You dont understand propitiationI was asking because it seems to me that you take “propitiation” as though it is something done that result to salvation unto eternal life, which is not. And that influences one’s reading of scriptures.
While the death of Christ is “propitiation” which is salvific, as it attains the mercy of God pertaining His wrath upon the wickedness of man, all men that is, it is not unto eternal life. Mercy, as a blessing, that is an act of divine favor or compassion towards all of mankind. In this sense, God had reconciled the whole world to Himself, through the death of His Son Jesus Christ, without which, He could have just destroyed all mankind as He had done in the past.
Now that is salvation, but not salvation unto eternal life.
Tong
R4466
The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !
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And I guess that is your best argument against what I said in my post?
Well,….
I did not expect that coming from you.
Tong
R4483
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
1Th 2:13 Therefore, we never stop thanking God that when you
received his message from us, you didn’t think of our words as mere human ideas. You accepted what we said as the very word of God—which, of course, it is. And this word continues to work in you who believe.
1Th 2:14 And then, dear brothers and sisters, you suffered persecution from your own countrymen. In this way, you imitated the believers in God’s churches in Judea who, because of their belief in Christ Jesus, suffered from their own people, the Jews.
1Th 2:15 For some of the Jews killed the prophets, and some even killed the Lord Jesus. Now they have persecuted us, too. They fail to please God and work against all humanity
1Th 2:16 as they try to keep us from preaching the Good News of salvation to the Gentiles. By doing this, they continue to pile up their sins. But the anger of God has caught up with them at last.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
SMH..
received his message from us, you didn’t think of our words as mere human ideas. You accepted what we said as the very word of God—which, of course, it is. And this word continues to work in you who believe.
1Th 2:14 And then, dear brothers and sisters, you suffered persecution from your own countrymen. In this way, you imitated the believers in God’s churches in Judea who, because of their belief in Christ Jesus, suffered from their own people, the Jews.
1Th 2:15 For some of the Jews killed the prophets, and some even killed the Lord Jesus. Now they have persecuted us, too. They fail to please God and work against all humanity
1Th 2:16 as they try to keep us from preaching the Good News of salvation to the Gentiles. By doing this, they continue to pile up their sins. But the anger of God has caught up with them at last.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
SMH..
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I know what it means. Tong is correct. Propitiation does not equate to salvation.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Of course.
I disagree. The Bible teaches us that our sins are forgiven.
I also disagree with you here. Jesus' indestructibility is not a characteristic of his intrinsic nature. If it were then we would also be God at our resurrection. 1 Corinthians 15:50-57.
But let's not lose Paul's point. The fact that Jesus has an indestructible life has meaning and significance for those of us who put our hope in him for the resurrection. That is, since he has an indestructible life, he will be alive when it's time to blow the trumpet. That's the main point.
Well, there is a contradiction, but it may be hard to see because the hypostatic union is hard to navigate (and I include myself in that category.) Here is what I have discovered. When the Bible is talking Jesus in his humanity, it refers to him as "Jesus" or "Jesus Christ" or "Jesus Christ our Lord." When it speaks about him in his divinity, it refers to him as "Word" or "The Word". Jesus (the man) didn't have an indestructible life for obvious reasons. He died. If someone with an indestructible life can die, then the word indestructible is meaningless. If someone with an indestructible life needs to be raised from the dead, again, the word indestructible is meaningless.
Yes, but we must also include the ascension, which gets even less attention than the resurrection, I think.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
You do. And they are not about what propitiation is for you, but about your view that Jesus did not die for all mankind without exception.
Tong
R4517
Yes the Bible teach that. But that does not take away the truth that it was necessary that Jesus lives and does things in keeping with the Law and satisfy the Law. Besides, the law foreshadows, if not speaks of what were necessarily to be done according to the justice of God, to keep the chosen people reconciled to God, keep God’s wrath from coming upon them, to offer peace offering, to offer sacrifices of atonement, and sacrifices for the forgiveness of sin, and so on. And in God’s time, the true and real Lamb of God came. Christ came to fulfill the law, and that, once and for all. Further, in the justice of God, according to the law, almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission, there is no forgiveness of sin.
This obviously has to do with the matter that while Jesus is truly and fully human, He is truly and fully Divine.
Further, I think this has to do with our understanding of what death is.
Also perhaps of what we take of “indestructible” to be, at least.
Yes. Needless to say, Jesus, who resurrected and is now alive for ever and ever, is ever there for all time, living to the ages of the ages, and will resurrect the chosen children of God unto eternal life.
What contradiction is there in your view?
<<<Jesus (the man) didn't have an indestructible life for obvious reasons. He died.>>>
I won’t put it that way. For while that emphasizes the humanity of Jesus Christ, it unnecessarily de/emphasizes His Deity.
<<<If someone with an indestructible life can die, then the word indestructible is meaningless.>>>
As I said, I think this has to do with our understanding of what death is. Also perhaps of what we take of “indestructible” to be, at least.
That Jesus Christ tasted death does not in any way, shape, or form, mean to say that the life in Him is destroyed or that His life is destructible.
I agree.
Tong
R4518
Yes. That is concerning man. For even killing a not innocent man is immoral for man to do.
But while the people who killed Jesus sinned in doing so, it was not sin for Jesus to give up His life and die for others, and both of His own accord and in obedience to God, for the good of others.
Tong
R4519
I Pray not for the World, but for them you given me !
Jn 17:9
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
This is a strange prayer of the Lord, if indeed He died for all men without exception, and having Loved them Jn 3:16 and having their eternal interest for the good at Heart. The Lord Jesus Christ as Mediator 1 Tim 2:5 prayed only for those given Him [in election] His Sheep, as He said earlier that they were given Him Jn 10:26-29
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Notice the statement in Vs 29 "My Father, which gave them me"
The word gave here, the greek word didomi is the very same word given in Jn 17:9, both times it refers to God's Elect or Sheep, or Church, and quite frankly they are the only ones He prays and intercedes for.
Now He prays for those that were believing at the Time of His Ministry, and for the Ones who shall believe on Him in the future Jn 17:20
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
hence it is scripturally reasonable to state that He died only for Believers, and those who shall believe, now if they never believe, its because they were never of that Sheep World of His that He died for and prayed for Jn 10:26872
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
I never knew you, nor died for you or prayed for you if you are not of that Sheepfold the Father gave me !
Jn 17:9
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
This is a strange prayer of the Lord, if indeed He died for all men without exception, and having Loved them Jn 3:16 and having their eternal interest for the good at Heart. The Lord Jesus Christ as Mediator 1 Tim 2:5 prayed only for those given Him [in election] His Sheep, as He said earlier that they were given Him Jn 10:26-29
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Notice the statement in Vs 29 "My Father, which gave them me"
The word gave here, the greek word didomi is the very same word given in Jn 17:9, both times it refers to God's Elect or Sheep, or Church, and quite frankly they are the only ones He prays and intercedes for.
Now He prays for those that were believing at the Time of His Ministry, and for the Ones who shall believe on Him in the future Jn 17:20
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
hence it is scripturally reasonable to state that He died only for Believers, and those who shall believe, now if they never believe, its because they were never of that Sheep World of His that He died for and prayed for Jn 10:26872
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
I never knew you, nor died for you or prayed for you if you are not of that Sheepfold the Father gave me !
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
It's sinful, some would say evil, for God to punish Jesus instead of me. But God didn't punish Jesus instead of me. God forgave my sins. Right? Matthew 9:2 And he continues to forgive my sins. 1 John 1:9 To forgive sins is to absolve from payment.
At the end of Romans chapter 5, Paul argues that grace trumps justice. Or in his words, God's grace is overabundant. (It superabounds) God forebears sins; he passes over them; eventually he takes them away.
So then, if God forgives our sins, why the cross then? What did Jesus say about going to the cross? What purpose did he give for his own sacrifice? In his words, his blood would inaugurate a new, eternal covenant. Luke 22:20 1 Corinthians 11:25 He gave his blood for the forgiveness of sins. Matthew 26:28 And though we are forgiven of our sins, we remain slaves of sin. John 8:34. Jesus likens the cross to the fiery serpent Moses lifted up on a staff. Numbers 21:8, John 3:14 He tells the people that he came to set the people free. John 8:36 Presumably this is why the cross is associated with redemption, which is the act of paying to have prisoners set free. Ephesians 1:7
Since Jesus likens the cross to the fiery serpent Moses placed on a staff, we understand the essential correlation between them involves the way the cross is perceived by the penitent. What do you see? What does it indicate? What does it mean to me personally? These are the questions we face when we think about the cross. And since Jesus made this association, perhaps this is the reason why Paul argues that the cross served as a public demonstration -- again, optics. Romans 3:26
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Jesus tells a parable about a man who owed the king more money than he could ever repay. In that parable, that same man refused to forgive his neighbor of a very small debt. Having heard this, the King had the man arrested and brought before him. And the man was then put in debtor's prison. The point of the parables seems to be this. Given that God has forgiven us for all our great sins, we should be willing to forgive our neighbor for all their sins against us. If we are not willing to forgive our neighbor, then God will not forgive us. Matthew 18:23-35
The underlying principle here is the basic idea of forgiveness: to forgive debt is to absolve from payment. Consider the parable again but this time suppose another king came along and decided to pay the first king the ten thousand talents. Since the first king paid the debt, the account will read "paid" rather than "forgiven". In the view of many Christians, expiation of sin is like a second king who decided to pay the debt for all those who wish to serve that king. And by this gracious act, none of his followers owed the first king any money. But it escapes their notice that God would be a liar if he said that he forgave us our sins, since Jesus paid for them instead.
While it is true that Jesus came to fulfill the law, and he did, it doesn't follow that the death of Jesus on a cross was legal or satisfied any sort of legislation. Paul argues that we are being justified apart from the Law. And What Jesus did for us, he did, because the Law couldn't do it. Romans 8:1-4
When the New Testament speaks about "Jesus", it refers to the human being, not the divine.
Either he died or he didn't.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Okay. Thanks for the information. You know, the term "propitiation" indicates a complex idea. There is the god who is offended; there is those who have committed the offence; there is the thing, which offered, seeks to mollify or appease the god.
With regard to the one true God, the living God, he doesn't need anything. He has the power of creation and so if he wants something, he simply speaks it into existence. John 1:3 We also know that God isn't actually interested in sacrifices or religious rituals of any kind. Rather, the one true God is interested in "righteous attitudes", which come from good and honest hearts. Psalms 51:16-19.
So then, since the cross is described as an act of propitiation, and given that God isn't interested in sacrifices per se, we understand that the thing we offer to mollify God is our agreement concerning the meaning of the cross, which must include self-reflection and self-examination and having found ourselves wanting, we respond to the cross with contrition, honesty, and repentance.
The cross is a universal means to propitiation because no person is excluded from this means of reconciliation. That is, God will make peace with anyone who accepts his terms of peace, which essentially involve the act of contrition and repentance in view of what the cross represents.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I have studied the subject. Obviously we haven't drawn the same conclusions from our study.
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