Children (and dogs)?

[amadeus]

Well Jesus made it clear thatr unless a pewrson is born again they cannot even see the kingdom of God.

Of course anyone who cannot see would be a very poor eye witness, right? How many people are walking around today completely blind to God and the things of God?

Dogs have no souls like ,man.

But... then how many men are dogs? Here was a dog of great faith that worshipped Jesus:

"Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and cast it to dogs.
And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour." Matt 15:25-28

But as for children:
...

If God chooses to save infants- He mad that fact "nonya" which means none of our business. He will do what He does and whatever He does He will be just in doing so.

Amen!

 

[amadeus]

These children are the ones, the ones with no knowledge or insufficient knowledge to make a real choice between God's Way and the ways of sin... not yet.

Then consider these verses:

"And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation." Ex 34:6-7

These are saying that because of what the fathers did wrong the children will suffer. Perhaps the suffering is only physical in their flesh?

And then you have Jesus blasting out the religious folk calling them children of the devil.
Because they follow in their father's footsteps.
There are good wholesome God fearing loving families.
And for some reason there is always a black sheep in the family.
Is this the Parents fault? Is this anyone's fault?
I believe God uses the black sheep for his own purpose.
And sometimes it may not be for that sheep alone, but those in the family as well.

I had a brother. I had 2 actually. But the younger one was always into drugs, stealing cars, in jail, trouble with the law.
I remember when I was little, he had run away from home for a long time. I would sit looking out the window wondering where he was.
Praying he was alright and that God would bring him home safe one day.
Many many years later he was changed. But I had not kept up with him so I didn't know him. And one day he passed away.

My point being, If God hadn't used my brother as a black sheep and troublemaker,
would I have come to God daily in my prayers for him.
I believe that God drew me closer because of my brother.

Can someone who is unsaved lead another to salvation?
I believe they can.
My question then would be,
Would God credit that someone for leading another to him?

I believe a lot of the bad things that are happening in the world today is actually leading others to God to pray for those who are lost and destructive. If there were none lost, who would there be to pray for their salvation?

God's plans are way bigger than this little mind.

Hugs

Yes, there is the left hand of God being used as needed to accomplish his purposes... things done which are needful... But... we do not want to be the left hand of God or to be in His left hand at the end of our course, for to remain there is to go the way of the goats.

"Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" Matt 18:7

God used the Babylonians but in their time they fell before the armies of Media-Persia!

 

[quietthinker]

Mark 10:13-16
“And they began bringing children to Him, so that He might touch them; and the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, ‘Permit the children to come to Me; and do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter in at all.’ And He took them in His arms and began blessing them, laying His hands upon them.”

Unless adults receive The Kingdom as a child, they will not enter.

Most very young children could not grasp the doctrinal issues because of the complexity of it. I'd say once they reach the age of maturity in Christ and understand the core teachings, then yes, they will be held to account. In 2nd Timothy, it said that from "earliest childhood" he knew the Word which then enabled him to gain wisdom and faith and to receive salvation.
Those children brought up by ungodly parents are no different than anyone else, they will be held accountable once they DO hear the gospel, this is IMO only.
God Bless and save the children!

We need to ask, is Salvation because we are loved and God is gracious or does it hinge on a persons understanding of it?

 

[amadeus]

Children are much the same till we train them to be sinful..

Similar to the way churches train people to quench the Spirit of God,... no?

 

[Enoch111]

John the Baptist leapt in Elizabeths Womb.

Yes, but you could not have preached the Gospel to that baby in the womb, and neither could he have responded to it.

There is nothing false in postulating an age of accountability. Chances are that you could not have responded to the Gospel when you were 2, or 5, or 8 years old. And God does not expect what cannot be reasonably expected. The Jewish bar mitzvah happens at age 12, so one could say that this is also the age of accountability. But that cannot be a hard and fast rule.

According to Romans 1, all adult human being are without excuse, since the glory of God is revealed in creation. And that is not relevant to what is being discussed. Neither are dogs, cats, or any pets.

 

[Brakelite]

This isn't going to be popular, but nevertheless, I have to give my two cents--great question!

I believe that if there is physical DNA, there is also a spiritual DNA. And all people have it from conception. If people are aligned, by their general obedience, with the word of God, they will produce children with faith DNA. If people, by their general disobedience, produce children, they will have a DNA that finds God's word somewhat repulsive. They are not drawn to the very word of God that God uses to conceive men to partner with Him to produce children of faith.

So little innocent infants sometimes die with spiritual DNA already in their spirits. If they are produced as children of unbelief, they will not be drawn to God's word whether or not they live out their lives. If they die young, they may even avoid some of the bad decisions they might participate in. "It would have been better had they not been born," if they grow up to do terribly wicked things.

Those children born with a divine DNA may start out in unbelief, but will always be drawn towards God's word. They will end up in God's Kingdom by their faith, by their acknowledgement of God's righteousness. Whether or not they are very fruitful is determined not just by their faith in God that He is just, but also by their obedience to God's word throughout their lives. Some will receive lesser rewards, and some greater rewards, depending on their level of obedience.

Children with the bad kind of spiritual DNA who have done little wrong and die will suffer little in passing through the Lake of Fire. They will be separated for eternity from God--that's what the Lake of Fire really means--not eternal torture, but rather, eternal separation from the New Earth.

And children of unbelief who grow up and choose, in many ways, to cooperate with God's word, even though they are not drawn to it, will also suffer light blows in eternity. They will not be with us for all eternity, but they will not be roasted in an oven for all eternity--that is a complete misrepresentation of what Jesus meant by the Lake of Fire.

Being thrown for eternity into a Lake of Fire is indicative of a final separation from God. It is only a metaphorical location, not indicating something akin to a house or a city, but rather, representing an eternal condition of separation. They are thrown into the *condition* of being separated from God forever.

Actually, nobody can be completely separated from God--not even those who are separated from the New Earth. They are simply being removed from a closer proximity to God where the Church will be eternally blessed by God's close presence.

No, I believe that even the Lost will have a relationship with God in eternity. They are simply removed from the place where God's blessings flow most strongly, in His intimate presence, where cooperation exists forever between God and His People.

All who depart through the Lake of Fire, being thrown into it, will suffer the torment of knowing that they don't like God's word and therefore cannot benefit from its blessings. But as Jesus said, there will be "light punishment," and thus, less torment, for those who cooperate with God in this life.

I have reasons for believing this, but I'll reserve explanation for later. But we all have our opinions on Predestination, I should think?

You may have something here, but let's be careful not to exclude someone coming out of left field with no pedigree whatsoever in the things of God and being saved. I know of pastors who's parents were totally atheist secular and even occultist.

 

[Brakelite]

Dogs have no souls like ,man.

KJV Genesis 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The above does not say that man has a soul. He is a soul.
Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature (nephesh...soul... Same as Genesis 2:7 above. Both man and animal are living souls.) after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.‭

 

[Brakelite]

A dog and other animals generally only wants 3 things - Food/Water, Love and Exercise they are more likely to to be in heaven than us we could learn so much from animals on the way God wishes us to live, as they live just like in the garden of Eden except we feed them meat. Obviously animals that are carnivores are the exception.

Children are much the same till we train them to be sinful..

There will be no death either in heaven or the new earth. So every living creature both man and beast will be vegetarian as they were originally in Eden.

 

[Brakelite]

If babies are saved, I assume you accept the salvation of people who never heard the name of Jesus as well?

Not hearing or understanding the gospel, nor even hearing or knowing who Jesus is, does not preclude someone being saved because Jesus died for them. Let us not box God into our little set of theological formula and claim this one is saved because they completed a degree in being born again according to my theological university.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You may have something here, but let's be careful not to exclude someone coming out of left field with no pedigree whatsoever in the things of God and being saved. I know of pastors who's parents were totally atheist secular and even occultist.

My wife came out of an atheist family. My Mother came out of an atheist family. Both accepted the word of God when it was revealed to them. Yet when I look into their background, I find some godly person in their background--perhaps one who prays. God hears the prayers of our forbears, and even if their immediate children are rebellious, God will raise up grandchildren of faith.

I've seen this. I, my brother, and my cousin all became Christians out of waywardness, to some degree, completely apart from one another. The only thing we had in common was a committed Christian grandfather.

But I completely agree with you. Those who never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel clearly preached to them are not judged by that fact alone. God sees them through compassionate eyes, understanding their frustration, even in a pagan lifestyle. They may bear children who eventually find the truth--children who may even reach back to them, to share God's word with them.

The only thing that really matters is that we respond to God's word. Whether we live near or far from God in eternity, what we do with His word now will make our lives better or worse. I try to treat all people alike. But I can tell when people are willing serve God's word, but are repulsed by "Christian fellowship." Let's keep "fellowship" among true Christians?

 

[Nancy]

We need to ask, is Salvation because we are loved and God is gracious or does it hinge on a persons understanding of it?

Good point brother.

 

[Brakelite]

For a very long time I have leaning heavily to being what people would call an annihilationist. That is an important thing...

Totally with you there.

 

[Nancy]

KJV Genesis 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The above does not say that man has a soul. He is a soul.
Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature (nephesh...soul... Same as Genesis 2:7 above. Both man and animal are living souls.) after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.‭

All things He created He said were..."good". Why would He not want them around anymore? There will be horses in Heaven, or the New Earth anyhow, I'd think. One can only hope.

 

[Brakelite]

Children are much the same till we train them to be sinful..

Being sinful is the default system for all mankind. Which is why it is essential we train our children to be obedient to God's Commandments and to grow in faith and trust in Christ.

 

[Brakelite]

All things He created He said were..."good". Why would He not want them around anymore? There will be horses in Heaven, or the New Earth anyhow, I'd think. One can only hope.

Oh yes, I like horses too. And lions. Tigers. Alpacas. Gold fish..... In fact if I have my way, my mansion in the new Jerusalem and my home in the country will be filled with animals, birds, fish, and maybe even people.

 

[amadeus]

KJV Genesis 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The above does not say that man has a soul. He is a soul.
Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature (nephesh...soul... Same as Genesis 2:7 above. Both man and animal are living souls.) after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.‭

"For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?” Ecc 3:18-21

And then consider also what Solomon wrote here:

"Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:
She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table.
She hath sent forth her maidens: she crieth upon the highest places of the city," Prov. 9:1-3

The 'beasts' or 'beastly nature' of a man is the old man about which Apostle Paul writes. Who is it that kills the beasts of us? Who but the "new man" of us can? Is not Wisdom then Jesus who cleans out or kills the ways of garbage/beasts within us and then as we allow Him begins to build a new house, the new man...

What are the mingles wine and the table and her maidens and the highest places of the city? Hmmm?

Both unclean and clean beasts were saved in the ark built by Noah, but was that the end for them? Is it the end for us? Kill the beasts! Kill the old man!

 

[amadeus]

All things He created He said were..."good". Why would He not want them around anymore? There will be horses in Heaven, or the New Earth anyhow, I'd think. One can only hope.

What was in the ark that Noah built?

 

[Brakelite]

What was in the ark that Noah built?

Sadly, a heck of a lot of free space.

 

[amadeus]

Sadly, a heck of a lot of free space.

Yes, the beasts, unable to decide for themselves really were there and saved, but consider all of those left to the flood able to make decisions, who simply continued on in the ways of men until there was no more time...

 

[Brakelite]

Sadly, a heck of a lot of free space.

Although knowing the character of the antideluvians maybe not so sad. Not that it made much difference. Just 3 generations later they were building Babylon. I sometimes think that the technology the antideluvians had was of more importance to be destroyed, and the people second so they couldn't repeat it. Even then, they had the technology and know how to be able to transport 20ton blocks of stone over terrain that today is impossible.