The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Of course not. What I am saying is that Hebrews 9 nowhere effectively say that “the Father promises to accept the offering provided that Jesus' followers have the proper inwardness -- contrition, penitence, honesty, faith, hope, love and etc.”

Hebrews 9:14 states that the blood of Christ, offered to God without blemish, cleanses the conscience from dead works to serve the living God. I simply answer the question, what does a cleansed conscience look like? In verse 15, Paul argues that the death of Christ on the cross, redeemed those who were slaves of sin so that those who have been called might receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. What are the most salient features of those whom God called, if not repentance, contrition, confession, and honesty?

That still does not make Hebrews 9 “effectively say that “the Father promises to accept the offering provided that Jesus' followers have the proper inwardness -- contrition, penitence, honesty, faith, hope, love and etc.”

In fact you have actually shown that Hebrews 9:14-15 does not say that and actually say a different thought - that the blood of Christ, offered to God without blemish, cleanses the conscience from dead works. It does not say anything about the Father’s acceptance of Christ’s offering as conditioned to the conscience of people as need be of proper inwardness.

Romans 4 nor the part of Psalms 32 impress anything about salvation being an offer or is offered.

I'm not suggesting that salvation itself is an offer. I am arguing from the Biblical premise that the cross was/is a means of reconciliation and a propitiatory offering. The cross is being compared to those two things and we are invited to find a correspondence or a partial similarity between them. How is the cross like a propitiatory offering? How is the cross like the terms that make for peace? And why does the New Testament say that God, through the cross, was making peace with the entire world?

Good that you don’t see salvation as being offered or is an offer.

<<<the cross was/is a means of reconciliation and a propitiatory offering.>>>

Whose means? The answer to that somehow guides us to the answers to the three other questions you asked. So, let me know your answer to that before I answer the other questions at the end part of your paragraph.

<<<The cross is being compared to those two things and we are invited to find a correspondence or a partial similarity between them.>>>

We are invited? I don’t seem to see any such invitation, or an offer for that matter.

What is the cross if not Jesus' offering the Father something that will please the Father and make salvation possible? God is not going to listen to our appeals for peace, but he will listen to his son. But salvation isn't possible for those who are unwilling to make peace with God. Therefore, the tell-tail markers of our wish to make peace are contrition, confession, repentance, and especially an honest and good heart.

<<<What is the cross if not Jesus' offering the Father something that will please the Father and make salvation possible?>>>

Not made salvation possible, for there is really nothing impossible with God. But that God’s salvation is accomplished and since then is unfolding, and is being revealed in time.

<<<God is not going to listen to our appeals for peace, but he will listen to his son.>>>

He did in time past before Christ. In fact He gave the law pertaining to that such as are the peace offerings, to the children of Israel.

And, I am also taking into account what Jesus himself had to say about the cross, especially with reference to Numbers 21:8 where we read that Moses lifted a fiery serpent onto a standard. What are the points of correspondence between the standard and the cross Jesus wishes us to understand, if not the fact that in each case, the person wishing to be healed, or forgiven, must come before the standard or cross to look at it. In other words, the terms of peace not only require Jesus' death on a cross, but also require the penitent to bow to the significance of the cross. And what does it look like to face the implication of the cross if not contrition, repentance, etc?

John 3:14 takes reference to the fiery serpent in the wilderness to point to the crucifixion, and to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus, that those who believes in Him will be saved. I’d say that that has nothing to do or does not in any way support the idea that “the Father promises to accept the offering provided that Jesus' followers have the proper inwardness -- contrition, penitence, honesty, faith, hope, love and etc.”

Romans 4:25 who was delivered up because of [dia] our offenses, and was raised because of [dia] our justification.

dia: through, on account of, because of

It was on account of our justification. May I ask, what can you say about that? How is Jesus’ resurrection from the dead said to be on account of our justification?

I agree with the NET Bible commentators who suggest that the second "dia" is prospective rather than retrospective. That is, his resurrection justifies our trust in his finished work.

I don’t. I take that to be on account of our (who are saved, past, present, and future) justification. And that such is already an accomplished work or finished work when Jesus resurrected from the dead.

But what is your answer to the question:

How is Jesus’ resurrection from the dead said to be on account of our justification?

Tong
R4370

 

[Tong2020]

Anyway, moving on, let me comment on some points in the rest of your post.

<<<no, in that the cross does not save us from the inevitable consequence of sin, i.e. death.>>>

The cross sure does not save us from death, if the death you refer to is that state of the body without the spirit, or the world’s definition of it. But that is not what death is, at least as I understand it that is spoken in scriptures in relation to sin.

I understand. You and I are attempting to communicate complex ideas in a short a post as possible. In my video, "Understanding the Gospel: understanding the bad news." I explain, "There are three fundamental aspects of the bad news: 1. This life offers so much but delivers so little; 2. Death robs life of meaning and significance; and 3. All human beings must face the righteous judgment of God who will render to each person according to his deeds." In a certain context, the term "death" has been employed to speak about each of those three ideas.

In general terms, I take death spoken in scriptures as a state and existence, separate from God and from anything that has to do with the things of the Spirit of God, the exact opposite of life, life which is a state and existence with God and with all things that has to do with the things of the Spirit of God.

Tong
R4371

 

[CadyandZoe]

Thank you for your thoughts there.

The next question would then be, what does it profit them, that is, Jesus’ dying for these dead men?

Tong
R4369

Paul argues that both Jews and Gentiles are saved on the same basis as Abraham, the father of our faith. Abraham believed God and he accounted it to him as righteousness (or justifiedness.) In other words, the blessing of Abraham, eternal life, was always on the basis of faith. Nonetheless, it was God's pleasure to place his son at the head of all people and especially believers. To this end, he gave his son the authority to chose whom to save and whom not to save. John 17:2 The resurrection of Jesus Christ benefits these men and women of faith that existed down through history because Jesus is indestructible and will call them out of the grave at the appropriate time.

 

[CadyandZoe]

That still does not make Hebrews 9 “effectively say that “the Father promises to accept the offering provided that Jesus' followers have the proper inwardness -- contrition, penitence, honesty, faith, hope, love and etc.”

In fact you have actually shown that Hebrews 9:14-15 does not say that and actually say a different thought - that the blood of Christ, offered to God without blemish, cleanses the conscience from dead works. It does not say anything about the Father’s acceptance of Christ’s offering as conditioned to the conscience of people as need be of proper inwardness.

Do you understand what it means that Christ is our high priest? Let's review with this excerpt from Encyclopedia Britannica.

High priest, Hebrew kohen gadol, in Judaism, the chief religious functionary in the Temple of Jerusalem, whose unique privilege was to enter the Holy of Holies (inner sanctum) once a year on Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, to burn incense and sprinkle sacrificial animal blood to expiate his own sins and those of the people of Israel. ​

In the book of Hebrews, Paul makes an analogy between the High Priest of Israel, and Jesus as our High Priest. He enters the temple once a year to make intercession for himself and his people. This is important so let me repeat it again. The High priest is making intercession for himself and his people, taken as a whole. During the rest of the year, the priests make intercession for individual people who bring offerings to the temple. But once a year he makes intercession for ALL the people at the same time. By analogy, the New Testament teaches us that Jesus was the propitiation for the entire world. John 3:16, 1 John 2:2

But even if God accepts an offering from the High priest, God reserves the right to reject the offering for individual people who don't love and fear the Lord. This was God's word to Moses. Romans 9:15, Exodus 33:19 Likewise, the propitiatory offering of the cross, which is made by Jesus our high priest expiates the sins of the entire world. But God still reserves the right to have mercy on whomever he wishes. This is why I say that the offering of Jesus blood is not efficacious for those who will not repent or approach God in contrition.

Whose means?

The Father, remember? 2 Corinthians 5:19. Remember Abraham? "The Lord will provide." Genesis 22:14

We are invited? I don’t seem to see any such invitation, or an offer for that matter.

Yes, in certain contexts various ideas remain unspoken or the author wishes (invites) the reader to think through the issue and draw the correct conclusion on his own.

Not made salvation possible, for there is really nothing impossible with God. But that God’s salvation is accomplished and since then is unfolding, and is being revealed in time.

Of course but we are working with the analogies the Bible has given to us, e.g. reconciliation, propitiation, etc. I hoped you understood that my arguments are to be taken in THAT context. Much of the work of understanding the Bible is knowing when the Bible is speaking from God's point of view, as you just did, or when the Bible is speaking phenomenologically, that is, from the standpoint of human experience. The Bible is using examples taken from human experience to explain the theological principles behind the cross as if a child were asking, "why did Jesus need to die?"

What is phenomenological language? Consider how we speak about the movement of the sun. We say that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. Even as we indicate the movement of the sun in the sky, we are describing the phenomenon as we perceive it from a particular point of view on the earth. But in fact, after much debate and scientific investigation, we now know that the true nature of the sun and the earth is that the earth rotates on its axis once a day, and revolves around the sun once a year.

In the same way, we describe the phenomenon of salvation from our own point of view. I was lost but now I am found. I heard the preacher make the call to come forward and I made the choice to come forward. That is how we experience it. But we know, especially from the Bible, the real cause of our salvation is divine action on our behalf, working in our spirit to transform our hearts and minds.

More to come . . . I need to go.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Thank you for your thoughts there.

The next question would then be, what does it profit them, that is, Jesus’ dying for these dead men?

Paul argues that both Jews and Gentiles are saved on the same basis as Abraham, the father of our faith. Abraham believed God and he accounted it to him as righteousness (or justifiedness.) In other words, the blessing of Abraham, eternal life, was always on the basis of faith. Nonetheless, it was God's pleasure to place his son at the head of all people and especially believers. To this end, he gave his son the authority to chose whom to save and whom not to save. John 17:2 The resurrection of Jesus Christ benefits these men and women of faith that existed down through history because Jesus is indestructible and will call them out of the grave at the appropriate time.

Yes, all throughout time, it is through faith that God saves man.

However, my question is “what does it profit them, that is, Jesus’ dying for these dead men?”, and not about faith.

Tong
R4380

 

[brightfame52]

For its impossible for Christ's Death, that which propitiated the Wrath of God, for the sins of those Christ did die for, 1 Jn 2:2, its not possible that it was for all mankind without exception, simply because the scripture verifies that many are under God's Wrath Jn 3:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Now this would be impossible for anyone whom Christ's Death propitiated Gods wrath for !

And again Eph 5:5-6

5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.849

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Because of what things does the wrath of God come upon the children of disobedience ? Their sins, whoremongering, covetousness, idolatry and so forth.

But thats impossible for any that Christ's Death has already propitiated God for their sins !

Those Christ died for also was delivered from the wrath to come 1 Thess 1:10

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Remember when Jesus was raised from the dead, it was for the Justification of those whose sins He was delivered for Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Again Col 3:5-6

5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

If Christ had died for them, God would have no wrath coming to them, and He would have been merciful upon their disobedience/unbelief , as He does for His Elect Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that[IN ORDER THAT] he might have mercy upon all.

That word disobedience in Eph 5:6 is the same word here in Rom 11:32 for unbelief,

For He has mercy upon all for whom Christ's Death hath propitiated Him in behalf of.

God has no wrath for those He has purposed to Have Mercy Upon for their disobedience !

Heb 8:12

For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
That still does not make Hebrews 9“effectively say that “the Father promises to accept the offering provided that Jesus' followers have the proper inwardness -- contrition, penitence, honesty, faith, hope, love and etc.”

In fact you have actually shown that Hebrews 9:14-15 does not say that and actually say a different thought - that the blood of Christ, offered to God without blemish, cleanses the conscience from dead works. It does not say anything about the Father’s acceptance of Christ’s offering as conditioned to the conscience of people as need be of proper inwardness.

Do you understand what it means that Christ is our high priest? Let's review with this excerpt from Encyclopedia Britannica.

High priest, Hebrew kohen gadol, in Judaism, the chief religious functionary in the Temple of Jerusalem, whose unique privilege was to enter the Holy of Holies (inner sanctum) once a year on Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, to burn incense and sprinkle sacrificial animal blood to expiate his own sins and those of the people of Israel. ​

In the book of Hebrews, Paul makes an analogy between the High Priest of Israel, and Jesus as our High Priest. He enters the temple once a year to make intercession for himself and his people. This is important so let me repeat it again. The High priest is making intercession for himself and his people, taken as a whole. During the rest of the year, the priests make intercession for individual people who bring offerings to the temple. But once a year he makes intercession for ALL the people at the same time. By analogy, the New Testament teaches us that Jesus was the propitiation for the entire world. John 3:16, 1 John 2:2

But even if God accepts an offering from the High priest, God reserves the right to reject the offering for individual people who don't love and fear the Lord. This was God's word to Moses. Romans 9:15, Exodus 33:19 Likewise, the propitiatory offering of the cross, which is made by Jesus our high priest expiates the sins of the entire world. But God still reserves the right to have mercy on whomever he wishes. This is why I say that the offering of Jesus blood is not efficacious for those who will not repent or approach God in contrition.

<<<But God still reserves the right to have mercy on whomever he wishes. This is why I say that the offering of Jesus blood is not efficacious for those who will not repent or approach God in contrition.>>>

Of course God does. Nonetheless, we speak of Christ’s offering and not of the old testament offering by the high priest. Now, Christ’s offering is ever effective, and its effectiveness does not, in any way, shape, or form, depended on the people. That God accepted His offering speaks of its effectiveness. And so, accepted by God as it is, Christ effectively had made propitiation for the sins of the whole world. And that was an already done and finished matter.

Now, at this point, I would like mention that propitiation is not salvation unto eternal life. Also, that while Christ died for all men in that sense, Christ did not die for all men for salvation unto eternal life, but only for the people whom the Father had given to the Son to raise up in the last day, those whom God had foreknew, predestined, called, justified, glorified.

Whose means?

The Father, remember? 2 Corinthians 5:19. Remember Abraham? "The Lord will provide." Genesis 22:14

That’s right. The means is God’s, not man’s.

We are invited? I don’t seem to see any such invitation, or an offer for that matter.

Yes, in certain contexts various ideas remain unspoken or the author wishes (invites) the reader to think through the issue and draw the correct conclusion on his own.

Well, as I said, I don’t seem to see any such invitation, or an offer for that matter.

Not made salvation possible, for there is really nothing impossible with God. But that God’s salvation is accomplished and since then is unfolding, and is being revealed in time.

Of course but we are working with the analogies the Bible has given to us, e.g. reconciliation, propitiation, etc. I hoped you understood that my arguments are to be taken in THAT context. Much of the work of understanding the Bible is knowing when the Bible is speaking from God's point of view, as you just did, or when the Bible is speaking phenomenologically, that is, from the standpoint of human experience. The Bible is using examples taken from human experience to explain the theological principles behind the cross as if a child were asking, "why did Jesus need to die?"

What is phenomenological language? Consider how we speak about the movement of the sun. We say that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. Even as we indicate the movement of the sun in the sky, we are describing the phenomenon as we perceive it from a particular point of view on the earth. But in fact, after much debate and scientific investigation, we now know that the true nature of the sun and the earth is that the earth rotates on its axis once a day, and revolves around the sun once a year.

In the same way, we describe the phenomenon of salvation from our own point of view. I was lost but now I am found. I heard the preacher make the call to come forward and I made the choice to come forward. That is how we experience it. But we know, especially from the Bible, the real cause of our salvation is divine action on our behalf, working in our spirit to transform our hearts and minds.

More to come . . . I need to go.

<<<In the same way, we describe the phenomenon of salvation from our own point of view.>>>

“phenomenon of salvation”? That’s new to my hearing.

Going back, my point in that part of my post to which you are here responding to is that, God’s salvation is already been accomplished by Jesus Christ, about a couple of thousand years ago. And since then what He had accomplished is unfolding, and is being revealed in time.

Notice, Jesus’ commandment to the chosen apostles was to preach the gospel and also make disciples of all the nations. Now what is the gospel that the apostles preached? Is it not Jesus Christ ~ His person, life, death, and resurrection? The gospel is not about how to be saved, but about the salvation of God, that is come, Jesus Christ. As is any news that comes to people, we see some who believes and some who don’t. Those who believe, they are those whom Christ saved at the cross, by His death and resurrection. They will all be revealed in time, all from the time of Adam until the last day.

Tong
R4391

 

[Kermos]

<<<But God still reserves the right to have mercy on whomever he wishes. This is why I say that the offering of Jesus blood is not efficacious for those who will not repent or approach God in contrition.>>>

Of course God does. Nonetheless, we speak of Christ’s offering and not of the old testament offering by the high priest. Now, Christ’s offering is ever effective, and its effectiveness does not, in any way, shape, or form, depended on the people. That God accepted His offering speaks of its effectiveness. And so, accepted by God as it is, Christ effectively had made propitiation for the sins of the whole world. And that was an already done and finished matter.

Now, at this point, I would like mention that propitiation is not salvation unto eternal life. Also, that while Christ died for all men in that sense, Christ did not die for all men for salvation unto eternal life, but only for the people whom the Father had given to the Son to raise up in the last day, those whom God had foreknew, predestined, called, justified, glorified.

That’s right. The means is God’s, not man’s.



Well, as I said, I don’t seem to see any such invitation, or an offer for that matter.



<<<In the same way, we describe the phenomenon of salvation from our own point of view.>>>

“phenomenon of salvation”? That’s new to my hearing.

Going back, my point in that part of my post to which you are here responding to is that, God’s salvation is already been accomplished by Jesus Christ, about a couple of thousand years ago. And since then what He had accomplished is unfolding, and is being revealed in time.

Notice, Jesus’ commandment to the chosen apostles was to preach the gospel and also make disciples of all the nations. Now what is the gospel that the apostles preached? Is it not Jesus Christ ~ His person, life, death, and resurrection? The gospel is not about how to be saved, but about the salvation of God, that is come, Jesus Christ. As is any news that comes to people, we see some who believes and some who don’t. Those who believe, they are those whom Christ saved at the cross, by His death and resurrection. They will all be revealed in time, all from the time of Adam until the last day.

Tong
R4391

You wrote "accepted by God as it is, Christ effectively had made propitiation for the sins of the whole world" with respect to1 John 2:2.

The phrase "the whole world" occurs in one other place in the First Book of John, and the next paragraph shows the location.

@Tong2020, do you believe that you, right now, are a part of "the whole world" as it is written in "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19)?

 

[Kermos]

For its impossible for Christ's Death, that which propitiated the Wrath of God, for the sins of those Christ did die for, 1 Jn 2:2, its not possible that it was for all mankind without exception, simply because the scripture verifies that many are under God's Wrath Jn 3:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Now this would be impossible for anyone whom Christ's Death propitiated Gods wrath for !

And again Eph 5:5-6

5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.849

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Because of what things does the wrath of God come upon the children of disobedience ? Their sins, whoremongering, covetousness, idolatry and so forth.

But thats impossible for any that Christ's Death has already propitiated God for their sins !

Those Christ died for also was delivered from the wrath to come 1 Thess 1:10

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Remember when Jesus was raised from the dead, it was for the Justification of those whose sins He was delivered for Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Again Col 3:5-6

5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

If Christ had died for them, God would have no wrath coming to them, and He would have been merciful upon their disobedience/unbelief , as He does for His Elect Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that[IN ORDER THAT] he might have mercy upon all.

That word disobedience in Eph 5:6 is the same word here in Rom 11:32 for unbelief,

For He has mercy upon all for whom Christ's Death hath propitiated Him in behalf of.

God has no wrath for those He has purposed to Have Mercy Upon for their disobedience !

Heb 8:12

For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

<<>>

Of course God does. Nonetheless, we speak of Christ’s offering and not of the old testament offering by the high priest. Now, Christ’s offering is ever effective, and its effectiveness does not, in any way, shape, or form, depended on the people. That God accepted His offering speaks of its effectiveness. And so, accepted by God as it is, Christ effectively had made propitiation for the sins of the whole world. And that was an already done and finished matter.

Now, at this point, I would like mention that propitiation is not salvation unto eternal life. Also, that while Christ died for all men in that sense, Christ did not die for all men for salvation unto eternal life, but only for the people whom the Father had given to the Son to raise up in the last day, those whom God had foreknew, predestined, called, justified, glorified.

That’s right. The means is God’s, not man’s.



Well, as I said, I don’t seem to see any such invitation, or an offer for that matter.



<<<In the same way, we describe the phenomenon of salvation from our own point of view.>>>

“phenomenon of salvation”? That’s new to my hearing.

Going back, my point in that part of my post to which you are here responding to is that, God’s salvation is already been accomplished by Jesus Christ, about a couple of thousand years ago. And since then what He had accomplished is unfolding, and is being revealed in time.

Notice, Jesus’ commandment to the chosen apostles was to preach the gospel and also make disciples of all the nations. Now what is the gospel that the apostles preached? Is it not Jesus Christ ~ His person, life, death, and resurrection? The gospel is not about how to be saved, but about the salvation of God, that is come, Jesus Christ. As is any news that comes to people, we see some who believes and some who don’t. Those who believe, they are those whom Christ saved at the cross, by His death and resurrection. They will all be revealed in time, all from the time of Adam until the last day.

Tong
R4391

Hello @brightfame52,

You scripturally demonstrated that @Tong2020 is in error before Tong2020 posted!

Your first paragraph of "For its impossible for Christ's Death, that which propitiated the Wrath of God, for the sins of those Christ did die for, 1 Jn 2:2, its not possible that it was for all mankind without exception, simply because the scripture verifies that many are under God's Wrath Jn 3:36" is more than sufficient to prove Tong2020's "accepted by God as it is, Christ effectively had made propitiation for the sins of the whole world" is the precepts of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9) because according to Tong2020's free-willian philosophy Christ died for everyone everywhere on earth yet some people for whom Christ died have been snatched out of His Hand to go to hell.

Lord Jesus says "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:27-28).

Tong2020's free-willian philosophy is the opposite of the Word of God.

Tong2020's free-willian philosophy results in free-willians "choosing" a Jesus that is truly not Jesus.

The Word of God says there is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God (John 20:28), did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

 

[CadyandZoe]

How is Jesus’ resurrection from the dead said to be on account of our justification?

Tong
R4370

You keep asking me "how" questions. And I wonder what you have in mind. Let me explain. Some Christians take a "utilitarian" view of the cross, believing that the cross was efficacious with regard to one of the following: debt that needs to be paid; a score that needs to be settled; an offence against honor that stands unchallenged; a guilt that needs to be punished; a loss that needs to be made whole, or some other kind of cosmic debt to justice. Given this assumption, one could ask, "in what way or manner did the cross satisfy the unpaid debt; settle the score; satisfy God's honor; punish the guilty; make whole the loss?"

In each of these examples, for every loss or offence, there is a corresponding, fair and just means to resolve the situation. The answer is, the cross didn't satisfy anything. The cross of Christ isn't like that. There is no sense in which the cross can be said to be "effective" or "efficacious" or "satisfied" or "fulfilled" or "fixed" or "discharged." Whatever debt, whatever loss, whatever guilt, whatever offence might stand between God and man has been forgiven. That is, the debt has been left unfulfilled, not satisfied, and no redress was required. God isn't interested in that.

Why did God require Israel to sacrifice bulls and goats? It isn't as if Israel destroyed God's goat or God's bull. The sacrificial lamb isn't a replacement lamb. The transaction isn't a matter of justice. God isn't asking for fair compensation. He isn't asking to be reimbursed, refunded or repaid. The sacrificial lamb is a token offering, giving expression to righteous sentiment. And God responds to righteous sentiment, because he cares not for bulls or goats but the inwardness of the man or woman who seeks mercy and forgiveness.

I disagree with your translation. Paul didn't mean to say, "on account of our justification". He meant to say, "for the sake of our justification." If Jesus had not been raised, we would not know for certain whether our petitions for mercy or forgiveness have been answered and accepted. But, as Paul says in Hebrews, because God raised Jesus from the dead, our petition for mercy has been "perfected" i.e. made certain.

 

[CadyandZoe]

“phenomenon of salvation”? That’s new to my hearing.

Yes, you and I both know that we supply nothing for our own salvation. Ultimately, our salvation solely depends on God's divine work. However, that isn't how we experience it. We have a conversion experience; we hear and listen to evangelists; we read the Bible and draw the right conclusion; someone confronts us on the street; we cry out to God in desperation. However we come to belief, whatever our story, we seem to participate in our own salvation, even as we also know that God was working behind the scenes, working in our hearts and minds, curing our volition etc.

Notice, Jesus’ commandment to the chosen apostles was to preach the gospel and also make disciples of all the nations. Now what is the gospel that the apostles preached? Is it not Jesus Christ ~ His person, life, death, and resurrection? The gospel is not about how to be saved, but about the salvation of God, that is come, Jesus Christ. As is any news that comes to people, we see some who believes and some who don’t. Those who believe, they are those whom Christ saved at the cross, by His death and resurrection. They will all be revealed in time, all from the time of Adam until the last day.

Tong
R4391

Well said.

 

[Tong2020]

You wrote "accepted by God as it is, Christ effectively had made propitiation for the sins of the whole world" with respect to1 John 2:2.

The phrase "the whole world" occurs in one other place in the First Book of John, and the next paragraph shows the location.

@Tong2020, do you believe that you, right now, are a part of "the whole world" as it is written in "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19)?

Sorry @Kermos, but I don’t see any good conversation will come from you, based on my experience with you. So, pardon me that I will not engage with a conversation with you.

Tong
R4403

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
How is Jesus’ resurrection from the dead said to be on account of our justification?

You keep asking me "how" questions. And I wonder what you have in mind. Let me explain. Some Christians take a "utilitarian" view of the cross, believing that the cross was efficacious with regard to one of the following: debt that needs to be paid; a score that needs to be settled; an offence against honor that stands unchallenged; a guilt that needs to be punished; a loss that needs to be made whole, or some other kind of cosmic debt to justice. Given this assumption, one could ask, "in what way or manner did the cross satisfy the unpaid debt; settle the score; satisfy God's honor; punish the guilty; make whole the loss?"

In each of these examples, for every loss or offence, there is a corresponding, fair and just means to resolve the situation. The answer is, the cross didn't satisfy anything. The cross of Christ isn't like that. There is no sense in which the cross can be said to be "effective" or "efficacious" or "satisfied" or "fulfilled" or "fixed" or "discharged." Whatever debt, whatever loss, whatever guilt, whatever offence might stand between God and man has been forgiven. That is, the debt has been left unfulfilled, not satisfied, and no redress was required. God isn't interested in that.

Why did God require Israel to sacrifice bulls and goats? It isn't as if Israel destroyed God's goat or God's bull. The sacrificial lamb isn't a replacement lamb. The transaction isn't a matter of justice. God isn't asking for fair compensation. He isn't asking to be reimbursed, refunded or repaid. The sacrificial lamb is a token offering, giving expression to righteous sentiment. And God responds to righteous sentiment, because he cares not for bulls or goats but the inwardness of the man or woman who seeks mercy and forgiveness.

I disagree with your translation. Paul didn't mean to say, "on account of our justification". He meant to say, "for the sake of our justification." If Jesus had not been raised, we would not know for certain whether our petitions for mercy or forgiveness have been answered and accepted. But, as Paul says in Hebrews, because God raised Jesus from the dead, our petition for mercy has been "perfected" i.e. made certain.

<<<I disagree with your translation. Paul didn't mean to say, "on account of our justification". He meant to say, "for the sake of our justification.">>>

Okay, if you prefer “for the sake of our justification”, let’s go with that then.

NET
He was given over because of our transgressions and was raised for the sake of our justification.

His resurrection, among others, is proof that His offering (propitiatory) was accepted by God. In that part of Romans 4, there is another thing that His resurrection is a proof of. It proves that God accepted Jesus’ sacrificial death for us, and that while we were yet sinners, as being a righteous act. One that God is well pleased with, to the point that, God has highly exalted Him, to live forever, to sit at the right hand of God, to make intercession for us, for our justification. And He stand to be our High priest, Mediator, and Advocate, to God. His resurrection proves that His once and for all sacrifice for sin was accepted by God, His dying for us and our sins, effectively attained for us, justification in the sight of God, through faith in Him. With faith accounted by God to us for righteousness apart from works. Such righteousness is imputed unto us, as it was unto Abraham.

Further, as Paul pointed out to the church in Corinth, if Christ is not risen, then we are still in our sins. We are still guilty and are not justified.

Tong
R4404

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
“phenomenon of salvation”? That’s new to my hearing.

Yes, you and I both know that we supply nothing for our own salvation. Ultimately, our salvation solely depends on God's divine work. However, that isn't how we experience it. We have a conversion experience; we hear and listen to evangelists; we read the Bible and draw the right conclusion; someone confronts us on the street; we cry out to God in desperation. However we come to belief, whatever our story, we seem to participate in our own salvation, even as we also know that God was working behind the scenes, working in our hearts and minds, curing our volition etc.

<<<Yes, you and I both know that we supply nothing for our own salvation.>>>

Yes, we do.

<<<Ultimately, our salvation solely depends on God's divine work.>>>.

Yes, solely.

<<<However we come to belief, whatever our story, we seem to participate in our own salvation, even as we also know that God was working behind the scenes, working in our hearts and minds, curing our volition etc. >>>

Yes, we seem to participate in our own salvation. It only seems we do, but in truth, do not. That the knowledge that we in truth do not, comes later, for most, if not for all who are being saved.

Notice, Jesus’ commandment to the chosen apostles was to preach the gospel and also make disciples of all the nations. Now what is the gospel that the apostles preached? Is it not Jesus Christ ~ His person, life, death, and resurrection? The gospel is not about how to be saved, but about the salvation of God, that is come, Jesus Christ. As is any news that comes to people, we see some who believes and some who don’t. Those who believe, they are those whom Christ saved at the cross, by His death and resurrection. They will all be revealed in time, all from the time of Adam until the last day.

Well said.

Thanks and Praise be to God!

Tong
R4405

 

[brightfame52]

Because He did not die for them !

The reason why the wrath of God is upon men as in Jn 3:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

In the original the word abideth is in the present tense, the wrath of God is presently abiding on them which believe not !

And why is it that the wrath of God shall yet come upon upon men as in Eph 5:6

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

This wrath of God I believe is yet future as it refers to these scriptures Rom 2:5

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Rev 6:17

For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Yet those of us He died for were delivered from that wrath by His death 1 Thess 1:10

10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead[after having died for us], even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

His Resurrection for us is proof that His death delivered us from the wrath to come !850

Now the reason for this wrath upon men is not so much because of their unbelief, but more importantly, its because Christ never propitiated Gods wrath as it concerned them, He never for them satisfied God Law and Justice against their sins ! He never was their Surety, He never knew them !

 

[Tong2020]

Because He did not die for them !

The reason why the wrath of God is upon men as in Jn 3:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

In the original the word abideth is in the present tense, the wrath of God is presently abiding on them which believe not !

And why is it that the wrath of God shall yet come upon upon men as in Eph 5:6

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

This wrath of God I believe is yet future as it refers to these scriptures Rom 2:5

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Rev 6:17

For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Yet those of us He died for were delivered from that wrath by His death 1 Thess 1:10

10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead[after having died for us], even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

His Resurrection for us is proof that His death delivered us from the wrath to come !850

Now the reason for this wrath upon men is not so much because of their unbelief, but more importantly, its because Christ never propitiated Gods wrath as it concerned them, He never for them satisfied God Law and Justice against their sins ! He never was their Surety, He never knew them !

<<<The reason why the wrath of God is upon men as in Jn 3:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

In the original the word abideth is in the present tense, the wrath of God is presently abiding on them which believe not !>>>

Yes, to them who believe not. And needless to say, it concerns only those who had seen Him, His works, and heard of His words and who He claims to be, and did not believe.

<<<……Now the reason for this wrath upon men is not so much because of their unbelief,…>>>

I believe it is.

Tong
R4411

 

[Kermos]

Sorry Kermos, but I don’t see any good conversation will come from you, based on my experience with you. So, pardon me that I will not engage with a conversation with you.

Tong
R4403

If you answer "yes" to the question, then you cannot be a Christian because the Apostle John wrote in the same book "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:14); moreover, the person that has overcome the evil one cannot simultaneously lie in the evil one.

If you answer "no" to the question, then you admit that the phrase "the whole world" does not include everybody everywhere; moreover, this has profound implications for 1 John 2:2.

If you do not answer the question, then you draw back and fall (John 18:6) because your free-willian philosophy is no match for the Holy Spirit inspired Word!

Here is the question that God had me pose to you.

@Tong2020, do you believe that you, right now, are a part of "the whole world" as it is written in "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19)?

I posed the question because you wrote "accepted by God as it is, Christ effectively had made propitiation for the sins of the whole world" with respect to1 John 2:2., and the phrase "the whole world" occurs in one other place in the First Book of John, and the previous paragraph shows the location.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Because He did not die for them !

The reason why the wrath of God is upon men as in Jn 3:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

In the original the word abideth is in the present tense, the wrath of God is presently abiding on them which believe not !

And why is it that the wrath of God shall yet come upon upon men as in Eph 5:6

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

This wrath of God I believe is yet future as it refers to these scriptures Rom 2:5

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Rev 6:17

For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Yet those of us He died for were delivered from that wrath by His death 1 Thess 1:10

10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead[after having died for us], even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

His Resurrection for us is proof that His death delivered us from the wrath to come !850

Now the reason for this wrath upon men is not so much because of their unbelief, but more importantly, its because Christ never propitiated Gods wrath as it concerned them, He never for them satisfied God Law and Justice against their sins ! He never was their Surety, He never knew them !

None of the verses you quote speak to the question. Have you ever read this passage?

Romans 5:6-11

For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Points to consider:
Christ died for us while we were still helpless
Christ died for the ungodly
Christ died for sinners, while they were yet sinners
We were reconciled while we were enemies
We shall be saved by his life.

For this reason, the New Testament says that Christ died for the whole world. The scriptures you quoted speak to the part I highlighted in bold. The world isn't saved by his death because no one is saved by his death. Those whom God is saving are saved by his life. This is a very important distinction don't you think?

 

[Tong2020]

None of the verses you quote speak to the question. Have you ever read this passage?

Romans 5:6-11

For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Points to consider:
Christ died for us while we were still helpless
Christ died for the ungodly
Christ died for sinners, while they were yet sinners
We were reconciled while we were enemies
We shall be saved by his life.

For this reason, the New Testament says that Christ died for the whole world. The scriptures you quoted speak to the part I highlighted in bold. The world isn't saved by his death because no one is saved by his death. Those whom God is saving are saved by his life. This is a very important distinction don't you think?

Wouldn’t it be a mistake and dangerous even, to say that no one is saved by Christ’s death? It gives the wrong impression that Christ’s death is unnecessary in God’s salvation work of mankind. It is a double mistake to separate Christ’s death from His life, and put a distinction such as making His death as to not save anyone and His life as that which saves.

In Romans 5:10, we read “we shall be saved by His life”. May I ask, what do you take of the life of Christ there as referring to?

Tong
R4431

 

[Kermos]

None of the verses you quote speak to the question. Have you ever read this passage?

Romans 5:6-11

For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Points to consider:
Christ died for us while we were still helpless
Christ died for the ungodly
Christ died for sinners, while they were yet sinners
We were reconciled while we were enemies
We shall be saved by his life.

For this reason, the New Testament says that Christ died for the whole world. The scriptures you quoted speak to the part I highlighted in bold. The world isn't saved by his death because no one is saved by his death. Those whom God is saving are saved by his life. This is a very important distinction don't you think?

Since you wrote "Christ died for the whole world" which appears to be a reference to 1 John 2:2, then here is a question for you:

@CadyandZoe, do you believe that you, right now, are a part of "the whole world" as it is written in "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19)?