Children (and dogs)?

[amadeus]

@Backlit wrote on another thread:

"I can't offer a scriptural reason for believing this, is simply a conscientious determination. That parents whose children were not old enough to make their own decisions for Christ, and who die, are sanctified by their parents faith and will be reunited, the parents being able to raise that child in the perfect atmosphere of heaven and the new earth.
I even hold a slight hope for my dogs."

My question is copied here to avoid derailing that thread:

And would it follow then that those young children whose parents were Not sanctified by their parents' faith would receive the same final negative result as their parents?

 

[GISMYS_7]

God is just!! All children are innocent until they are able to think clearly and know and understand right from wrong. Jesus said," let the little children come to me." Their parents believe and faith cannot or will not "sanctify" or save.

 

[Brakelite]

@Backlit wrote on another thread:

"I can't offer a scriptural reason for believing this, is simply a conscientious determination. That parents whose children were not old enough to make their own decisions for Christ, and who die, are sanctified by their parents faith and will be reunited, the parents being able to raise that child in the perfect atmosphere of heaven and the new earth.
I even hold a slight hope for my dogs."

My question is copied here to avoid derailing that thread:

And would it follow then that those young children whose parents were Not sanctified by their parents' faith would receive the same final negative result as their parents?

Some I have read in the past would claim yes. But in a sense I can not in the slightest agree with. The parent's destiny according to some is to suffer interminably for eternity. Are we to believe that children but a year old, or even 10 or maybe a little older, will suffer as equally a long time as adults who have made so many more bad choices and hurt and abused so many more and neglected so many opportunities for repentance? Which is where the imagination kicks in... Some would compromise their previous position on eternal torment for those not in Christ and say that children, even those who have never claimed Jesus as Savior, would go straight to heaven. I cannot agree with either scenario, which is why a final complete death is the only just concussion for all who are without Christ. Adults shall suffer before they terminate... Children with less guilt will die quickly... More stripes... Less stripes... God is just. But, I may be wrong. Not wrong about annihilation... But the destiny of children. Whatever God has planned, we know it will be just and fair.

 

[GISMYS_7]

I think I will choose to believe the words of Jesus about the all too real hell (lake of fire) and ignore the ideas of little men!!

 

[Nancy]

Mark 10:13-16
“And they began bringing children to Him, so that He might touch them; and the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, ‘Permit the children to come to Me; and do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter in at all.’ And He took them in His arms and began blessing them, laying His hands upon them.”

Unless adults receive The Kingdom as a child, they will not enter.

Most very young children could not grasp the doctrinal issues because of the complexity of it. I'd say once they reach the age of maturity in Christ and understand the core teachings, then yes, they will be held to account. In 2nd Timothy, it said that from "earliest childhood" he knew the Word which then enabled him to gain wisdom and faith and to receive salvation.
Those children brought up by ungodly parents are no different than anyone else, they will be held accountable once they DO hear the gospel, this is IMO only.
God Bless and save the children!

 

[Ziggy]

Jon 4:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

Deu 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

1Jo 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

Moses is speaking:
Deu 1:37 Also the LORD was angry with me for your sakes, saying, Thou also shalt not go in thither.
Deu 1:38 But Joshua the son of Nun, which standeth before thee, he shall go in thither: encourage him: for he shall cause Israel to inherit it.
Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.
Deu 1:40 But as for you, turn you, and take your journey into the wilderness by the way of the Red sea.

Just a few verses to consider.
Hugs

 

[Brakelite]

I think I will choose to believe the words of Jesus about the all too real hell (lake of fire) and ignore the ideas of little men!!

No-one has suggested there is no lake of fire.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Matthew 25:46 Jesus says===- And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Matthew 25:41 - Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10-15 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[Brakelite]

Matthew 25:46 Jesus says===- And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Matthew 25:41 - Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10-15 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

You've discussed these matters before have you not on this forum?

 

[Randy Kluth]

This isn't going to be popular, but nevertheless, I have to give my two cents--great question!

I believe that if there is physical DNA, there is also a spiritual DNA. And all people have it from conception. If people are aligned, by their general obedience, with the word of God, they will produce children with faith DNA. If people, by their general disobedience, produce children, they will have a DNA that finds God's word somewhat repulsive. They are not drawn to the very word of God that God uses to conceive men to partner with Him to produce children of faith.

So little innocent infants sometimes die with spiritual DNA already in their spirits. If they are produced as children of unbelief, they will not be drawn to God's word whether or not they live out their lives. If they die young, they may even avoid some of the bad decisions they might participate in. "It would have been better had they not been born," if they grow up to do terribly wicked things.

Those children born with a divine DNA may start out in unbelief, but will always be drawn towards God's word. They will end up in God's Kingdom by their faith, by their acknowledgement of God's righteousness. Whether or not they are very fruitful is determined not just by their faith in God that He is just, but also by their obedience to God's word throughout their lives. Some will receive lesser rewards, and some greater rewards, depending on their level of obedience.

Children with the bad kind of spiritual DNA who have done little wrong and die will suffer little in passing through the Lake of Fire. They will be separated for eternity from God--that's what the Lake of Fire really means--not eternal torture, but rather, eternal separation from the New Earth.

And children of unbelief who grow up and choose, in many ways, to cooperate with God's word, even though they are not drawn to it, will also suffer light blows in eternity. They will not be with us for all eternity, but they will not be roasted in an oven for all eternity--that is a complete misrepresentation of what Jesus meant by the Lake of Fire.

Being thrown for eternity into a Lake of Fire is indicative of a final separation from God. It is only a metaphorical location, not indicating something akin to a house or a city, but rather, representing an eternal condition of separation. They are thrown into the *condition* of being separated from God forever.

Actually, nobody can be completely separated from God--not even those who are separated from the New Earth. They are simply being removed from a closer proximity to God where the Church will be eternally blessed by God's close presence.

No, I believe that even the Lost will have a relationship with God in eternity. They are simply removed from the place where God's blessings flow most strongly, in His intimate presence, where cooperation exists forever between God and His People.

All who depart through the Lake of Fire, being thrown into it, will suffer the torment of knowing that they don't like God's word and therefore cannot benefit from its blessings. But as Jesus said, there will be "light punishment," and thus, less torment, for those who cooperate with God in this life.

I have reasons for believing this, but I'll reserve explanation for later. But we all have our opinions on Predestination, I should think?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

@Backlit wrote on another thread:

"I can't offer a scriptural reason for believing this, is simply a conscientious determination. That parents whose children were not old enough to make their own decisions for Christ, and who die, are sanctified by their parents faith and will be reunited, the parents being able to raise that child in the perfect atmosphere of heaven and the new earth.
I even hold a slight hope for my dogs."

My question is copied here to avoid derailing that thread:

And would it follow then that those young children whose parents were Not sanctified by their parents' faith would receive the same final negative result as their parents?

Well Jesus made it clear thatr unless a pewrson is born again they cannot even see the kingdom of God.

Dogs have no souls like ,man.

But as for children:

From romans 9:

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

If God chooses to save infants- He mad that fact "nonya" which means none of our business. He will do what He does and whatever He does He will be just in doing so.

 

[amadeus]

Some I have read in the past would claim yes. But in a sense I can not in the slightest agree with. The parent's destiny according to some is to suffer interminably for eternity. Are we to believe that children but a year old, or even 10 or maybe a little older, will suffer as equally a long time as adults who have made so many more bad choices and hurt and abused so many more and neglected so many opportunities for repentance? Which is where the imagination kicks in... Some would compromise their previous position on eternal torment for those not in Christ and say that children, even those who have never claimed Jesus as Savior, would go straight to heaven. I cannot agree with either scenario, which is why a final complete death is the only just concussion for all who are without Christ. Adults shall suffer before they terminate... Children with less guilt will die quickly... More stripes... Less stripes... God is just. But, I may be wrong. Not wrong about annihilation... But the destiny of children. Whatever God has planned, we know it will be just and fair.

A few considerations here to help my position on this be understood...

For a very long time I have leaning heavily to being what people would call an annihilationist. That is an important thing...

Read now this verse penned by Solomon about 3,000 years ago:

"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Prov. 22:6

For the believing conscientious parent, this is certainly giving their offspring a very positive hope... but what about the unbeliever or the even Christian parent who is altogether too careless about the training of his own natural children? Are the children condemned and lost to God as a result of their parents? Should they be?

As a resulted of the disobedience of Adam and Eve it seems to me that everyone everyone born to woman is effectively in the eyes of God born dead. Any one who never receives the Life which Jesus brought simply remains dead. They all have natural or carnal life, which is really not Life at all but simply a period of opportunity to move toward the Hope which Jesus provided. Whether they take advantage of the Hope and take hold of Life, is their choice.

For the children too young to be able to know what we are talking about, how much then falls on the parents? We are not talking about eternal torment, but simply closing their eyes along with their parents into nothingness. This is not punishment for there is no pain or continuation involved in it. Did God give all of those babies... something He has not given the adults or older children... an 'automatic' irrevocable ticket to unending Life in and with all of the blessings of God?

I won't continue in that vein for the moment, but will wait to what may be stirred up by it. I will ask here, what God's purpose was in creating people in the first place? How do the children who never attained that so-called age of accountability fit into it?

 

[Ziggy]

Actually, nobody can be completely separated from God--not even those who are separated from the New Earth. They are simply being removed from a closer proximity to God where the Church will be eternally blessed by God's close presence.

No, I believe that even the Lost will have a relationship with God in eternity. They are simply removed from the place where God's blessings flow most strongly, in His intimate presence, where cooperation exists forever between God and His People.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

What does it mean to be without? outside the gates of the city?
If hell and death are swallowed up in the lake of fire,
then how do these remain outside the gates?

Jde 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

I look around the world today. I'm relatively young having only lived on this planet for 56 years.
But I see what is almost a curtain or a wall between those that believe and have faith and those that do not.
And it is becoming so sharp, so defined. You know you know when you meet someone who is totally lost and in darkness.

And yet I believe that if there were no hope, then Jesus would not have sent his people into the world to spread the Gospel.

Very thought provoking
thank you
Hugs

 

[amadeus]

Deu 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

This one, I believe, speaks of children already able to purposely sin and they would not really be my concern here.

Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

These children are the ones, the ones with no knowledge or insufficient knowledge to make a real choice between God's Way and the ways of sin... not yet.

Then consider these verses:

"And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation." Ex 34:6-7

These are saying that because of what the fathers did wrong the children will suffer. Perhaps the suffering is only physical in their flesh?

 

[amadeus]

Matthew 25:46 Jesus says===- And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Matthew 25:41 - Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10-15 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

But anyone who had never received the Life which Jesus brought would not be either to the left or to the right. They would simply be dead dust back from whence they came with no more hope or anything else. They would be finally and completely dead.

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." Ecc 9:5

 

[Ziggy]

This one, I believe, speaks of children already able to purposely sin and they would not really be my concern here.

Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

These children are the ones, the ones with no knowledge or insufficient knowledge to make a real choice between God's Way and the ways of sin... not yet.

Then consider these verses:

"And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation." Ex 34:6-7

These are saying that because of what the fathers did wrong the children will suffer. Perhaps the suffering is only physical in their flesh?[/QUOTE]

And then you have Jesus blasting out the religious folk calling them children of the devil.
Because they follow in their father's footsteps.
There are good wholesome God fearing loving families.
And for some reason there is always a black sheep in the family.
Is this the Parents fault? Is this anyone's fault?
I believe God uses the black sheep for his own purpose.
And sometimes it may not be for that sheep alone, but those in the family as well.

I had a brother. I had 2 actually. But the younger one was always into drugs, stealing cars, in jail, trouble with the law.
I remember when I was little, he had run away from home for a long time. I would sit looking out the window wondering where he was.
Praying he was alright and that God would bring him home safe one day.
Many many years later he was changed. But I had not kept up with him so I didn't know him. And one day he passed away.

My point being, If God hadn't used my brother as a black sheep and troublemaker,
would I have come to God daily in my prayers for him.
I believe that God drew me closer because of my brother.

Can someone who is unsaved lead another to salvation?
I believe they can.
My question then would be,
Would God credit that someone for leading another to him?

I believe a lot of the bad things that are happening in the world today is actually leading others to God to pray for those who are lost and destructive. If there were none lost, who would there be to pray for their salvation?

God's plans are way bigger than this little mind.

Hugs

 

[Enoch111]

...That parents whose children were not old enough to make their own decisions for Christ, and who die, are sanctified by their parents faith

In response to this idea, we have what is revealed in Scripture.

1. Christ died for the sins of all humanity (which is denied by many).

2. God commands all men everywhere to (1) repent and (2) believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

3. Christ has commanded that the Gospel be preached to "every creature", and it is by the hearing of the Gospel that faith is generated.

4. "Little children" are incapable of either comprehending the Gospel, their own sinfulness, or the finished work of Christ.

5. Therefore God does not hold little children accountable for responding to the Gospel. He also excludes those who are mentally incapable of responding to the Gospel.

6. If an infant or a young child dies, he or she automatically goes to Heaven. Jesus said "For of such is the Kingdom of Heaven".

7. The faith or unbelief of the parents is immaterial. The only thing that counts is the blood of Christ and His finished work of redemption.

8. The Gospel must be shared with little children as early as possible, and when they reach "the age of accountability", they must respond appropriately to the Gospel, repent, and be converted.

9. Infant baptism is worthless, since water does not save anyone.

10. Adult baptism is to signify that the person is saved, not to save that person through "baptismal regeneration".

 

[Ronald Nolette]

In response to this idea, we have what is revealed in Scripture.

1. Christ died for the sins of all humanity (which is denied by many).

2. God commands all men everywhere to (1) repent and (2) believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

3. Christ has commanded that the Gospel be preached to "every creature", and it is by the hearing of the Gospel that faith is generated.

4. "Little children" are incapable of either comprehending the Gospel, their own sinfulness, or the finished work of Christ.

5. Therefore God does not hold little children accountable for responding to the Gospel. He also excludes those who are mentally incapable of responding to the Gospel.

6. If an infant or a young child dies, he or she automatically goes to Heaven. Jesus said "For of such is the Kingdom of Heaven".

7. The faith or unbelief of the parents is immaterial. The only thing that counts is the blood of Christ and His finished work of redemption.

8. The Gospel must be shared with little children as early as possible, and when they reach "the age of accountability", they must respond appropriately to the Gospel, repent, and be converted.

9. Infant baptism is worthless, since water does not save anyone.

10. Adult baptism is to signify that the person is saved, not to save that person through "baptismal regeneration".

YOu haqve drawn a false conclusion based on a false starting point.

John the Baptist leapt in Elizabeths Womb. YOur points 4,5,6 are relics from Catholicism.

Point 8 there is no age of accountability in the bible. YOu cannot bring any scripture to bear to defend points 4-5-6-8.

If babies are saved, I assume you accept the salvation of people who never heard the name of Jesus as well?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

What does it mean to be without? outside the gates of the city?
If hell and death are swallowed up in the lake of fire,
then how do these remain outside the gates?

Yes, the place of those who gravitate *away from* God's word leave the light and end up in *spiritual darkness.* I don't believe it will be without actual light. "Outer Darkness" suggests alienation, away from a city that shines with the radiance of God.

Jde 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

I look around the world today. I'm relatively young having only lived on this planet for 56 years.
But I see what is almost a curtain or a wall between those that believe and have faith and those that do not.
And it is becoming so sharp, so defined. You know you know when you meet someone who is totally lost and in darkness.

And yet I believe that if there were no hope, then Jesus would not have sent his people into the world to spread the Gospel.

Very thought provoking
thank you
Hugs

Yes, as the Gospel permeates the 4 corners of the earth, it provokes a distinct reaction. Over time there is a rising crescendo of rebellion against God's word, resulting in the divisions you are witnessing. It was all predicted, and we have only to wait, and to endure.

Thanks for your optimism. The word definitely goes out and accomplishes what it is sent out to do. Many are being saved. Many are being led into righteous behavior. God bless!

 

[Marc RL Ministry]

@Backlit wrote on another thread:

"I can't offer a scriptural reason for believing this, is simply a conscientious determination. That parents whose children were not old enough to make their own decisions for Christ, and who die, are sanctified by their parents faith and will be reunited, the parents being able to raise that child in the perfect atmosphere of heaven and the new earth.
I even hold a slight hope for my dogs."

My question is copied here to avoid derailing that thread:

And would it follow then that those young children whose parents were Not sanctified by their parents' faith would receive the same final negative result as their parents?

A dog and other animals generally only wants 3 things - Food/Water, Love and Exercise they are more likely to to be in heaven than us we could learn so much from animals on the way God wishes us to live, as they live just like in the garden of Eden except we feed them meat. Obviously animals that are carnivores are the exception.

Children are much the same till we train them to be sinful..