A new heaven and a new earth

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Amazing Grace,

You must realise this “Heaven and Earth” are not literal here in Rev 21. Its a fist step in understanding the Revelation.

Don’t worry many misunderstand this passage they tend to overlook the destruction of the 'heavens' which is spoken about. This cannot be taken literally the heavens are God's dwelling place Ps 123:1 where there is no sinfulness Hab.1:13 Ps.65:4,5 and which declares God's glory (Ps 19:1) continuously. If Heaven refers to something "figurative" so must the 'earth'.

To put you at ease I have placed below some other scripture which also cannot be taken literally of the Heavens.

"I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void, and the heavens, and they had no light...For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land (of Israel) shall be desolate...For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black" (Jer.4:23-28).

This is a beautiful prophecy of the judgments to come upon the 'heavens and earth' of the land and people of Israel, for which they (not the literal heaven and earth) would mourn.

Jeremiah 4:23-28 refers to the land of Judea, not the whole world as you surmise. Most scholarly interpretations agree on this point. Your statement is incorrect. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the world in general, the end of time, or a parallel to anything in Revelations.

Heaven is defined as those ruling powers in authority and the earth their subjects, the general population of Israel. The earth (people) of Israel were in darkness because their Heavens (rulers) had put away Gods words and were not teaching their people to fear God and His commandments.

There are several definitions of Paradise, heaven, the heavenlies, etc. in the Bible. None of them make a direct link between the powers of heaven and the population of Israel. In fact, the only link that comes to mind is that of the Most High. God is established as the King of Israel in the O.T. and Jesus is given the same name on the day of His crucifixion. There are no other spiritual powers stated to rule over Israel that I'm aware of. Please provide chapter and verse if you have a correction.

Regarding spiritual influences upon the earth, however, there are N.T. references to 'powers and principalities', which is a description of the structure of the demonic kingdom upon the earth.

You stated that "the earth people of Israel were in darkness". In the O.T. the references are generally to rebellion, indirect references to passive indifference. I'm not aware of any O.T. references to people being in darkness because they turned their backs upon God. Once again I could be wrong here. If so, please provide chapter and verse quotations.

Moses had earlier addressed all Israel: "Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth" (Dt.32:1). Moses is not teaching those in Heaven. He is addressing two categories of people to whom he spoke: 1) "The elders of your tribes" and 2) "all the congregation of Israel" (Dt.31:28-30). The elders would then equate with the 'heavens' and the ordinary people with the 'earth'.

Isaiah opened his prophecy in similar style: "Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth...Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers...give ear unto the law of our God, ye people" (Isa 1:2 Isa 1:10). Again there is a parallel between the heavens and the rulers; and between the earth and the people.

Once again you are making a stretch with regard to the parallels you are drawing. Scholarly interpretations I've consulted (Gill & Wesley for this one) restrict the comments in both of your scripture passages to the people of Israel; the Hebrew tribes. The Heavens are being called to witness against the Hebrew people.

The heavens and earth mentioned as dissolving in Isaiah 13 refer to the people of Babylon. In a series of statements about Babylon we read that God "will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place...it shall be as the chased roe...they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land" (Is.13:13,14). The fleeing away of the heavens and earth is thus paralleled with that of the people. Heb. 9:26 speaks of the "end of the world" as occurring in the first century A.D. in the sense that the Jewish world was ending then.

Don't know what you mean by "the Jewish world was ending then". Please expand.

References to some massive destruction of Babylon are always interesting, since the city was never really destroyed. In fact, the town is actually being renewed or rebuilt on its ancient site WITH AMERICAN TAX PAYER MONEY. There are a number of links to it. Google 'rebuilding Bablyon'. Here's just one below for your amusement.

http://www.worldviewweekend.com/worldview-times/article.php?articleid=4613

The famous prophecy in Revelation about Babylon has the place being destroyed in a single hour. How could one destroy a city in a single hour? Easy. As we all know, you don't need a nuke these days. The hand of God isn't limited to military arms.

 

[Joshua David]

Hello Truth,


As promised, I will get to your reply. But there is a lot here, so it may take me a little while to get to it.. While I am working on my reply, I just wanted to make a point.

The Greek better renders "first" as "former" meaning the new Heaven and Earth must be at the conclusion of the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth, for verse Rev 21:4 suggests sin and death are swallowed up. Verse 4 relates to the conditions on the Earth during the 1000 years and are referred to in verse one as the former Heaven and former earth now ready to pass away. This "new heaven and new earth" is the "third heaven" referred to by Paul in relation to his vision of future glory (2 Cor 12:2).

I do not understand where you are coming up with the Greek better renders "first" as "former".


This is how Strong's Lexicon renders it.


protos - 1) first in time or placea) in any succession of things or persons

2) first in rank

a) influence, honour

B) chief

c) principal

3) first, at the first




[font="'trebuchet ms"]The word protos is used 104 times in the bible. The KJV renders it first 84 times, chief 9 times, first day 2, miscellaneously 7 times, and as the word former 2 times. I am not saying that you are wrong, I am just wondering where you got the information, or what led you to that conclusion.[/font]

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[font="'trebuchet ms"]Since most of your argument is based on the fact that the first heaven is the former Heaven, I believe this is a critical point.[/font]

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[font="'trebuchet ms"]Joshua David[/font]

[font="'trebuchet ms"] [/font]

 

[Duckybill]

Psst Duckybill "I is a girl".

Alrighty : )

 

[Alethos]

I do not understand where you are coming up with the Greek better renders "first" as "former".

Joshua David

Hi Joshua,

Rev 21:4And [sup]2532[/sup] God [sup]2316[/sup] shall wipe away [sup]1813[/sup] all [sup]3956[/sup] tears [sup]1144[/sup] from [sup]575[/sup] their [sup]846[/sup] eyes [sup]3788[/sup]; and [sup]2532[/sup] there shall be [sup]2071[/sup] no [sup]3756[/sup] more [sup]2089[/sup] death [sup]2288[/sup], neither [sup]3777[/sup] sorrow [sup]3997[/sup], nor [sup]3777[/sup] crying [sup]2906[/sup], neither [sup]3777[/sup] [sup]3756[/sup] shall there be [sup]2071[/sup] any more [sup]2089[/sup] pain [sup]4192[/sup]: for [sup]3754[/sup] the former things [sup]4413[/sup] are passed away [sup]565[/sup] .
Former things represents the former Heavens & Earth or constitution of things i.e Christ rulership on earth has now passed away and now death being the very last enemy and the first (Joshua) enemy is passed away.

The order of things is totally dissolved under Christ who achieved his mandate in the Earth and conquered sin, totally and utterly. Christ can now usher in a New (3rd and final) Heavens and Earth.

Again its understanding the context of verse 4 relating back to verse 1.

New Jerusalem respresents a new order of governece in the Earth having replaced the former (Christ's Kingdom) the fact no more sea (nations) is the a key to understanding that this New Jerusalem coming down is the final phase in the Kingdoms of Men being replace with the Kingdom of God on Earth.

You cant escape this becuase I Corinthina 15 speaks to the same final event.

The Scriptures are in total agreeance.

[sup]26[/sup] The last enemy to be destroyed is death. [sup]27[/sup] For he (God) “has put everything under his (Jesus) feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him (Jesus), it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. [sup]28[/sup] When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

This last section of scripture is speaking to Rev 21 where the former Heaven and Earth (under Christ) has been done away with and....

The Tabernalce of God is with men.

Alethos

ps...I thought this was very clear and straight forward?

Jeremiah 4:23-28 refers to the land of Judea, not the whole world as you surmise. Most scholarly interpretations agree on this point. Your statement is incorrect. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the world in general, the end of time, or a parallel to anything in Revelations.



There are several definitions of Paradise, heaven, the heavenlies, etc. in the Bible. None of them make a direct link between the powers of heaven and the population of Israel. In fact, the only link that comes to mind is that of the Most High. God is established as the King of Israel in the O.T. and Jesus is given the same name on the day of His crucifixion. There are no other spiritual powers stated to rule over Israel that I'm aware of. Please provide chapter and verse if you have a correction.

Regarding spiritual influences upon the earth, however, there are N.T. references to 'powers and principalities', which is a description of the structure of the demonic kingdom upon the earth.

You stated that "the earth people of Israel were in darkness". In the O.T. the references are generally to rebellion, indirect references to passive indifference. I'm not aware of any O.T. references to people being in darkness because they turned their backs upon God. Once again I could be wrong here. If so, please provide chapter and verse quotations.



Once again you are making a stretch with regard to the parallels you are drawing. Scholarly interpretations I've consulted (Gill & Wesley for this one) restrict the comments in both of your scripture passages to the people of Israel; the Hebrew tribes. The Heavens are being called to witness against the Hebrew people.




Don't know what you mean by "the Jewish world was ending then". Please expand.

References to some massive destruction of Babylon are always interesting, since the city was never really destroyed. In fact, the town is actually being renewed or rebuilt on its ancient site WITH AMERICAN TAX PAYER MONEY. There are a number of links to it. Google 'rebuilding Bablyon'. Here's just one below for your amusement.

http://www.worldview...?articleid=4613

The famous prophecy in Revelation about Babylon has the place being destroyed in a single hour. How could one destroy a city in a single hour? Easy. As we all know, you don't need a nuke these days. The hand of God isn't limited to military arms.

All your words trying to justify what I dont know??? youcant explain away truth.

The one point i made very cleary.

The scriptures often speak of Heavens and Earth "as" rulers and poeples.

Dont complicate the matter; just say yes i agree of or no I the dont.

Its that easy.

Alethos

Altheos,

How can I tell you this politely and in Love?

Let's see you have just insulted me and called me a heretic and now you want me to come back and play?

Here is an wonderful Australian saying for you that you should be able to fully understand:-
"In your dreams, mate!"

Did I call you a heretic?

I pointed out your understanding wasn’t complete. But if you choose to not participate in this forum that’s your free will. Its also your free will how you wish to behave and conduct yourself in this forum.

Proverbs 15:1 may apply here.

In the Masters service

Alethos

 

[Alethos]

Joshua,

Do you believe Christ will reign on earth for one thousand years?

"They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years".

At Christ's return, "the kingdoms of this world (will start to become- notice the grinding to powder of the image Dan 2) the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever" (Rev 11:15).

This is the Second Heaven and Earth. The former age where sin is still present but restrained under the rulership and guidance of Christ and the Saints.

Then at the time of the end of this 1000 year reign God's will and desires will be completely and openly performed in this earth. Hence Jesus' command for us to pray: "Thy kingdom come (that) Thy will be done in earth, as it is (now) in heaven" (Matt. 6:10). "kingdom of God" is a phrase interchangeable with "the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 13:11 cp. Mark 4:11).

This is the Third Heaven and Earth which shall never be replaced.

We must remember God is not concerned with the Kingdoms of Men - His main focus is His Kingdom which began under Saul (the king they choose) but more so under David (The Lords anointed).

So the Kingdom of God is styled "Heaven and Earth" and it looks like this.

1. Kingdom of Israel (First Heaven and Earth)
2. Christ and the Saints 1000 years (Second Heaven and Earth)
3. God being "all in all" the Tabernacle of God is finally with man on earth. This is the final Heaven and Earth...where its rulers and peoples will lived eternally in Eden restored and what happens into eternity no one really knows. But I eagerly await this time Joshua.

Each of these phases is the great Bible Narrative which teaches how this humble little Kingdom of Israel will one day fill the entire earth.

Alethos

 

[Alethos]

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

"But the fearful" Gr. deilos, "cowards." The truth demands both mental and moral courage. All cowards will be excluded from the Kingdom.

"And unbelieving" This was the cause of many in Israel failing to enter the land of promise (Heb 3:18). We honour God by respecting His Word which

He has magnified above all His name (Psa 138:2). The word is apistos, and signifies "faithless." A person can "believe" a doctrine academically and yet

be faithless. That was Israel's failure. Faith comes by generating confidence in Gods promises through study of the word (Rom. 10:17 Heb. 11:1,6).

"The abominable"—Gr. Bdelussomai from bdeo, "to stink," to cause one to turn away in disgust. A kindred word in Luke 16:15 is used to describe that which is highly esteemed among men, but which is abhorrent in the sight of God.

"And murderers"—A murderer, in a figurative sense, is described as one who hates his brother without cause (1 John 3:15).

"And whoremongers"—The unfaithful who make friends with the world are described as adultresses (James 4:4).

"And sorcerers"—Gr. pharmakeus. A related word is rendered "witchcraft" in Gal. 5:20. The root word implies the removing of an evil, or the inflicting of one, usually by use of a drug. Heretical doctrines can act as a drug, dulling the mind to the realities of life and of true religion.

"And idolators"—Idolatry is refusing to heed the Word of God (1 Sam. 15:23), or of covetously serving self to the exclusion of the Truth (Col. 3:5).

"And all liars" Those that teach false doctrines are here named and counted as a liars. 1 John 2:4,22; 1 John 4:20; 1 John 5:10.

"Shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death"

These numerous people will share the fate of the world which they loved so much during their probation on earth.

You will note how Jesus expresses “death”, he likens it to a lake which burn with fire and brimstone. In other words Jesus is giving death the most severe expression to explain its finality.

Alethos

 

[Alethos]

The Relationship of Jerusalem to the Lamb Revelation 21: 9-11

The first eight verses of Rev 21:1-8 took us beyond the millennium age 1000 year reign of Christ where his rulership eventuated in death being destroyed forever, and sin abolished from the earth. From verse 9 onwards, a new vision commences.

The Spirit takes John back to the commencement of Christ's earthly reign to trace the development of the New Jerusalem whose final glory he has been shown already in Rev 21:1-8.

This is the final vision of The Revelation, which in the course of its unfolding has revealed the holy city comes under considerable persecution (Rev. 11:12); which occurs at the beginning of the millennium age (the vision now before us), and at the conclusion of it (Rev. 21:1-8). Now we are shown the significant that the symbology of the spiritual Temple-city now reveal and based on the details found in the literal Temple of Ezekiel in chapters 40-48.

Ezekiel’s Temple was never constructed and forms part of the work in the millennium age. (See in my images for sketches of the temple). This will be the temple which nations come up to year on year offer praise and to learn of Gods ways.

Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

"And there came unto me one of the seven angels that had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues" The introduction of this vision by one of the angels of the vials suggests that the time period of its fulfilment is at the return of Christ (Rev. 16:15). It will be during the period of the 7th vial that the new Jerusalem will be first revealed. It is also during the seventh vial that Jesus Christ returns to the earth. A great deal of events take place in this seventh vial, too many to mention here but to name a few. Marraige of the Lamb, Preparation for war Rev 10, Arab Nations subdued, Apostate Churches admonished, Nations disciplined, Judah refined and Israel regathered and many more.

We havnt time here to expound Rev 16 needless to say we are in the period of the seventh vial and Jesus Christ will return like a thief to his household.

"And talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife"—This is new Jerusalem made up of a company of redeemed, the saints of the Most High God. See Rev. 19:7.

Alethos

 

[Joshua David]

Truth,

I do see what you are trying to say, but I am having a little trouble following your premise. You claim that the New Heaven and New Earth is the Third Heaven, and yet you don't provide scripture that says this.

In fact the only time that the 'Third Heaven is used in the scripture is when Paul said he was caught up to the third Heaven 14 years ago. 2 Cor 12:2. There is nothing in the scripture to imply that God transported him through time into the future. Now understand, I am not saying that God couldn't do this, I am just saying that scripture does not imply it.

Also I provided scripture evidence for the air, or atmosphere to be considered the first Heaven. Gen 1:8 Now please provide Chapter and verse that calls Israel the first Heaven and Earth.

Your whole theory seems to be based on the word protos being rendered as former, which I refuted by pointing out that out of the 104 times that the word is used in the bible, 84 times it is rendered first. Only 2 times is it rendered former. And as proof that I was wrong you posted one of the two times that it is rendered former.

[font="'trebuchet ms"]But in a sense I do agree with you that the current Heaven will be considered the former Heaven, when God creates the New Heaven and New Earth, I am just having trouble understanding how this proves your point.[/font]
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[font="'trebuchet ms"]Waiting for your reply[/font]
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[font="'trebuchet ms"]Joshua David
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[[email protected]]

The one point i made very cleary.

The scriptures often speak of Heavens and Earth "as" rulers and poeples.

Dont complicate the matter; just say yes i agree of or no I the dont.

One can agree or disagree, providing that the point is understood.
Despite your insistance, your point is not well made.

The scriptures do NOT "often speak of Heavens and Earth as rulers and peoples".
If you wish to be clear, then quote chapter and verse. I for one have no idea what you're talking about.

There is more than one heaven and although there is only one earth, there are multiple rulers and peoples on it.
Not all are good, not all are following the wishes of the Almighty and not all are spoken of in the Bible.

 

[Alethos]

One can agree or disagree, providing that the point is understood.
Despite your insistance, your point is not well made.

The scriptures do NOT "often speak of Heavens and Earth as rulers and peoples".
If you wish to be clear, then quote chapter and verse. I for one have no idea what you're talking about.

There is more than one heaven and although there is only one earth, there are multiple rulers and peoples on it.
Not all are good, not all are following the wishes of the Almighty and not all are spoken of in the Bible.

Agreed.

Provided we understand the former "Heaven and Earth" here spoken in Rev 21 are not literal but speaking of the progression of Gods Kingdom on Earth throughout its three phases.

Like I made quite clear - it’s nonsensical to think the Almighty needs to destroy his abode, why? there is nothing wrong with His dwelling place.

His focus is entirely on earth.

Alethos

 

[Alethos]

Rev 21:10 And he carried me (John) away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,

"And he carried me away In the spirit" Ezekiel was also carried in spirit from captivity in Babylonia to view the literal city of Jerusalem in its future glory (Ezek. 40:2) Likewise John was conveyed from his place of banishment in Patmos to view the glory of the future spiritual city.

"To a great and high mountain" Ezekiel saw the literal mountain (Ezek. 40:2) as it will be after the earthquake shall have elevated Zion (Zech. 14:4,10). John saw spiritual Zion (Heb. 12:22), after the political earthquake will elevate it (Rev 16:18). The symbol of the Kingdom of God is a "mountain filling the whole earth" (Dan. 2:35). See also Isaiah 2:2-4.

"And shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem" John saw a Temple city as is suggested by the adjective holy. It was like its literal counterpart seen by the prophets: a city "built to God" (Jer 31:38). The one seen by John is composed of living persons (2 Cor. 6:16; 1 Pet. 2:4-8).

"Descending out of heaven from God" See note on verse 2. The "house from heaven" will be clothed upon the approved both at pre-millennial as at post-millennial times (2 Cor. 5:1-4), and therefore, appropriately, on both occasions the "city" is represented as "descending out of heaven."

Alethos

 

[Joshua David]

Rev 21:10 And he carried me (John) away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,

"And he carried me away In the spirit" Ezekiel was also carried in spirit from captivity in Babylonia to view the literal city of Jerusalem in its future glory (Ezek. 40:2) Likewise John was conveyed from his place of banishment in Patmos to view the glory of the future spiritual city.

"To a great and high mountain" Ezekiel saw the literal mountain (Ezek. 40:2) as it will be after the earthquake shall have elevated Zion (Zech. 14:4,10). John saw spiritual Zion (Heb. 12:22), after the political earthquake will elevate it (Rev 16:18). The symbol of the Kingdom of God is a "mountain filling the whole earth" (Dan. 2:35). See also Isaiah 2:2-4.

"And shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem" John saw a Temple city as is suggested by the adjective holy. It was like its literal counterpart seen by the prophets: a city "built to God" (Jer 31:38). The one seen by John is composed of living persons (2 Cor. 6:16; 1 Pet. 2:4-8).

"Descending out of heaven from God" See note on verse 2. The "house from heaven" will be clothed upon the approved both at pre-millennial as at post-millennial times (2 Cor. 5:1-4), and therefore, appropriately, on both occasions the "city" is represented as "descending out of heaven."

Alethos

Truth,

Was this reply in response to rjp's post or mine? I am having trouble understanding your point?

Joshua David

 

[Alethos]

Truth,

Was this reply in response to rjp's post or mine? I am having trouble understanding your point?

Joshua David

This is a continuation of the study of Rev 21.

If you look you will see verse 10.

Sorry Joshua, I didn’t see your earlier reply. will read and reply shortly.

Take care

Alethos

 

[Alethos]

Truth,

I do see what you are trying to say, but I am having a little trouble following your premise. You claim that the New Heaven and New Earth is the Third Heaven, and yet you don't provide scripture that says this.

In fact the only time that the 'Third Heaven is used in the scripture is when Paul said he was caught up to the third Heaven 14 years ago. 2 Cor 12:2. There is nothing in the scripture to imply that God transported him through time into the future. Now understand, I am not saying that God couldn't do this, I am just saying that scripture does not imply it.

Also I provided scripture evidence for the air, or atmosphere to be considered the first Heaven. Gen 1:8 Now please provide Chapter and verse that calls Israel the first Heaven and Earth.

Your whole theory seems to be based on the word protos being rendered as former, which I refuted by pointing out that out of the 104 times that the word is used in the bible, 84 times it is rendered first. Only 2 times is it rendered former. And as proof that I was wrong you posted one of the two times that it is rendered former.

But in a sense I do agree with you that the current Heaven will be considered the former Heaven, when God creates the New Heaven and New Earth, I am just having trouble understanding how this proves your point.


Waiting for your reply


Joshua David

Hi Joshua,

Prepared this morning from Isaiah 65...I am praying and hoping "all" will become clear

New Heavens and a New Earth

Isaiah 65:17“See, I will (future tense) create new heavens and a new earth. The former (order of) things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

So God is saying that the current Heavens and Earth (Israel) will not be remembered because a New Heavens and New Earth are coming at some future time. This “I will create” is speaking to the time when Christ and the Saints will rule in the Earth. And remember He is speaking to Israel here in Isaiah 65.

How can this be proven?

The New Heavens and Earth are defined below as God proceeds to define what this "New Heavens and Earth" through His eyes.

[sup]18[/sup] But be glad and rejoice forever in what I will create, for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight and its people a joy.

Jerusalem has long been the capital of Israel and the centre of governance in the land. It is here that Gods eyes are continually focused. "give him no rest till he establishes Jerusalem and makes her the praise of the earth" (Isa. 62:7). Jerusalem is the beginning of His Kingdom on earth; although it was overruled by wicked men and divided, He has plans for this nation to be reconciled into one Nation, no more tw:, Ezek 37:15-17 and many other verses.

[sup]19[/sup] I (God) will rejoice over Jerusalem and take delight in my people; the sound of weeping and of crying will be heard in it no more.

Here is Rev 21:4 speaking the same time of Christ rule which is the 2[sup]nd[/sup] Heavens and Earth which states clearly this Heavens and Earth will also pass away allowing the last (third and final) Heavens and Earth as presented in Rev 21:1.

[sup]20[/sup] “Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach[sup][a][/sup] a hundred will be considered accursed. [sup]21[/sup] They will build houses and dwell in them; they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit. [sup]22[/sup] No longer will they build houses and others live in them, or plant and others eat. For as the days of a tree, so will be the days of my people; my chosen ones will long enjoy the work of their hands. [sup]23[/sup] They will not labor in vain, nor will they bear children doomed to misfortune; for they will be a people blessed by the LORD, they and their descendants with them.

So sin and death will still be in the Earth. We can be absolutely confident this section of Scripture is talking about the millennium age for this one simple reason.. Death has not been swallowed up. And this Kingdom is yet to handed to the Father in all it perfection.

[sup]24[/sup] Before they call I will answer; while they are still speaking I will hear.[sup]25[/sup] The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, and dust will be the serpent’s food.

Access to God through prayer will be increased as Jesus promised.

Question: Why is the curse from the animals removed, but not the seperate curse given to the serpent? In other words the carnivorous animals no longer consume one another, but the poor serpent is left upon his belly to eat dust?

I think you will find Joshua the serpent will forever stand as a symbol of fleshly carnal thinking. And that mind Joshua, can never be change! A new mind or way of thinking can be adopted but the serpent mind will always be emnity with God. Read John 8 and see how Jesus is teaching this fundamental lesson to the Pharisees who were titled vipers.

Their Father is the serpent (in mind) and it, will not, cannot, hear the words of God.

This Heaven and Earth reveal’s that sin is still present, although restrained under the rulership of Christ and the saints. At the conclusion of this age the serpent, sin, death, carnal thinking will be utterly destroyed opening the way for the last mentioned Heavens and Earth (the Third and final stage in the Kingdom of God on the Earth).

In summary,

1. God speaking to Israel in Isa 65 is the first Heavens and Earth – the beginning of the Kingdom of God on Earth.

2. Here is Isaiah 65 God is speaking about the demise of the Jewish Heavens and Earth upon the return of Jesus Christ to the Earth which is the second Heavens and Earth.

3. Rev 21 is now pointing back to Christ’s Kingdom which will also pass away ushering in the New Heavens and Earth where now for the first time in the history of this creation Gods Tent dwelling place is with men.

Isaiah 65 – Jewish Kingdom and its end– Christs Kingdom - ?????? Third Heavens and Earth ???????.

I Corinthians 15 – Christs Kingdom with its end – The beginning of the third Heavens and Earth

Rev 21 – Christs Kingdom – God's Kingdom for eternity.

They (people of the earth) will neither harm nor destroy on “all” my holy mountain,” says the LORD.

You could argue that this final statement in Isaiah 65 is descriptive of the Third and Final Heavens and Earth. Because we know sin will be released at the end of the 1000 years and yes, many will be destroyed upon the mountains of Israel in that day. If you are comfortable with this statement, that Gods intent for his holy mountain is one of total peace on Earth. Then you could safely interpret all three phases (Heavens and Earth) are held within Isaiah 65.

1. Israel – 2. Christ – 3. God

I believe the interpretation is true and correct.

Alethos

Ps. I do hope Amazing Grace can see this wonderful vision.

 

[Alethos]

Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

"Having the glory of God"—That Glory is promised to the saints in (John 17:22), and will be revealed at the coming of the Lord in (2 Thess. 1:10). Paul also taught that we are "in hope of the glory of God" (Rom. 5:2), and the Lord promised that he would name the name of God on those who overcome (Rev. 3:12). The glory of the spiritual Jerusalem will beautify the literal Temple (see photo under my images), for Ezekiel saw the multitudinous Christ coming from the "way of the east" and filling it with glory (Ezek 43:3-4).

"And her light was like unto a stone most precious” This "most precious stone" relates to the Lord Jesus, of whose "likeness" the Bride of Christ will partake. He is the measuring rod of glory and light for all the elect, for he comes "to be glorified in his saints" (2 Thess.1:10). The word "light" is strictly luminary or light giver. It is used figuratively of believers as shining in the spiritual darkness of the world (Phil.2:15), but here it is used of Christ, as the light reflected in and shining through the New Jerusalem, his Bride (Rev 21:9, 13). These who shine forth as lights today, will do so in the future. Connect with Isa.24:13-15, where "fires" should be lights. "Even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal" The Jasper Stone is representative of Christ (Rev 4:3). It is described as "clear as crystal" indicative of the finest quality gem. The statement "clear as crystal" is one word in the Greek: krustallizo — to shine like crystal, to be of crystalline brightness. "The verb may, however, have a transitive force, signifying to crystallise, or cause to become like crystal. In that case, it would speak of Christ (since he is the Lightgiver see the preceding part of the verse) as the one who causes the saints to shine in his own likeness" (Dan 12:3: "They that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament")

Alethos

 

[Alethos]

2 Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

I wonder if Paul at the same time as this 'vision and revelation' in Acts 18:9 have the same view into the Kingdom that Christ on earth that was given Peter, James and John at the transfiguration (Mat 16:28)?"

"Caught up" is the Greek word Harpazo which doesn’t mean "up" but AWAY: Joh 10:28,29. Most scholars agree with this interpretation.

The Third Heaven and earth is certainly symbolic of ruling powers as is Isa 14:4,12; Isa 34:4-10) and can speak of a kingdoms subjects (Rev 6:13; Rev 12:16).

Having explained Isaiah 65 and Rev 21 this is specifically the 3rd "heavens":

(1) Mosaic (Deu 32:1; Isa 1:2)
(2) Millennium (Isa 65:17,18),
(3) "All in all" (1Co 15:24-28).

The Scriptures provide us a wonderful picture of the Kingdoms of Men one day being replaced with the Kingdom of God. Third Heaven explained below from Dan 7.

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man (Jesus) came with the clouds of heaven (Saints), and came to the Ancient of days (God), and they brought him near before him.

Dan 7:14 And there was given him (God) dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

God becomes "ALL IN ALL" and the Tabernacle of God is with men.

Its interesting this period of time being eternity is is never uttered, almost like mans fleshly mind cannot fathom the depth of its beauty and holiness.

2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

2Co 12:5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
Its like Paul is in a dreamlike state, caught in God's power for purpose of revelation. In vision, in trance (Act 10:10).

The new life is a wonderful life: it is one of majestic vision; of mighty purposes, and of unsurpassed worth. There are times when we see these things of the spirit so clearly and in such beauty that we are uplifted by them and can sympathize with the feelings of the apostle Paul who wrote of a time when 'he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words which it is not lawful for a man to utter.'

Imagine a time when these moments of absolute exaltation will be our very lives.

A marvelous vision

Alethos

 

[Joshua David]

Hi Joshua,

[font="tahoma][size="2"]New Heavens and a New Earth

Isaiah 65:17“See, I will (future tense) create new heavens and a new earth. The former (order of) things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

So God is saying that the current Heavens and Earth (Israel) will not be remembered because a New Heavens and New Earth are coming at some future time. This “I will create” is speaking to the time when Christ and the Saints will rule in the Earth. And remember He is speaking to Israel here in Isaiah 65.

How can this be proven?

The New Heavens and Earth are defined below as God proceeds to define what this "New Heavens and Earth" through His eyes.

[sup]18[/sup] But be glad and rejoice forever in what I will create, for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight and its people a joy.

Jerusalem has long been the capital of Israel and the centre of governance in the land. It is here that Gods eyes are continually focused. "give him no rest till he establishes Jerusalem and makes her the praise of the earth" (Isa. 62:7). Jerusalem is the beginning of His Kingdom on earth; although it was overruled by wicked men and divided, He has plans for this nation to be reconciled into one Nation, no more tw:, Ezek 37:15-17 and many other verses.[/size][/font]

Truth,

I want you to know that I have read your posts three or four times, to try to understand exactly where you are coming from, so that I do not knowingly take your words out of context when I reply.

I tried very hard to follow your train of thought, and every time, I seem to run into a disconnect somewhere. From what I am reading, you are committing a logical fallacy. Please don't take offence, allow me to explain what I am talking about.

First let me give an example of the fallacy and then I will try to explain why I believe it applies to your argument. I forget exactly what this exact type of fallacy is called but basically it is saying that two things are the same thing if they share the same characteristic.
For instance, suppose I stated that :

A: Little Johnny's favorite toy is red.
B: The toy car is red.
Therefore
C: Little Johnny's favorite toy is the toy car.


This is a logical fallacy, since proving that the car is red and Johnny's favorite toy is red, does not mean that his favorite toy is the toy car. It could very well be the red ball. Now I want to state here that just because this is a logical fallacy, this does not mean that it is untrue. After all, Little Johnny's favorite toy could have been the red car all along, all this means is that you haven't proven your point to be true.

Now I will attempt to explain how this relates to your post. Please correct me if I am taking your reply out of context.

[font="tahoma] [/font][/color][/font]
[font="Verdana"][font="tahoma][size="3"]

So God is saying that the current Heavens and Earth (Israel) will not be remembered because a New Heavens and New Earth are coming at some future time

[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma] [/font][/color][/font]
[size="2"]This is basically what you are saying in debate form.[/size]

A: The first (current ) Heaven and earth will not be remembered
B: Israel will not be remembered
therefore
C: The First Heaven and Earth is Israel.

This is the logical fallacy that I see. Just because they share the same characteristic of not being remembered and being a part of the former things, does not mean that they are the same thing.

After all, I do not believe that the United States will not be remembered either. Does that mean that the United States is the former Heaven and Earth?

Also Israel did not exist for nearly 1500 years, does that mean that Heaven and Earth passed away for nearly 1500 years?

There is no scripture that ties the first Heaven and Earth with Israel. Nor is there a scripture that ties the second Heaven and Earth to the Millennium Reign of Christ.

[font="tahoma]Now do I believe that there are three Heavens? Yes. Do I believe that the world's governments will eventually pass away and not be remembered? Yes. Do I believe that Christ is soon to return to set up his Millennium Kingdom? Yes. Do I believe that Jesus will create a New Heaven and New Earth? Yes.
[font="tahoma] [/font]
[font="tahoma]But none of that proves your point that Israel is the current Heaven and Earth.[/font]
[font="tahoma] [/font]
[font="tahoma]Joshua David[/font]

 

[Alethos]

Hi Joshua,

First of all let me ask you a question.

Who is God speaking to in Isaiah 65:17?

Isaiah 65:17“See, I (God) will (future tense) create new heavens and a new earth. The former (order of) things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

So in the mind of your average Jew he is immediately connecting the former order of things i.e. Israel and their Rulers because this is the subject in mention.

What are the former things which will not be remembered? what will not come to mind when this new Heavens and Earth is established?

If God is going to create something NEW what was the OLD? The same question could be asked in Rev 21.

My logic suggests that the former order of things will be replaced with a NEW order of things?

Maybe that’s a better way of considering verse 17.

Another saying you will be familiar with is "out with the old in with the New.

Those despicable Kings who defiled Israel will no longer be left to guide His people. He will bring about real change which is the subject of Isaiah 65.

Lets leave it there for now and see if I have explained this any better

Alethos.

ps. You might ask the question "what is the relationship between the former order of things AND the new Heavens and Earth?

(1) Mosaic (Deut 32:1; Isa 1:2)
(2) Millennium (Isa 65:17,18),
(3) "All in all" (1Co 15:24-28).

 

[Alethos]

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[whitestone]

I sure am enjoying eternal life in His new heavens and new earth. I can't hardly wait until He finishes it