The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[brightfame52]

I Pray not for the World, but for them you given me ! 2

A reason why Christ prayed not for the World of Jn 17:9 is because they in it were not given to Him by the Father as the others were who do and shall believe on Him. Now those given to Him were God the Fathers special Chosen ones, those who before the foundation of the World He had Chosen for Himself Eph 1:3-4

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The word Chosen here , the greek word eklegó which means:

I pick out for myself, choose, elect, select.

"out of" and 3004 /légō, "speaking to a conclusion") – properly, to select (choose) out of, by a highly deliberate choice (i.e. real heart-preference) with a definite outcome (as with the destination of divine selection for salvation).

to pick or choose out for oneself

Its in what is called in the greek the middle voice meaning:

The middle voice indicates the subject performing an action upon himself (reflexive action) or for his own benefit !

The Subject here is God performed unto Himself , for His Own benefit or His Own Sake, like when it is said Ps 79:9

9 Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake.

reputation, fame, glory

Isa 43:7

7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him

These God Created for His Own Glory, He gave them to Christ, and they are the ones Christ prayed for in Jn 17:9 and not the rest of the world, they were both the Fathers and then His Jn 17:10

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. They are His People Matt 1:21

Now those God the Father gave to Christ are in and of themselves a World. They are particular ones given, separated from the rest, and one of the definition of the word world kosmos is:

VIII.any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

And the word particular means of or belonging to a single or specific person, thing or category, specific or special or peculiar Just like its said of God's Chosen Israel He so Loved Deut 7:

6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

Thats a World according to the definition of kosmos, so hence all those given Christ in Jn 17:9, are entirely different from the ones He does not pray for in Jn 17:9, and that cannot be debated ! And this World that Christ does Pray for, id the World God so Loved, and Christ came to save Jn 3:16-17

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

The World of His Chosen Deut 7:6-7 !

 

[CadyandZoe]

You just confirming you dont know what propitiation is.

Tell me something about propitiation that you think I don't know. I am open to correction.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I certainly cant tell friend.

I apologize for not communicating better.

 

[brightfame52]

I Pray not for the World, but for them you given me ! 3

What was one of the things Christ prayed for concerning those He died for ! Now remember when Christ prayed for specific ones in Jn 17:9, He not only prayed for them, but also for them that shall believe on Him from their Word or Testimony Jn 17:19

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Mainly this is a Prayer for the Church His Body ! And for these same ones He sanctified Himself Jn 17:19

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

This sanctifying of Himself here means He died for them as their High Priest, He offered Himself in their behalf Heb 10:10

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

And one of the things He prayed for as it regards them in particular, is that they be Sanctified through God's Truth Jn 17:17,19

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Hence it follows that if any one of them that He died for, He sanctified Himself for, is not Sanctified through the Truth of God, Christ's Prayer was not answered and honored by the One He prayed to ! What an horrible conclusion that would be. I ask, is it possible, that one Christ died for, to live to live their life and die, or Christ returns, without ever being Sanctified through God's Truth ? I say NO, what say you ?

BTW To pray that they shall be sanctified through the Truth automatically implies Hes praying that they be given Faith/belief of the Truth 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: The word belief here is the same noun for faith.

 

[brightfame52]

Tell me something about propitiation that you think I don't know. I am open to correction.

I have already mentioned propitiation and its meaning in this thread. Don't you know how to check that ? The site provides functions for that.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I have already mentioned propitiation and its meaning in this thread. Don't you know how to check that ? The site provides functions for that.

So you would rather not talk about? Okay. Do you share your information in order to be "seen by men?" Or are you trying to be helpful?

 

[CadyandZoe]

I have already mentioned propitiation and its meaning in this thread. Don't you know how to check that ? The site provides functions for that.

I asked you to correct me. In order to do that, you need to read MY posts. Have you been reading my posts? I don't think so.

Here is the basic definition of propitiation: making peace with God. And the question is, what are the terms that make for peace? What will God accept such that his wrath is mollified?

After reading your posts, I think you are confusing "meaning" with "significance." How words are defined and what the concept implies are two distinct but related things.

 

[brightfame52]

Here's the Will of the Father for Christ !

Jn 6:40

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This speaks to limited atonement, and here's why; Its the Fathers will says Christ, not all without exception, but for all or everyone which seeth [Spiritually] the Son and Believeth on Him, for them to be having everlasting life !

Notice the particular clarification here, its restricted to them who are first seeing the Son ! Folks this seeing does not mean a mere physical seeing as many of the jews did in the days of His dlesh, but its a Spiritual seeing. The word for see here is the greek word theoreo and means:

I.to be a spectator, look at, behold

A.to view attentively, take a view of, survey

i.to view mentally, consider


discern, (literally, figuratively (experience) or intensively (acknowledge)):—behold, consider, look on, perceive

Its a seeing in a spiritual contemplation, it denotes a concentration, to see Him in a noteworthy and significant manner, as valuable. Remember Peter said of believers this 1 Pet 2:7

7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious/valuable: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,896

Notice that word precious, hence they are seeing Him in a Spiritual and Mentally way, in a deeply thoughtful manner, He is seen as Valuable and being Valued ! This kind of seeing of Christ comes from having Spiritual Life abiding in one by the unction and presence of the Holy Spirit, how He makes Christ known, by revealing Him, so that He captures our Spiritual attention on the things of Christ's Person and Work Jn 16:14

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

So its not just anyone whom Christ comes to save according to the Will of the Father Jn 6:37-40 !

 

[brightfame52]

So you would rather not talk about? Okay. Do you share your information in order to be "seen by men?" Or are you trying to be helpful?

I talked about it already, you didnt pay attention then.

 

[brightfame52]

I asked you to correct me. In order to do that, you need to read MY posts. Have you been reading my posts? I don't think so.

Here is the basic definition of propitiation: making peace with God. And the question is, what are the terms that make for peace? What will God accept such that his wrath is mollified?

After reading your posts, I think you are confusing "meaning" with "significance." How words are defined and what the concept implies are two distinct but related things.

I gave what I believe propitiation means biblically. You need to read my posts.

 

[brightfame52]

Who does Christ specifically say He died for here ?

Jn 10:11,15

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Now does Christ know all men to be His Sheep in light og Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I gave what I believe propitiation means biblically. You need to read my posts.

Sorry, I don't have time to read them all.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I talked about it already, you didnt pay attention then.

Isn't this a discussion board? I don't think this is a teaching board. I didn't ask you what you believed about propitiation. I asked you to tell me where my view of propitiation is in error. This requires you to read MY posts and understand them, something you seem unwilling to do.

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry, I don't have time to read them all.

You dont have to read them all. Dont you know how to use the search option ?

 

[brightfame52]

Isn't this a discussion board? I don't think this is a teaching board. I didn't ask you what you believed about propitiation. I asked you to tell me where my view of propitiation is in error. This requires you to read MY posts and understand them, something you seem unwilling to do.

Yes it is a discussion board, so why didnt you pay attention when I discussed it ? If you have done that, it would be quite clear where we differ. I know what you believe about it because I read what you posted already.

 

[Ezra]

Another popular Myth in the religious world today, is the Jesus Christ died or gave His Life for everyone in the world without exception, but the problem with that, is there is not one shred of scripture evidence that states that.

The scripture however does say that He died for His Sheep or His Church as per Jn 10:11,15

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Eph 5:25

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

His People Isa 53:8

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. cp Matt 1:21

Now, are all without exception His Sheep ? No

Are all without exception His Church ? No

Are all without exception His People ? No

For surely the seed of the serpent Gen 3:15 cannot be of His Sheep, His Church, or His People.

So why does the religous world proclaim that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, when they have no scripture proof ? Because it is a Myth.

Calvinism 101 there the only ones saved

 

[brightfame52]

Calvinism 101 there the only ones saved

Did you pay any attention to the scripture I used in that post ?

 

[brightfame52]

Jesus Mission was never to come and save all mankind

The Lord Jesus Christs Mission was never to come and save all humanity or mankind, but only a remnant of it, which is seen when we consider Isa 49:3-8

3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.

5 And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.

6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
Isaiah 9:7 see also Daniel 2:44 Daniel 7:14 he shall reign in the hearts of his people here unto the end of the world; and with his saints a thousand years in the new heavens and new earth; and with them to all eternity, in the ultimate glory.

Now lets start here at Vs 3, Tis Christ speaking, He is God's Servant Elect Israel also Isa 42:1, and in Isa 49:5 , as God's Servant His mission for God was to " to bring Jacob again to him"

In Vs 6 "be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob" and " to restore the preserved of Israel"

We have 3 Salvation statements here, first " to bring Jacob again to him"

He was to bring them back to God, yet not all men without exception, but particularly Jacob, or the Sons of Jacob Mal 3:6

6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

or Jacob them He Loved Mal 1:2

The burden of the word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi.

2 I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob,

See Rom 9:13 !

Then you have the seed of Jacob Ps 22:23

23 Ye that fear the Lord, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.

Isa 45:19

19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the Lord speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

Since its the Seed of Jacob He is to bring back, its to that Seed its bidded to Seek the Lord ! In fact compare Isa 45:19 with Acts 17:27

27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

They no doubt is the Seed of Jacob, not all mankind without exception !


Or the House of Jacob Isa 2:5

5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the Lord.

Isa 10:20

20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

Isa 14:1

For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

Lk 1:33

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

John Gill on this verse writes:

And he shall reign over the house of Jacob,.... Not over the Jews, the posterity of Jacob, in a literal sense; but over the whole Israel of God, consisting of Jews and Gentiles. For as his father David reigned over the Idumeans, Syrians, and others, as well as over the house of Judah and Israel, so this his son shall reign over both Jews and Gentiles: his kingdom shall be from one end of the earth to the other, even over all the elect of God; who in successive generations call themselves by the name of Jacob, and surname themselves by the name of Israel, of whatsoever nation they be; and this reign of his shall be
for ever, and of his kingdom there shall be no end; referring to Isaiah 9:7 see also Daniel 2:44 Daniel 7:14 he shall reign in the hearts of his people here unto the end of the world; and with his saints a thousand years in the new heavens and new earth; and with them to all eternity, in the ultimate glory.

 

[Ezra]

Jesus Mission was never to come and save all mankind

that is amazing since the Bible says have all men be saved
1 Timothy 2:4

“Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”


will all be saved ? no since God gives mankind freewill there will always be those who reject salvation there is even the whosoever shall .
i been down this road so many times .butting heads with reformed/Calvinism teaching. i am like a pro wrestler scar tissue on my forehead.

facts are Christ paid the price so any that calls upon him can be saved
Romans 5:8
King James Version

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

2 Peter
Chapter 3 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

i am by far a universalists believes everyone gets saved and goes to heaven. but the cross was the penalty payment for sins . clearing the way that all can be saved provided they have been drawn by the spirit/conviction . its Jesus way truth life not mans doctrine

 

[ThePuffyBlob]

a forum full of endless debates
has anyone ever won? You guys keep on arguing, aren't you ever get tired?
have you ever wonder why there's a lot of different religions and different beliefs all over the world and you can't just push it onto others and hope they will agree with you nor can you help anyone be saved you can't even save your ownself yet you're trying so hard to save others you are not the good shepherd you might just be hirelings that will flee when the wolves come

2 Timothy 2

1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.

2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

5 And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.

6 The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.

7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

however you understand this it is up to you all of us are just the same we all have our own understanding have you also wonder why no religion seems to recommend other unrelated to their religion stating that this religion is also one of us a true church of God and if you join them they can help you be saved