Homosexuality and The Church

[Fire-7]

I have a lot to say about this subject, but for the sake of time, or lack thereof, I have to condense my ideas in order to make this as short as possible. I'm working on a sort of expose' of this subject, but I probably won't be able to get a lot of material in one post or even this thread alone...I may be able to express more at a later date. But for now, I just want to present my feelings and get some diverse feedback. Whether you agree with me or not, all feedback is welcomed here.


I have for some time been concerned about the state of the church--not in a cynical spirit--because i don't believe that cynicism, negativity, or suspicion has any place in the Kingdom of G-d. There are so many questions that I have about G-d, which I can't even begin to fully express here. And some things that take place in the chruch make me not want to be a part of this thing called "Christianity". But I am a part of it, and since I am, some issues hit close to home for me. An certain issues hit even closer to home. One of these issue s the issue of Homosexuality. And if you are wondering now if I'm homosexual, I don't encourage you to even guess at that because this isn't about me but about the body of Christ as a whole--bigger than me and you.

I feel that the church does not adequately deal with the subject of sex, in general. And because the "Gay" lifestyle has obviously become a big political issue in society, the church is forced to deal with it. How she deals with it is the issue that concerns me. A lot of people attack the church, but that's not what I believe in. The bible clearly addresses this issue and states in more than one passage that it's sinful. So, it's only natural and understandable that the church would identify sin and fight against it. However, I'm wondering how equiped the church is to handle such a major issue. I think it is unbalanced--mainly because we are too opininated. We, as Christians and ministers are so proud of our "interpretations". But in reality, interpretation is just a fancy word for opinion, and opinions are like noses--everybody has one.


However, this (sex) is one issue (among many) that I don't think the church can afford to be opinionated on, because it is so central to the life and soul of an individual. The very first statement that's made about us when we are born is a sexual statement--"It's a boy!", "It's a girl". Just as we can't separate our identity from our sexuality, we cannot separate sexuality from spirituality. therefore, I believe that if we are ever going to be a powerful operating in the fullness of what what we claim we believe, we need healing and understanding in this area. I personally think that the church has fallen short of this.


I can give so many examples and illustrations, but I can show you faster than I can tell you. Following this are videos--along with a description of three different ministers preaching on the subject of homosexuality, and I'll briefly tell you what I think about the material.


Prophet Todd Hall Speaks Against Homosexuality
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA_cz34sY3U
I assume by the title, and style, that this is a COGIC preacher declaring that you cannot be a "sissy" and have the H-ly Ghost. COGICs are known for being a roudy bunch. They preach passionately and don't mind making you feel the flames of hell while making you feel good at the same time. It's ironic that they preach so strongly against homosexuality when so many of the clergy in that denomination get caught with their pants down. And so many who haven't been caught are living secret homosexual lifestyles. the ones who are really clean are very proud about it and will let you know with the quickness how heterosexual they are compared to those "nasty" dirty homosexuals. As far as this particular scene, I was disheartened with the manner in which the preacher went about handling the subject. While many saw it as "holy boldness", some saw it as arrogance--I happen to be one of those.


Prophet Brian Carn on Homosexuality In The Pulpit/Church
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WYGmHcVgVQ
I paraphrazed the title, because the title that's posted on youtube I think is presumptuous ("...Eddie Long Scandal...")
This preacher uses an example of another high profile minister, without saying his name, to illustrate the problem of gays in the church. In one breath, he says, as many preachers do, that the church is a hospital. In the next breath, he delivers some painful medicine--which could possibly be poison--when he explains how calling people out of their name is good for them. Declaring them to be "sissies", "fags", "booty-bandits", etc... he seems to be having a lot of fun as the croud cheers him on. But I'll let you watch and come to your own conclusion before i give more of my opinion on this.


G Craig Lewis Exposes Homosexuality
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jv0psJWtFHg
This is the same preacher who "exposed" the "evils" of the Hip Hop religion/culture and its illegal infiltration into the church--declaring that one cannot mix the secular with the holy--"worldly" music with the gospel message. G Craig has been called the "Malcom X of Christiandom" because of his bold in-your-face style of preaching. He doesn't beat around the bush or bite his tonuge, and he's not afraid to call names (which is why he has been sued by numberous artists and ministers...which in turn he tells them to "join the list"). This video clip is obviously and edited excerpt of the sermon, because they edited out the part where he says "you sissy!" referring to another minister who was apparently advocating a kind-and-loving approach to homosexuals.

So I would like to know what you think about this material and this subject all together.

 

[calbhach]

Now, while I couldn't watch the videos (bandwidth issues...stupid satellite internet. lolol) I know exactly what you're talking about. While the issue of homosexuality needs to be addressed, many, many people do it in all the wrong ways. We as Christians are called to love our neighbors and our enemies...and that encompasses heterosexuals and homosexuals alike. If we aren't loving towards them, in my opinion (like you said, opinions are like noses, though ), why would they want to listen to us? If we're bashing them for what they're doing, what would make them ever want to listen to us? :\ We're all called to love; bashing like that isn't loving.

1 Corinthians 13:4-7 - (4) Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. (5) It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. (6) Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. (7) It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

I know several homosexuals; While I don't agree with their views on sexuality, I still love them as people. I even had some of them essentially thank me for not just beating them down...it's not what they said, but I have the distinct feeling that's what they meant. When they see that a heterosexual CAN love them as people, they're probably a lot more likely to listen to us.

 

[religusnut]

Truth of the matter is that sexual sin is sexual sin. One should be addressed no more passionately than the other. As with the case of homosexuals in the church the problem always comes up as to whether they ought to be preachers/pastors or involved in other ministry. A homosexual has NO place in the leadership of anything to do with Christianity. A man/ woman that is in an adulterous relationship where they are cheating on their spouse or are in an affair should not be allowed as well.

I have found that in most situations I have dealt with that we take a person however and love them and build a relationship with them and we can learn where their issues lie. Once we do we can help them overcome their issues if they want to overcome them. Some do and some don't. There in lies another problem for the Church. Once they confirm that they had rather live in their sinful lifestyle than renounce and repent for that lifestyle then we must come to a point that we turn the body over to the enemy that the spirit might be saved.

All sexual sin is repulsive to God. Any counselor that works with any number of people will quickly come to understand that sexual sin is one of the most damning things that there is in destroying people's lives. Homosexuality comes from various things playing out in a person's life. Just being born that way is not the problem and god did not create them that way. It is sin.

Homosexuality is a very complex situation also because of the in your face mess that the homosexual agenda proposes for the world to push their agendas. Most involved in this group have come to the conclusion that their sinful lifestyle is normal and is ok. They had rather shake their fists in the face of God and attack His principles and His Word than repent.

The radical homosexual agenda and liberal Churches that have recognized homosexuality as a normal acceptable lifestyle are a lot of the reason for the problems we see and a lot of the retaliation from the pulpits as well.

It is a tough call.

 

[Duckybill]

Truth of the matter is that sexual sin is sexual sin. One should be addressed no more passionately than the other. As with the case of homosexuals in the church the problem always comes up as to whether they ought to be preachers/pastors or involved in other ministry. A homosexual has NO place in the leadership of anything to do with Christianity. A man/ woman that is in an adulterous relationship where they are cheating on their spouse or are in an affair should not be allowed as well.

I have found that in most situations I have dealt with that we take a person however and love them and build a relationship with them and we can learn where their issues lie. Once we do we can help them overcome their issues if they want to overcome them. Some do and some don't. There in lies another problem for the Church. Once they confirm that they had rather live in their sinful lifestyle than renounce and repent for that lifestyle then we must come to a point that we turn the body over to the enemy that the spirit might be saved.

All sexual sin is repulsive to God. Any counselor that works with any number of people will quickly come to understand that sexual sin is one of the most damning things that there is in destroying people's lives. Homosexuality comes from various things playing out in a person's life. Just being born that way is not the problem and god did not create them that way. It is sin.

Homosexuality is a very complex situation also because of the in your face mess that the homosexual agenda proposes for the world to push their agendas. Most involved in this group have come to the conclusion that their sinful lifestyle is normal and is ok. They had rather shake their fists in the face of God and attack His principles and His Word than repent.

The radical homosexual agenda and liberal Churches that have recognized homosexuality as a normal acceptable lifestyle are a lot of the reason for the problems we see and a lot of the retaliation from the pulpits as well.

It is a tough call.

Very well said! As was said in another thread, those who charge 'gay bashing by Christians' is often 'Christian bashing by gays'.

 

[religusnut]

Very well said! As was said in another thread, those who charge 'gay bashing by Christians' is often 'Christian bashing by gays'.

That says it I think best in a short phrase than any I have heard. Most of the bashing comes from them. It is kind of like I pick a fight with you and when you finally retaliate I point my finger at you and say you hit me.

I have seen many in the ministry that have preached against homosexuality openly and loudly. However most I personally know will tell you that it is sin and I for one teach and preach most of the time the love of Christ. the problem is that there are some that have allowed their minds to become totally blinded and their consciences seared. Thus they have accepted the truth as a lie.

Never for get Jesus died for the homosexual just as he did the heterosexual. Also not all practicing heterosexuals are sexual sinners. However all practicing homosexuals are sexual sinners.

 

[rockytopva]

And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;" - 2 Peter 2:13-15

Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. - Rev 18:2

Flee fornication! 1 Corinthians 6:18


If I may combine the above scriptures...

Flee fornication! For the world is becoming a habitation of devils... Having eyes full of adultery that cannot cease from sin!

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

The problem is,,,

Sin is sin. Period. Sexual sin is just as bad as stealing a piece of gum. That's a fact.

Why people pick homosexuality specifically to champion is beyond me. Maybe because society as a whole accepts the fact that stealing is wrong.

But honestly,, Why homosexuality specific? It's just as much a sin to be gay as it is to have sex out of wedlock.

Yet millions of people shack up and have kids and aren't married. But, we don't seem to have many trying to kick in doors to stop it. Is it because they're str8?

I think we should address sin as sin and not champion any one single cause.

It's obvious that a gay person shouldn't be a preacher or hold any position in church. But, that goes the same with adulterers, drukards, liars, thieves, etc etc etc.

Honestly, we should only be trying to keep it out of the kingdom of God. Those of us who are a part of it should be encouraging those others who are part of it to abstain from all sin.

Let the world be the world, let the church be the church. Those who want to hear let them hear, those who don't want to hear, don't force them.

If we let go of some aspects of Calvinism that's festered it's way into the church, we'll be lightyears away from where we are now.

We don't need to control the world!!!!!!!!!!

 

[rockytopva]

The problem is,,,

Sin is sin. Period. Sexual sin is just as bad as stealing a piece of gum. That's a fact.

Why people pick homosexuality specifically to champion is beyond me. Maybe because society as a whole accepts the fact that stealing is wrong.

But honestly,, Why homosexuality specific? It's just as much a sin to be gay as it is to have sex out of wedlock.

Yet millions of people shack up and have kids and aren't married. But, we don't seem to have many trying to kick in doors to stop it. Is it because they're str8?

I think we should address sin as sin and not champion any one single cause.

It's obvious that a gay person shouldn't be a preacher or hold any position in church. But, that goes the same with adulterers, drukards, liars, thieves, etc etc etc.

Honestly, we should only be trying to keep it out of the kingdom of God. Those of us who are a part of it should be encouraging those others who are part of it to abstain from all sin.

Let the world be the world, let the church be the church. Those who want to hear let them hear, those who don't want to hear, don't force them.

If we let go of some aspects of Calvinism that's festered it's way into the church, we'll be lightyears away from where we are now.

We don't need to control the world!!!!!!!!!!

Well spoken Mr Knuckle.

 

[religusnut]

The problem is,,,

Sin is sin. Period. Sexual sin is just as bad as stealing a piece of gum. That's a fact.

Why people pick homosexuality specifically to champion is beyond me. Maybe because society as a whole accepts the fact that stealing is wrong.

But honestly,, Why homosexuality specific? It's just as much a sin to be gay as it is to have sex out of wedlock.

Yet millions of people shack up and have kids and aren't married. But, we don't seem to have many trying to kick in doors to stop it. Is it because they're str8?

I think we should address sin as sin and not champion any one single cause.

It's obvious that a gay person shouldn't be a preacher or hold any position in church. But, that goes the same with adulterers, drukards, liars, thieves, etc etc etc.

Honestly, we should only be trying to keep it out of the kingdom of God. Those of us who are a part of it should be encouraging those others who are part of it to abstain from all sin.

Let the world be the world, let the church be the church. Those who want to hear let them hear, those who don't want to hear, don't force them.

If we let go of some aspects of Calvinism that's festered it's way into the church, we'll be lightyears away from where we are now.

We don't need to control the world!!!!!!!!!!

One quick point on how God views sins. Stealing petty things in the law required paying restitution. Sexual sins in the law required the people committing those sins to be put to death. Big difference. If God viewed the sins equivalent the punishment would have been equal. He does not and we should not either. He vied homosexuality, bestiality, and adultery equally.

People say all of the time that sin is sin and it is all the same in the eyes of God. If that was the case the requirement for all sin to be equal punishment wise.

I do agree that Calvinism is probably one of the biggest cults that has ever come into the Church because of it's teaching on things like grace which are extremely one sided and it's teachings on things like total depravity which says that name is so depraved that he is incapable of making his own decisions. Most of that it teaches is a lie. Just like the teachings that Calvinist have on the Sovereignty of God. They always like to argue that because he is Sovereign that nothing happens that is not orchestrated by Him. That leaves man with NO freewill. In truth man's free will is what gets him in trouble and allows him the ability to sin.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

One quick point on how God views sins. Stealing petty things in the law required paying restitution. Sexual sins in the law required the people committing those sins to be put to death. Big difference. If God viewed the sins equivalent the punishment would have been equal. He does not and we should not either. He vied homosexuality, bestiality, and adultery equally.

People say all of the time that sin is sin and it is all the same in the eyes of God. If that was the case the requirement for all sin to be equal punishment wise.

I do agree that Calvinism is probably one of the biggest cults that has ever come into the Church because of it's teaching on things like grace which are extremely one sided and it's teachings on things like total depravity which says that name is so depraved that he is incapable of making his own decisions. Most of that it teaches is a lie. Just like the teachings that Calvinist have on the Sovereignty of God. They always like to argue that because he is Sovereign that nothing happens that is not orchestrated by Him. That leaves man with NO freewill. In truth man's free will is what gets him in trouble and allows him the ability to sin.

I see what you're saying. You may be right,,,

If one man's only sin his whole life was stealing $1, and he didn't repent, or feel the need to repent, That's still enough to burn for is it not? Although, it does seem to be a harsh penalty.

Sexual sin does seem worse to us as well. It might be the lasting reprecussions for the actions. Then again, Jesus did say, "All other sins arou outside the body" apparently it's worse in a way because sexual sin is a sin against your own body.

Either way, I still don't understand the focus on homosexuality as compared to all the other sins that are just as bad, and openly spoken about and accepted by society. I do have to admit, there's something creepy to me about 2 women or 2 men being together. But, even comparing sins, Sexual immorality is sexual immorality,,, know what I mean?

 

[religusnut]

I see what you're saying. You may be right,,,

If one man's only sin his whole life was stealing $1, and he didn't repent, or feel the need to repent, That's still enough to burn for is it not? Although, it does seem to be a harsh penalty.

Sexual sin does seem worse to us as well. It might be the lasting reprecussions for the actions. Then again, Jesus did say, "All other sins arou outside the body" apparently it's worse in a way because sexual sin is a sin against your own body.

Either way, I still don't understand the focus on homosexuality as compared to all the other sins that are just as bad, and openly spoken about and accepted by society. I do have to admit, there's something creepy to me about 2 women or 2 men being together. But, even comparing sins, Sexual immorality is sexual immorality,,, know what I mean?

Stealing one dollar or one million dollars is not the issue when it comes to burning. The issue there is whether or not he has accepted Jesus Christ as Saviour.

 

[Robbie]

My favorite thing about homosexuals is by focusing on how bad their sin is it really helps me to trust in myself that I'm righteous, so I can despise others...

That's why my prayer usually starts out, "God, I thank You that I am not like other men... especially homosexuals"

 

[Fire-7]

My favorite thing about homosexuals is by focusing on how bad their sin is it really helps me to trust in myself that I'm righteous, so I can despise others...

That's why my prayer usually starts out, "God, I thank You that I am not like other men... especially homosexuals"

That prayer sounds familiar. Didn't one of the self righteous pharisees pray such a prayer?

 

[Robbie]

That prayer sounds familiar. Didn't one of the self righteous pharisees pray such a prayer?

exactly... haha... glad you caught the sarcasm = )

 

[Duckybill]

Arguing about which sin is worse is rather fruitless. Those who live sinful lives will not enter God's eternal Kingdom.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NKJV)
[sup]9 [/sup]Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, [sup]10 [/sup]nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

No Jiggy, they will not! Never.

 

[Robbie]

But what is it that makes us righteous?

Jesus talks about people who think righteousness comes from their own actions...

Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. [sup]11[/sup] The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. [sup]12[/sup] I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

If sinners aren't going to heaven no ones getting in... PERIOD!!!

Thanks to Jesus for becoming our righteousness... PERIOD!!!

 

[Duckybill]

But what is it that makes us righteous?

Jesus talks about people who think righteousness comes from their own actions...

Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. [sup]11[/sup] The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. [sup]12[/sup] I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

If sinners aren't going to heaven no ones getting in... PERIOD!!!

Thanks to Jesus for becoming our righteousness... PERIOD!!!

"[sup]9 [/sup]Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived."

 

[Robbie]

Do you not know you can't be righteous outside of His righteousness which is achieved through His blood covering your sins? Dont be decieved... and trust in yourself... youll just end up despising others... while you puff yourself up.

 

[Duckybill]

Do you not know you can't be righteous outside of His righteousness which is achieved through His blood covering your sins? Dont be decieved... and trust in yourself... youll just end up despising others... while you puff yourself up.

You're defending living a sinful life?

 

[Robbie]

Nope... I confess my sin... I say, "God be merciful to me a sinner" unlike the pharisee who trusted in himself that he was righteous.... I would say someone is more defending their sinful lifestyle when they aren't even willing to acknowledge their sin... actually believing they're living a sin free life... so what I'm doing is acknowledging the sinful state of humanity and recognizing that apart from Christ becoming our righteousness by covering our sins with His blood there is no hope of reconciliation.

Because of this I give Him all the GLORY because I recognize my salvation is only because of Him... this is not defending sin... this is recognizing sin... and seeing the need for salvation... and recognizing that is only possible by Christ becoming my righteousness.

If anyone wants to think they can enter the Kingdom based on their own righteousness I'd recommend they rethink that one... chances are someone who's a worst sinner than them will be justified before them if they simply are more willing to recognize their need.