking about two things, the first being something we already have.
Suppose a boy asks his father to take him out for some bow and arrow target practice. His father remarks, "all we need is a bow and some arrows". The boy remarks, "I already have the bow. Can we buy some arrows?"
In this example, the father makes note of the fact that target shooting requires both the bow AND the arrow. Bow and arrow are two things. The boy volunteers that he already has the bow, satisfying one of the two requirements.
By analogy then, Jesus tells Nicodemus that he needs both water and Spirit. Nicodemus volunteers that he already has the water, (so to speak.) Now, my interpretation might be wrong. All I'm saying is that it isn't as far fetched as it might appear at first blush.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
If you take your own OP off topic then it creates a bias one-sided application of the rules of being "off topic". The rule is in place to keep the thread about the OP and not every personal platform of thought that comes to mind.
Stay on Topic
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
For Christ also said, ‘Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers’ wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: ‘Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from your souls; learn to do well…And though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white like wool; and though they be as crimson, I will make them white as snow…And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the layer the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone…And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed.”
Justin Martyr, First Apology, 61 (A.D. 110-165).
“Moreover, the things proceeding from the waters were blessed by God, that this also might be a sign of men’s being destined to receive repentance and remission of sins, through the water and laver of regeneration,–as many as come to the truth, and are born again, and receive blessing from God.”
Theopilus of Antioch, To Autolycus, 2:16 (A.D. 181).
” ‘And dipped himself,’ says [the Scripture], ‘seven times in Jordan.’ It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but it served as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'”
Irenaeus, Fragment, 34 (A.D. 190).
It was Justin Martyr who first taught baptismal regeneration (as noted by you). And Theophilus and others followed along, calling it "the laver of regeneration". But since regeneration is supernatural and accomplished by the Holy Spirit within the soul and spirit, ordinary water cannot be said to have supernatural properties. But the Catholic church even teaches about the magical powers of "holy water", so this error is understandable.
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Illuminator
Well-Known Member
No, it was first taught by Jesus and the Apostles that Justin Martyr had received.
The vast majority of Christians (i.e. Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, etc.) believe that Baptism is regenerational -- that is to say, that the Sacrament itself transforms the person by "water and the Word," (cf. Eph 5:26) thus adopting that person into the Body of Christ and making that person a participant in the very same Sonship which Christ Himself enjoys with the Father (Romans 8:15-17, Galatians 4:6-7).
Denial of baptismal regeneration was invented by John Calvin.
The error is separating water from spirit. Jesus didn't do that. See John 3:5. Nowhere in scripture is baptismal water separated from spirit. That is a 400+ year old man made tradition resulting in further division.
"magical powers of "holy water" ... I think you watch too many vampire movies. How you come to conclude from Justin Martyr's above quote that ordinary water has supernatural properties is anybody's guess. Without proper disposition, form, and intent, holy water is just water. The historic Church has never taught otherwise.
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Illuminator
Well-Known Member
Ex. 29:4; Lev. 8:6 – Aaron and his sons were washed in holy water in their consecration to the priesthood. Thus, we see the use of holy water during the beginning of salvation history.
Ex. 30:18-19 – the Lord requires Aaron and his sons to wash their hands and feet in holy water before they offered sacrifices to Him. The Church uses holy water for various purposes, and holy water fonts are generally located at the entrance of Catholic churches to be used before the sacrifice of Christ is offered to the Father.
Num. 5:17 – here again, the priest uses holy water. God uses natural matter to convey the supernatural, just as God who is Spirit became flesh in Christ Jesus.
Num. 8:7 – the Lord says to “sprinkle them with the water of remission.” The Lord uses water, a physical property, to convey His supernatural property of grace.
1 Kings 7:38-39 – in King Solomon’s temple, there were ten large basins of holy water. Holy water has always been used in the context of worship.
John 9:6-7 – Jesus uses clay and spittle to heal the blind man’s eyes, and ordered him to wash in the pool of Siloam to effect the cure. Jesus did not need to use spittle, clay and water, but He does to demonstrate that God uses the material things He created to give graces and heal us.
John 13:4-10 – the Lord uses water to wash the apostles’ feet to prepare them for their sacramental priesthood.
John 19:34 – water and blood flowed from Jesus’ pierced side on the Cross. The Church uses holy water as a symbol of our Lord’s life giving water that flowed from His sacred Heart, and as the property which brings about the power of Jesus Christ Himself, in baptism, the Eucharist, and other sacred rites of the Church.
Holy Water
Ex. 30:18-19 – the Lord requires Aaron and his sons to wash their hands and feet in holy water before they offered sacrifices to Him. The Church uses holy water for various purposes, and holy water fonts are generally located at the entrance of Catholic churches to be used before the sacrifice of Christ is offered to the Father.
Num. 5:17 – here again, the priest uses holy water. God uses natural matter to convey the supernatural, just as God who is Spirit became flesh in Christ Jesus.
Num. 8:7 – the Lord says to “sprinkle them with the water of remission.” The Lord uses water, a physical property, to convey His supernatural property of grace.
1 Kings 7:38-39 – in King Solomon’s temple, there were ten large basins of holy water. Holy water has always been used in the context of worship.
John 9:6-7 – Jesus uses clay and spittle to heal the blind man’s eyes, and ordered him to wash in the pool of Siloam to effect the cure. Jesus did not need to use spittle, clay and water, but He does to demonstrate that God uses the material things He created to give graces and heal us.
John 13:4-10 – the Lord uses water to wash the apostles’ feet to prepare them for their sacramental priesthood.
John 19:34 – water and blood flowed from Jesus’ pierced side on the Cross. The Church uses holy water as a symbol of our Lord’s life giving water that flowed from His sacred Heart, and as the property which brings about the power of Jesus Christ Himself, in baptism, the Eucharist, and other sacred rites of the Church.
Holy Water
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
St. Thomas Aquinas taught that water has been a natural sacrament since the dawn of creation. In the age of nature—from Adam through the patriarchs—water refreshed and cleansed humankind. In the age of Law—the time of Moses—water provided a spiritual rebirth for Israel as the nation began its journey to the promised land.
With Jesus, however, came the age of grace; and from that time onward water received the divine power of the Word made flesh. Though babies had always been born through “water,” now grown men and women could be “born of water and the Holy Spirit” (Jn 3:5). The Church Fathers taught that Jesus, by descending into the waters of the River Jordan, had sanctified the waters of the world. He made them living and life-giving (see Jn 4:10–14). He made them a source of supernatural regeneration, refreshment, and cleansing.
While we are on earth, we know spiritual things by means of sensible signs. It is only in glory that we will see divine things as they are, without their sacramental veils. According to St. Thomas, water ultimately “signifies the grace of the Holy Spirit . . . For the Holy Spirit is the unfailing fountain from whom all gifts of grace flow.” The book of Revelation confirms this, as it presents the Spirit’s grace as a “river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb” (Rev 22:1).
Scott Hahn
With Jesus, however, came the age of grace; and from that time onward water received the divine power of the Word made flesh. Though babies had always been born through “water,” now grown men and women could be “born of water and the Holy Spirit” (Jn 3:5). The Church Fathers taught that Jesus, by descending into the waters of the River Jordan, had sanctified the waters of the world. He made them living and life-giving (see Jn 4:10–14). He made them a source of supernatural regeneration, refreshment, and cleansing.
While we are on earth, we know spiritual things by means of sensible signs. It is only in glory that we will see divine things as they are, without their sacramental veils. According to St. Thomas, water ultimately “signifies the grace of the Holy Spirit . . . For the Holy Spirit is the unfailing fountain from whom all gifts of grace flow.” The book of Revelation confirms this, as it presents the Spirit’s grace as a “river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb” (Rev 22:1).
Scott Hahn
Based on what? There is no scriptural support for this philosophical idea. Indeed water destroyed the whole earth and every creature, other than eight souls and the animals in the Ark. So you have to decide whether the Bible is the only authoritative basis for any doctrine or not. Jesus taught that it was the only authoritative basis for any Christian doctrine.
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
You have to decide if water is a cleansing or an evil in that instance. The Gnostics believed that all things physical are evil, hence you have no physicality in your system, contrary to scripture. BTW, The Flood prefigures baptism.
Chapter and verse, please. "Sola Scriptura" is not found anywhere in Scripture and off topic derailer. Start a new thread.
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