Azygous Assembly

[Netchaplain]

Certain schools of theology, mainly Covenant (a), contend that the Church in her present form is but a continuation of God’s one purpose from the beginning of the human family (b). They speak of an “Old Testament Church” and seek to relate this to the one Body that constitutes the New Testament revelation (c). The fact that Jews (O.T. Jews—NC) are invited into fellowship in one Body with Gentiles is no warrant for the belief that O.T. saints are included in this new divine purpose.

Arguments for an O.T. church are usually based on: 1. the fact that the O.T. sacrifices looked forward to Christ; 2. that Israel was a sanctified nation; 3. that there was a godly remnant in each of Israel’s generations; 4. that the Septuagint translates the word which indicates an assembly of gathering of people by the word ekkleesia.

These arguments are insufficient at every point: 1. The sacrifice of Christ serves for both dispensations and looks backward (d) as well and forward (Rom 3:25, 26); 2. There are multiplied distinctions to be drawn between Israel and the Church whereby they are seen to be different in almost every particular. 3. The remnant were none other than members of the nation with no special privilege (e). 4. The word ekkleesia is properly used of a gathering of people at anytime and anywhere, but this does not constitute any congregation in Israel to be the Body and Bride of Christ (f).

The assertions that the N.T. mystery in Christ is composed of all saints in all ages (even O.T. saints—NC) seems to lack a consideration of the issues involved. If the Church is a continuous purpose of God throughout the dispensations, why the rent veil (which allowed direct access without the high priest—NC)? Why Pentecost (to take a believer from carnal to spiritual by the Holy Spirit using a new nature—NC)? Why the distinctive messages of the Epistles which are properly identified as Church truth (containing doctrines not accessible to non-Christians—NC)?

Why the present headship and ministry of Christ in heaven (related only to the Church in Christ—NC)? Why the visitation of the Gentiles now and not before? Why the present indwelling of the Holy Spirit of all who believe? Why the baptism of the Spirit, unique in the N.T.? Why only earthly promises to Israel, and only heavenly promises to the Church? Why did Christ confine His earthly ministry to Israel (Mat 15:24) and yet in the end of that ministry direct His disciples to go into all the world?

Why should the divinely-given rule of life be changed from law to grace? Why is Israel likened to the repudiated wife of Jehovah (Isa 54:5), and the Church likened to the espoused Bride of Christ? Why the new day—“the day of Christ” (Phl 1:10; 2:16; 2Th 2:2)—with its rapture and resurrection of believers, with its rewards for service and suffering (1Co 3:14, 15)—a day never seen in the O.T.? Why the mysteries in the N.T., including that new Body in Christ?

Why the New Creation (2Co 5:17; Gal 6:15) comprising, as it does, of all those who by the Spirit are joined to the Lord and so forever in Christ? How could there be a Church, constructed as she is, until the death of Christ, the resurrection of Christ, the ascension of Christ and the Day of Pentecost? How could the Church, in which there is neither Jew nor Gentile, be any part of Israel in this or any other age?

If these questions, and the many more that might be propounded, are answered from the Scriptures, the conclusion must be that the Church, the New Creation in Christ, which is made up of both Jew and Gentile, is a new purpose of God and constitutes the primary divine objective of this dispensation (which the prior dispensation led to—NC).


—Lewis Sperry Chafer (1871-1952)






a. Covenant theology mistakenly teaches that all of the O.T. saints that are not Christians will also share in the blessings of being part of the Body and Bride of Christ—NC.

b. i.e. beginning with Adam until now—NC.

c. N.T. revelation that Jewish and Gentile Christians are the Body and Bride of Christ—NC.

d. O.T. saints were forgiven (accepted of God) as they believed in the sin sacrifices offered by the priests (Num 15:25), but this did not lead to an establishment in Christianity, it just directed to it (Gal 3:24, 25):
and the majority of the Jews chose to disbelieve in Christ. They knew the sacrifices lead to One who was coming that would deliver them from sin but didn’t believe or know it was the Lord Jesus—NC.

e. Israel assumed she would have special privileges because they were Abraham’s decedents. Though this was true at one time (Rom 9:4, 5), but not now during the absence of fellowship with God for not believing in Christ. There will be a restoration for God’s people Israel, but it will not involve the blessing of Son-ship, with God being their Father. The Father will continue as being their “Husband” (Isa 54:5, 6; Jer 3:14; Hos 2:20).

f. It’s acceptable to consider the congregation of Israel as a church in God, but not part of “the Church” in Christ—which is of the Body and Bride of Christ. Most Israelites do not believe in Christ and therefore are not part of His Body or Church (Col 1:18)—NC).





MJS daily devotional for December 28

“The teachings of the kingdom (as illustrated in the Sermon on the Mount) have not yet been applied to any man. Since they anticipate the binding of Satan, a purified earth, the restoration of Israel, and the personal reign of the King, they cannot be applied until God’s appointed time when these accompanying conditions on the earth have been brought to pass.

“The kingdom laws will be addressed to Israel and beyond them to all nations which will enter the kingdom. It will be the first and only universal reign of righteousness and peace in the history of the world. One nation was in view when the Law of Moses was in force on the earth; the individual is in view during this age of grace; and the whole social structure of mankind will be in view when the kingdom is established on earth.

“Christianity is totally opposed to Judaism, and any mixture of the two must result in the loss of all that is vital in the present plan of salvation. One made its appeal to the limited resources of the natural man and conditioned his life on the earth; the other sets aside the natural man, secures a whole new creation in Christ Jesus, and counsels that new being in his pilgrim journey to his heavenly home.

“The Jewish nation is the center of all things related to the earth. The Church is foreign to the earth and related to it only as a witnessing people. They are strangers and pilgrims, ambassadors whose citizenship is in heaven.”

None But The Hungry Heart

—Lewis Sperry Chafer

 

[Cyd]

Certain schools of theology, mainly Covenant (a), contend that the Church in her present form is but a continuation of God’s one purpose from the beginning of the human family (b). They speak of an “Old Testament Church” and seek to relate this to the one Body that constitutes the New Testament revelation (c). The fact that Jews (O.T. Jews—NC) are invited into fellowship in one Body with Gentiles is no warrant for the belief that O.T. saints are included in this new divine purpose.

Arguments for an O.T. church are usually based on: 1. the fact that the O.T. sacrifices looked forward to Christ; 2. that Israel was a sanctified nation; 3. that there was a godly remnant in each of Israel’s generations; 4. that the Septuagint translates the word which indicates an assembly of gathering of people by the word ekkleesia.

These arguments are insufficient at every point: 1. The sacrifice of Christ serves for both dispensations and looks backward (d) as well and forward (Rom 3:25, 26); 2. There are multiplied distinctions to be drawn between Israel and the Church whereby they are seen to be different in almost every particular. 3. The remnant were none other than members of the nation with no special privilege (e). 4. The word ekkleesia is properly used of a gathering of people at anytime and anywhere, but this does not constitute any congregation in Israel to be the Body and Bride of Christ (f).

The assertions that the N.T. mystery in Christ is composed of all saints in all ages (even O.T. saints—NC) seems to lack a consideration of the issues involved. If the Church is a continuous purpose of God throughout the dispensations, why the rent veil (which allowed direct access without the high priest—NC)? Why Pentecost (to take a believer from carnal to spiritual by the Holy Spirit using a new nature—NC)? Why the distinctive messages of the Epistles which are properly identified as Church truth (containing doctrines not accessible to non-Christians—NC)?

Why the present headship and ministry of Christ in heaven (related only to the Church in Christ—NC)? Why the visitation of the Gentiles now and not before? Why the present indwelling of the Holy Spirit of all who believe? Why the baptism of the Spirit, unique in the N.T.? Why only earthly promises to Israel, and only heavenly promises to the Church? Why did Christ confine His earthly ministry to Israel (Mat 15:24) and yet in the end of that ministry direct His disciples to go into all the world?

Why should the divinely-given rule of life be changed from law to grace? Why is Israel likened to the repudiated wife of Jehovah (Isa 54:5), and the Church likened to the espoused Bride of Christ? Why the new day—“the day of Christ” (Phl 1:10; 2:16; 2Th 2:2)—with its rapture and resurrection of believers, with its rewards for service and suffering (1Co 3:14, 15)—a day never seen in the O.T.? Why the mysteries in the N.T., including that new Body in Christ?

Why the New Creation (2Co 5:17; Gal 6:15) comprising, as it does, of all those who by the Spirit are joined to the Lord and so forever in Christ? How could there be a Church, constructed as she is, until the death of Christ, the resurrection of Christ, the ascension of Christ and the Day of Pentecost? How could the Church, in which there is neither Jew nor Gentile, be any part of Israel in this or any other age?

If these questions, and the many more that might be propounded, are answered from the Scriptures, the conclusion must be that the Church, the New Creation in Christ, which is made up of both Jew and Gentile, is a new purpose of God and constitutes the primary divine objective of this dispensation (which the prior dispensation led to—NC).


—Lewis Sperry Chafer (1871-1952)






a. Covenant theology mistakenly teaches that all of the O.T. saints that are not Christians will also share in the blessings of being part of the Body and Bride of Christ—NC.

b. i.e. beginning with Adam until now—NC.

c. N.T. revelation that Jewish and Gentile Christians are the Body and Bride of Christ—NC.

d. O.T. saints were forgiven (accepted of God) as they believed in the sin sacrifices offered by the priests (Num 15:25), but this did not lead to an establishment in Christianity, it just directed to it (Gal 3:24, 25):
and the majority of the Jews chose to disbelieve in Christ. They knew the sacrifices lead to One who was coming that would deliver them from sin but didn’t believe or know it was the Lord Jesus—NC.

e. Israel assumed she would have special privileges because they were Abraham’s decedents. Though this was true at one time (Rom 9:4, 5), but not now during the absence of fellowship with God for not believing in Christ. There will be a restoration for God’s people Israel, but it will not involve the blessing of Son-ship, with God being their Father. The Father will continue as being their “Husband” (Isa 54:5, 6; Jer 3:14; Hos 2:20).

f. It’s acceptable to consider the congregation of Israel as a church in God, but not part of “the Church” in Christ—which is of the Body and Bride of Christ. Most Israelites do not believe in Christ and therefore are not part of His Body or Church (Col 1:18)—NC).





MJS daily devotional for December 28

“The teachings of the kingdom (as illustrated in the Sermon on the Mount) have not yet been applied to any man. Since they anticipate the binding of Satan, a purified earth, the restoration of Israel, and the personal reign of the King, they cannot be applied until God’s appointed time when these accompanying conditions on the earth have been brought to pass.

“The kingdom laws will be addressed to Israel and beyond them to all nations which will enter the kingdom. It will be the first and only universal reign of righteousness and peace in the history of the world. One nation was in view when the Law of Moses was in force on the earth; the individual is in view during this age of grace; and the whole social structure of mankind will be in view when the kingdom is established on earth.

“Christianity is totally opposed to Judaism, and any mixture of the two must result in the loss of all that is vital in the present plan of salvation. One made its appeal to the limited resources of the natural man and conditioned his life on the earth; the other sets aside the natural man, secures a whole new creation in Christ Jesus, and counsels that new being in his pilgrim journey to his heavenly home.

“The Jewish nation is the center of all things related to the earth. The Church is foreign to the earth and related to it only as a witnessing people. They are strangers and pilgrims, ambassadors whose citizenship is in heaven.”

None But The Hungry Heart

—Lewis Sperry Chafer

Why do you post this stuff? Do you follow this man's teachings?, looks like a lot a unanswered questions to me. I did a web search for this Assembly name and only find it posted on different christian forums... Did you post them also? So I looked up the man by name and wikipedia has info about him, but not this name assembly. You should start a free website blog on blogspot.com post his stuff.

Me I follow Messiah Yeshua(Jesus) I have blogs about that. So what do you want us to do with this info? Salvation isn't mentioned.

 

[Netchaplain]

Why do you post this stuff? Do you follow this man's teachings?, looks like a lot a unanswered questions to me. I did a web search for this Assembly name and only find it posted on different christian forums... Did you post them also? So I looked up the man by name and wikipedia has info about him, but not this name assembly. You should start a free website blog on blogspot.com post his stuff.

Me I follow Messiah Yeshua(Jesus) I have blogs about that. So what do you want us to do with this info? Salvation isn't mentioned.

Hi, and appreciate your concern! There are many who mistakenly see the Jews in the OT as part of the Church of Christ. This and a few other articles I've posted attempt to show that God is going to do something with His people Israel that He is not going to do with the Christians.

Though I realize that these truths will not become common acceptance, I also believe this type of teaching is important enough to share with those who may find an interest in them. The title has no intention of being any assembly, but a type of assembly: an "unpaired" or different assembly.

I like everything you shared, and God bless!

 

[Cassandra]

I've posted attempt to show that God is going to do something with His people Israel that He is not going to do with the Christians.

The New Testament makes it clear that there is no division between Jew and Gentile.
Gal 3:28,29 28
"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."
Romans 2:28,29
'A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God."

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Hi, and appreciate your concern! There are many who mistakenly see the Jews in the OT as part of the Church of Christ. This and a few other articles I've posted attempt to show that God is going to do something with His people Israel that He is not going to do with the Christians.

Though I realize that these truths will not become common acceptance, I also believe this type of teaching is important enough to share with those who may find an interest in them. The title has no intention of being any assembly, but a type of assembly: an "unpaired" or different assembly.

I like everything you shared, and God bless!

OKAY, You understand that The Body of Christ is not called the Israel of God - which is Replacement Theology. You also understand that according to Covenant theology, God is not done with Israel! A remnant population (1/3) will be saved when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. That is about to happen during the time referred as the Great Tribulation. ( Romans 11 verifies this). Even Revelation 7 confirms that Godbhas sustained throughout the generations (unbeknownst to us), the twelve tribes and will select 144k male virgins from them. We must pause forba second and think if there are tha many male virgins (men between 15-25), how many more of their tribal populations could there be?
For example, in the US, there are 12 million males between the ages 15-25. That is barely 3% of the population. That is interesting. If God were to save 1/3 (a remnant) of the Jewish population, which would be about 4.9 million, 3% of that figure is close to 144k. This is conjecture and probabilities assumed on my part only ... my imagination running off.
Back to the Bible, Romans 11 also says that branches were cut off the VINE so that the Gentiles could be grafted in. What does that mean?
Jesus is the Vine, He, WHO IS GOD, has always been the Vine. OT saints wh9 lived by faith, faith that a Savior/ Messiah would come, were in that VINE and so also were already in Paradise. We see this in Luke 16, where Abraham is there in Paradise comforting Lazarus. Jesus was telling this true story ( not a Parable) of the past, yet He had not died and rose yet. Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus and the disciples - where did they come from? They came from Paradise, another word for heaven.
This is hard to get our mind around. There is this time barrier that seems to conflict with the spiritual reality. The spiritual realm is not confined to time, a physical dimension, as we know it. So we say Christ's righteousness, His sacrifice is imputed to OT saints. When? Well, that is the tricky part to grasp. When Moses died, it was imputed to him as if it had already happened. Elijah was taken up to heaven. Newborn Christians are in a sense, transported back in time to die on the cross with Christ are we not? Furthermore, He died for the sins of mankind for all time. How is that possible? I wasn't born yet and he died for sins I had not yet committed.
So this physical event that happenned in time transcended time itself into the spiritual realm.
Jesus will return for His Bride, but Israel will soon after be grafted back into the Vine. Every eye will see Him descending in the clouds ( as He ascended) and the Jews will see Him and mourn, realize that He was and is their Messiah/ Savior they have been waiting for all along. But they will be tested, through the war (which btw has already begun and will escallate) of the many nations that come against them in these times.

 

[Wick Stick]

—Lewis Sperry Chafer (1871-1952)

From Wikipedia:

Lewis Sperry Chafer (February 27, 1871 – August 22, 1952) was an American theologian. He co-founded Dallas Theological Seminary with his older brother Rollin Thomas Chafer (1868-1940), served as its first president, and was an influential proponent of Christian Dispensationalism in the early 20th century.

From me:

I think I'm out on this one. Dispensationalism as a theological system is fraught with problems, and the Dallas Theological Seminary doesn't exactly have a good reputation.

-Jarrod

 

[Cyd]

Hi, and appreciate your concern! There are many who mistakenly see the Jews in the OT as part of the Church of Christ. This and a few other articles I've posted attempt to show that God is going to do something with His people Israel that He is not going to do with the Christians.

Though I realize that these truths will not become common acceptance, I also believe this type of teaching is important enough to share with those who may find an interest in them. The title has no intention of being any assembly, but a type of assembly: an "unpaired" or different assembly.

I like everything you shared, and God bless!

Thank you and just what is He going to do? The scripture reading this that pops my mind is that Father has not changed He is the same.. He wanted a holy people. Father chose the Levites who minister to Father over the first borns... fitting made us priests (Levites) and kings he said. Strangers and sojourners could choose what tribe they wanted to live within in the OT. Me I chose Levi as Father was their inheritance so I was choosing Father over any land here on this planet.

Anyway I did put my site blogspot you should check them out and maybe do something. I am still working on getting all tied together. There are a lot of settings that you need to turn on for blogspot to be found though. If you title your blog with this man's name any person searching for his name your blog should pop up., it would come up in web searches though. Let me know if you do one I would help you it takes a lot to figure all their settings out.
God Bless you too!

 

[Cassandra]

Thank you and just what is He going to do? The scripture reading this that pops my mind is that Father has not changed He is the same.. He wanted a holy people. Father chose the Levites who minister to Father over the first borns... fitting made us priests (Levites) and kings he said. Strangers and sojourners could choose what tribe they wanted to live within in the OT. Me I chose Levi as Father was their inheritance so I was choosing Father over any land here on this planet.

Anyway I did put my site blogspot you should check them out and maybe do something. I am still working on getting all tied together. There are a lot of settings that you need to turn on for blogspot to be found though. If you title your blog with this man's name any person searching for his name your blog should pop up., it would come up in web searches though. Let me know if you do one I would help you it takes a lot to figure all their settings out.
God Bless you too!

Hebrews 7:11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also. 13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. 14 For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. 15 And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16 one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is declared:

“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”

 

[Randy Kluth]

Certain schools of theology, mainly Covenant (a), contend that the Church in her present form is but a continuation of God’s one purpose from the beginning of the human family (b). They speak of an “Old Testament Church” and seek to relate this to the one Body that constitutes the New Testament revelation (c). The fact that Jews (O.T. Jews—NC) are invited into fellowship in one Body with Gentiles is no warrant for the belief that O.T. saints are included in this new divine purpose.

Though I'm not a Dispensationalist, there are arguments made that I'd still like to understand better. The history of Christian Eschatology is an interesting study, and the changing focus of biblical prophecy over the years causes some misunderstandings.

One area I agree strongly with Dispensationalism is on the reality of Israel's future restoration in the Millennium. Getting this idea right has been important for me to understand what God has been doing not just with Israel but with all nations through the centuries.

A major issue involves determining who God sees as people involved in His covenants. Did God include *every Jew* in His covenant of Law? Does God include *every Christian* in His covenant of Grace? These are important questions to answer, I feel.

The assertions that the N.T. mystery in Christ is composed of all saints in all ages (even O.T. saints—NC) seems to lack a consideration of the issues involved. If the Church is a continuous purpose of God throughout the dispensations, why the rent veil (which allowed direct access without the high priest—NC)? Why Pentecost (to take a believer from carnal to spiritual by the Holy Spirit using a new nature—NC)? Why the distinctive messages of the Epistles which are properly identified as Church truth (containing doctrines not accessible to non-Christians—NC)?

The differences between the 2 covenants are clear. The cross of Christ was clearly a turning point in history with respect to God's covenants.

Only I would not cancel the promises God made while still under the OT period. God promised there would be the nation Israel throughout the present temporal era. And I think that includes the Millennial period.

The fact Israel failed under the Law is little different from Christianity in Europe failing in our own era. Both are national or international failures. The only major difference is that we have the cross of Christ today to give us eternal assurance. In the OT era they only had the *hope* of eternal assurance.

 

[Netchaplain]

The New Testament makes it clear that there is no division between Jew and Gentile.
Gal 3:28,29 28

This passage differentiates that there is no respect of persons between ethnicities, not between literal progenies. The Jew who is a Christian is literally a believing Jew. It's as you said, "no division (preference or prejudice) between Christian Jews and Gentiles; otherwise there would be no differentiation, or literal distinction between "male and female" (v 28).

 

[Netchaplain]

Back to the Bible, Romans 11 also says that branches were cut off the VINE so that the Gentiles could be grafted in.

The "branches cut off" or "broken off" is the same as "the casting away of them," which in my opinion is only in reference to fellowship with God, but not union with Him; because as you've indicated, God will restore them to fellowship during the Millennium.

Good reply and appreciate it!

 

[Cassandra]

This passage differentiates that there is no respect of persons between ethnicities, not between literal progenies. The Jew who is a Christian is literally a believing Jew. It's as you said, "no division (preference or prejudice) between Christian Jews and Gentiles; otherwise there would be no differentiation, or literal distinction between "male and female" (v 28).

and the Christian is also a believing Jew--put any label you want on it. We are all children of Abraham/

 

[Randy Kluth]

and the Christian is also a believing Jew--put any label you want on it. We are all children of Abraham/

I may or may not have Jewish in me, but I'm definitely not a practicing Jew, though I am indeed a Christian. It's a common view to think of the Church as "Spiritual Israel." There are a couple of verses that appear to suggest that. But I don't personally agree with it. But whatever we believe on this, it won't take us out of the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[Cyd]

Hebrews 7:11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also. 13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. 14 For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. 15 And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16 one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is declared:

“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”

Hi Cassandra I didn't understand the post re to topic, I did go read about Melchizedek in the OT but ask the Lord what to even respond. I was given this this morning so will post it here thinking it was the response.
Isaiah 49:5-7
5 And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
Matthew 17:11
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

 

[Netchaplain]

The history of Christian Eschatology is an interesting study,

Hi Brother! It's the eschatology of Israel that is difficult. One point of interest is that the saints left that are "sealed" in their foreheads are of course the Jews who will be saved during the Millennium.

A major issue involves determining who God sees as people involved in His covenants. Did God include *every Jew* in His covenant of Law? Does God include *every Christian* in His covenant of Grace?

The Covenant of the Mosaic Law, which is paused, involves all non-Christian Jews who believed in God (Jn 14:1 "Ye that believe in God"). Israel's New Covenant will involve new "law" (Jer 31:33), "statutes" and "judgements" (Eze 36:27).

Every Christian is saved (Jhn 6:37), unless shown to be apostate by discontinuing a Christian life, which means has yet to be reborn (1Jo 2:19).

The fact Israel failed under the Law is little different from Christianity in Europe failing in our own era.

Good point, but I don't think I see Israel as a fail. God saw their faith and disobedience, but this is part of God's plan to eventually restore them to fellowship, when He "gives" them a new nature ('spirit' - Eze 36:26).

Believers still sin, which is part of God's plan because He knew we would still sin; but the big difference now is that it is no longer our desire to sin, and this is where He wants us to be for now. The "dominion" (Ro 6:14) of the "old man" (sin nature) is that it can cause you to desire sin, and thankfully we are free from this dominion, because it's never our desire to intentionally and "willfully" sin.

 

[Cassandra]

Hi Cassandra I didn't understand the post re to topic,

I hear ya. I still don't understand the topic.
If it is about the Jews getting special treatment because they are Jews, there is no salvation in geneaology. The Covennant given to Israel was conditional, as covenants are. It was broken. God gave a new covenant, the Levitical priesthood is gone, which is what Hebrews talks about.Jesus is not a Levitical high priest, but a priest after the order of Melchizedek.
The term Jew has been redefined in Romans 2:28, and 29, and as a matter of fact, in Gal 3:28,29 we go all the way back to Abraham as who we are heirs to. Abraham recognized Melchisedek.
Have you read the parable of the landowner? Matt 21:33-43?
“Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit. “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said. “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir.Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”

“He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.” Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

“‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?
“Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.

 

[Netchaplain]

and the Christian is also a believing Jew--put any label you want on it. We are all children of Abraham/

I would say Gentile Christians are spiritual children of Abraham, and Christian Jews are literal children of Abraham. All still retain their literal progeny because I believe the passage is being metaphorical concerning the Gentiles; and I also don't see this issue as something that can affect one's faith.

Thanks for your reply!

 

[Netchaplain]

Hi Cassandra I didn't understand the post re to topic,

The topical subject concerns the mistaken concept that the non-Christian OT saints will be a part of the Church and Body of Christ. It is taught among many spiritual growth authors (Plymouth Brethren - circa 1700-1800's) that God's people Israel (those who believe in God but not Christ - Jhn 14:1 "ye believe in God, believe also in Me") will inherit the new earth; and Christians inherit the new heaven.

 

[Wick Stick]

I hear ya. I still don't understand the topic.

I think the theologian quoted in the opening post was confused himself. Do you mind if I pick apart your post a little? My purpose isn't to be adversarial. I think we mostly agree, but some of your points need a little refinement IMO.

If it is about the Jews getting special treatment because they are Jews, there is no salvation in genealogy.

Salvation is for the children of Abraham. That does count for something. But God has not reckoned the children of Abraham according to genealogies, so you're right. He has given Abraham children through adoption, and there is salvation in adoption.

The Covenant given to Israel was conditional, as covenants are. It was broken. God gave a new covenant, the Levitical priesthood is gone, which is what Hebrews talks about. Jesus is not a Levitical high priest, but a priest after the order of Melchizedek.

God didn't give a new covenant to the same old group of people, though. The penalty for breaking the covenant was death. And the ones who broke the covenant were destroyed. Israel (the northern 10-11 tribes) ceased to exist as a nation in the 8th century BC. They were dead - "dry bones" Ezekiel calls them.

God had to resurrect Israel, because they didn't even exist. During Jesus ministry, He traveled through the territory of historic Israel, and made converts. Those who believed were adopted to Abraham, and Israel suddenly existed again, some 700 years after their destruction.

As for Judah (the southern 2-3 tribes), they weren't destroyed, but they were scattered and re-gathered. Perhaps they received a lesser punishment because they didn't outright reject the covenant like the northern kingdom?

Anyway, at the point at which Israel was made to exist again, Judah and Israel were re-joined, like the two sticks in Ezekiel 37.

The term Jew has been redefined in Romans 2:28, and 29, and as a matter of fact, in Gal 3:28,29 we go all the way back to Abraham as who we are heirs to. Abraham recognized Melchisedek.
Have you read the parable of the landowner? Matt 21:33-43?
“Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit. “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said. “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”

“He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.” Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

“‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?
“Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.

Yes, exactly. The government of the Jews of Jesus day was taken away not long after they crucified Him. But those Jews who accepted Jesus were also adopted - they were re-joined and became part of a unified Israel.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hi Brother! It's the eschatology of Israel that is difficult. One point of interest is that the saints left that are "sealed" in their foreheads are of course the Jews who will be saved during the Millennium.

I can't honestly say I fully understand Rev 7 and the "144,000." However, I agree that they seem to represent the ultimate Christianization of Israel in the Millennium, which begins in the " Tribulation Period" with a remnant of Jews.

The Covenant of the Mosaic Law, which is paused, involves all non-Christian Jews who believed in God (Jn 14:1 "Ye that believe in God"). Israel's New Covenant will involve new "law" (Jer 31:33), "statutes" and "judgements" (Eze 36:27).

I don't believe, personally, that the Mosaic Law is "paused." Rather, I think the Law was irrevocably broken. While it's true that the Law could and was re-instituted in ancient times, after being utterly broken (Zerubbabel), I don't believe that after Christ the Law would ever be reinstated.

If ceremonies of the Law are ever reinstituted in some way, it will have to be under the New Covenant, which is legally based on the righteousness of Christ, and not on the righteousness of the Law. Any religious ceremonies, based on the Law, would have to become mere superficial displays as memorials or holidays, rather than binding laws from God.

Every Christian is saved (Jhn 6:37), unless shown to be apostate by discontinuing a Christian life, which means has yet to be reborn (1Jo 2:19).

I personally believe that all who claim to be "Christian" in a proper way, by embracing all of the cardinal doctrines of the faith, have entered into a covenant relationship with God, aka a contract. And yes, by becoming an "apostate" that status would be changed. Such a person would be "cut off" from the contract, having turned against it or defiled it in an unredeemable way.

Good point, but I don't think I see Israel as a fail. God saw their faith and disobedience, but this is part of God's plan to eventually restore them to fellowship, when He "gives" them a new nature ('spirit' - Eze 36:26).

What I meant is that the Law brought Israel to the position of being unable to redeem themselves by the Law. The national contract with God failed to establish Israel forever. However, it was, I think, God's plan to save Israel by mercy, apart from the Law, which would have to begin with a faithful remnant before becoming a full national restoration.

Believers still sin, which is part of God's plan because He knew we would still sin; but the big difference now is that it is no longer our desire to sin, and this is where He wants us to be for now. The "dominion" (Ro 6:14) of the "old man" (sin nature) is that it can cause you to desire sin, and thankfully we are free from this dominion, because it's never our desire to intentionally and "willfully" sin.

Quite frankly, I don't think there is this "change" in the "will" from OT to NT. True, it is described as such, but without declaring it to be unique in history to this one covenant. It is descriptive, I think, of all true revivals, OT or NT, in which people stop being superficially religious and begin to focus on truly wanting to serve God.

Thanks for the discussion.