Do we confuse Born Again with Salvation?

[TEXBOW]

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Salvation is yet to happen? We seek Salvation. We await Salvation.

 

[Ruminator]

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Salvation is yet to happen? We seek Salvation. We await Salvation.

The salvation referred to is from the persecution of the Judean persecution, the many antichrists who left their own ranks and the wrath to come:

[1 Thessalonians 1:6-10 NASB20] (6) You also became imitators of us and of the Lord, having received the word during great affliction with the joy of the Holy Spirit, (7) so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedonia and Achaia. (8) For the word of the Lord has sounded forth from you, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but in every place [the news of] your faith toward God has gone out, so that we have no need to say anything. (9) For they themselves report about us as to the kind of reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, (10) and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, [that is,] Jesus who rescues us from the wrath to come.

Notice the extreme imminence that John tells of:

[Matthew 3:5-12 NASB20] (5) At that time Jerusalem was going out to him, and all Judea and all the region around the Jordan; (6) and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, as they confessed their sins. (7) But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? (8) "Therefore produce fruit consistent with repentance; (9) and do not assume that you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham [as our] father'; for I tell you that God is able, from these stones, to raise up children for Abraham. (10) "And the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore, every tree that does not bear good fruit is being cut down and thrown into the fire. (11) "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. (12) "His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

The axe and the winnowing fork, implements of destruction and the separation of the wheat and chaff were all set to be used by Christ in Jerusalem. It all went down 40 years later.

[Luke 21:20-24 NKJV] (20) "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. (21) "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. (22) "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. (23) "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. (24) "And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The "times of the Gentiles" is a reference to Daniel, and it means 3.5 years:

[Daniel 12:7 NKJV] (7) Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who [was] above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that [it shall be] for a time, times, and half [a time]; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these [things] shall be finished.

Please see also:

[Daniel 7:25 NKJV] (25) He shall speak [pompous] words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then [the saints] shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time.

[Revelation 12:14 NKJV] (14) But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

The "Great Tribulation" is last 3.5 years of the Great Revolt of 70 AD/CE when the Temple and Jerusalem, etc. were destroyed. It is also call, "Jacob's Trouble":

[Jeremiah 30:4-9 NKJV] (4) Now these [are] the words that the LORD spoke concerning Israel and Judah. (5) "For thus says the LORD: 'We have heard a voice of trembling, Of fear, and not of peace. (6) Ask now, and see, Whether a man is ever in labor with child? So why do I see every man [with] his hands on his loins Like a woman in labor, And all faces turned pale? (7) Alas! For that day [is] great, So that none [is] like it; And it [is] the time of Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it. (8) 'For it shall come to pass in that day,' Says the LORD of hosts, '[That] I will break his yoke from your neck, And will burst your bonds; Foreigners shall no more enslave them. (9) But they shall serve the LORD their God, And David their king, Whom I will raise up for them.

 

[ScottA]

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Salvation is yet to happen? We seek Salvation. We await Salvation.

You make that sound like salvation cannot and is not available in this lifetime. Which is a point worth considering, because we certainly can attain it in this lifetime...which begs the question: What then is meant by "his appearing the second time", i.e., the second coming? How should it actually be defined?

But I do not ask for myself, but know the answer. Nonetheless, many/most do not.

 

[TEXBOW]

You make that sound like salvation cannot and is not available in this lifetime. Which is a point worth considering, because we certainly can attain it in this lifetime...which begs the question: What then is meant by "his appearing the second time", i.e., the second coming? How should it actually be defined?

But I do not ask for myself, but know the answer. Nonetheless, many/most do not.

My understanding is that Jesus first came to remove sin (his sacrifice) and his second coming is for Salvation. Now But Yet To Come. We that believe are saved but we still have an immortal body and struggle with the flesh as it was demoted and replaced by the Spirit.

 

[marks]

My understanding is that Jesus first came to remove sin (his sacrifice) and his second coming is for Salvation. Now But Yet To Come. We that believe are saved but we still have an immortal body and struggle with the flesh as it was demoted and replaced by the Spirit.

My understanding is that our salvation is incomplete as we await the redemption of our bodies. We are born from God, the spirit children of God, but living in corrupt flesh. The corruptible will put on incorruptibility.

Romans 8:19-25 KJV
19) For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20) For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21) Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22) For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23) And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24) For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25) But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Much love!

 

[Pythagorean12]

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Salvation is yet to happen? We seek Salvation. We await Salvation.

There's no confusion.
Salvation and Born Again are equivalent terms.
“Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit” John 3:6

 

[Ruminator]

You make that sound like salvation cannot and is not available in this lifetime. Which is a point worth considering, because we certainly can attain it in this lifetime...which begs the question: What then is meant by "his appearing the second time", i.e., the second coming? How should it actually be defined?

But I do not ask for myself, but know the answer. Nonetheless, many/most do not.

Salvation is to be rescued:

* from enemies:

[Luke 1:67-75, 77 NKJV] (67) Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying: (68) "Blessed [is] the Lord God of Israel, For He has visited and redeemed His people, (69) And has raised up a horn of salvation for us In the house of His servant David, (70) As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets, Who [have been] since the world began, (71) That we should be saved from our enemies And from the hand of all who hate us, (72) To perform the mercy [promised] to our fathers And to remember His holy covenant, (73) The oath which He swore to our father Abraham: (74) To grant us that we, Being delivered from the hand of our enemies, Might serve Him without fear, (75) In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life. ... (77) To give knowledge of salvation to His people By the remission of their sins,

* from drowning:

[Matthew 8:23-25 NKJV] (23) Now when He got into a boat, His disciples followed Him. (24) And suddenly a great tempest arose on the sea, so that the boat was covered with the waves. But He was asleep. (25) Then His disciples came to [Him] and awoke Him, saying, "Lord, save us! We are perishing!"

* from slavery:

[Acts 7:24-25 NASB20] (24) "And when he saw one [of them] being treated unjustly, he defended and took vengeance for the oppressed man by [fatally] striking the Egyptian. (25) "And he thought that his brothers understood that God was granting them deliverance [IE: salvation] through him; but they did not understand.

Christians tend to think only of salvation from some divine judgment or punishment or sin, but that's not intrinsic to the word. Jesus cried out to be saved out of death was saved!:

[Hebrews 5:7 NKJV] (7) who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear,

His second appearance was c. 70 AD/CE, when he judged between the sheep and the goats.

 

[Ruminator]

My understanding is that Jesus first came to remove sin (his sacrifice) and his second coming is for Salvation. Now But Yet To Come. We that believe are saved but we still have an immortal body and struggle with the flesh as it was demoted and replaced by the Spirit.

Did you mean to say "mortal body" or "immoral body"?

Regardless, this conversation is doomed because the word is used many times in scripture so without knowing the specific context, we are likely to come up which is not what the other is talking about!

 

[TEXBOW]

Did you mean to say "mortal body" or "immoral body"?

Regardless, this conversation is doomed because the word is used many times in scripture so without knowing the specific context, we are likely to come up which is not what the other is talking about!

You are correct, I meant mortal body. Meaning that we have a corrupted flesh that is in opposition to the Spirit. A body that fails, a body that will turn to dust. At the rapture we get a NEW immortal body. (I think I got that right)

 

[Ruminator]

My understanding is that our salvation is incomplete as we await the redemption of our bodies. We are born from God, the spirit children of God, but living in corrupt flesh. The corruptible will put on incorruptibility.

Romans 8:19-25 KJV
19) For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20) For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21) Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22) For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23) And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24) For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25) But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Much love!

Yes, the appetites in our body have an appointment with death when the body dies, but the New Covenant people have everlasting life. When they are absent from the body they are immediately present with the LORD, changed in the twinkling of an eye.

 

[Ruminator]

You are correct, I meant mortal body. Meaning that we have a corrupted flesh that is in opposition to the Spirit. A body that fails, a body that will turn to dust. At the rapture we get a NEW immortal body. (I think I got that right)

Yes, the appetites in our body have an appointment with death when the body dies, but the New Covenant people have everlasting life. When they are absent from the body they are immediately present with the LORD, changed in the twinkling of an eye.

 

[marks]

Yes, the appetites in our body have an appointment with death when the body dies, but the New Covenant people have everlasting life. When they are absent from the body they are immediately present with the LORD, changed in the twinkling of an eye.

I believe we are with Him now, only, being in flesh, we don't see that.

2 Corinthians 5, we know that if this earthy tent be taken down, we have a house from God, not made by hands, eternal in the heavens. This, not made by hands, that is, born of God, that which cannot be shaken as things that are made.

But what I want to point to, "We have". present active verb, it's now. Being born from God is to become alive in the celestial realm, only, we don't see it, because we are using our fleshy eyes. So our walk is by faith on not by sight. We can't see the reality of our lives, we have to accept it as truth told to us by God Himself.

And then live according to that truth, and not by what we see. As if all we are is what we see here.

I believe the body decays and awaits our resurrection, when Christ raises and transforms all who are In Christ. But until then, we remain the spirit children of God, real beings, with real existence, that is not dependant on our bodies, instead, we receive our life directly from Christ being united to Him.

Much love!

 

[Enoch111]

Salvation is yet to happen? We seek Salvation. We await Salvation.

Salvation has three tenses -- justification (past), sanctification (present), and glorification (future). Which is the ultimate phase of salvation. So that is what all the saints anticipate, await, and seek.

 

[Enoch111]

His second appearance was c. 70 AD/CE, when he judged between the sheep and the goats.

This is pure fantasy. The Second Coming of Christ is still in the future.

 

[ScottA]

My understanding is that Jesus first came to remove sin (his sacrifice) and his second coming is for Salvation. Now But Yet To Come. We that believe are saved but we still have an immortal body and struggle with the flesh as it was demoted and replaced by the Spirit.

Indeed, most prefer that explanation of life in the world after being saved, but still struggling with sin. Most consider it a "process." However, our perspective on the matter and seemingly being honest with ourselves about ongoing sin, is a poor perspective, one the scriptures do not support. That common position would make passages like "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new" (2 Corinthians 5:17) a lie.

Although it is not commonly known, the end will show all such sins as "for a time" (Revelation 12:14) including before as well as after being saved, and that being saved actually came after--not because we continue in sin, but because the one is revealed within the context of time, while the other exists outside of time in eternity. Which even science cannot deny, because time is an illusion limited to this world. And, yes, it will require "the renewing of your mind" to grasp it.

Good discussion!

 

[ScottA]

Salvation is to be rescued:

* from enemies:

[Luke 1:67-75, 77 NKJV] (67) Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying: (68) "Blessed [is] the Lord God of Israel, For He has visited and redeemed His people, (69) And has raised up a horn of salvation for us In the house of His servant David, (70) As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets, Who [have been] since the world began, (71) That we should be saved from our enemies And from the hand of all who hate us, (72) To perform the mercy [promised] to our fathers And to remember His holy covenant, (73) The oath which He swore to our father Abraham: (74) To grant us that we, Being delivered from the hand of our enemies, Might serve Him without fear, (75) In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life. ... (77) To give knowledge of salvation to His people By the remission of their sins,

* from drowning:

[Matthew 8:23-25 NKJV] (23) Now when He got into a boat, His disciples followed Him. (24) And suddenly a great tempest arose on the sea, so that the boat was covered with the waves. But He was asleep. (25) Then His disciples came to [Him] and awoke Him, saying, "Lord, save us! We are perishing!"

* from slavery:

[Acts 7:24-25 NASB20] (24) "And when he saw one [of them] being treated unjustly, he defended and took vengeance for the oppressed man by [fatally] striking the Egyptian. (25) "And he thought that his brothers understood that God was granting them deliverance [IE: salvation] through him; but they did not understand.

Christians tend to think only of salvation from some divine judgment or punishment or sin, but that's not intrinsic to the word. Jesus cried out to be saved out of death was saved!:

[Hebrews 5:7 NKJV] (7) who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear,

Please see post #15

His second appearance was c. 70 AD/CE, when he judged between the sheep and the goats.

His second appearance "does not come by observation." Luke 17:20 Which is to say, it is in the glory of the Father, i.e., in spirit...which began "soon/quickly" after his ascension at Pentecost. Revelation 22:12

 

[Wrangler]

Do we confuse Born Again with Salvation?

Only in so much as people confuse Cause and Effect. Salvation is like an inheritance. We are NOW in the will. It's just that the inheritance is not in affect until death. Or in this case, Judgment Day. We are already saved, the effect of being born again.

Born again is the cause of salvation. Born again through the Spirit of Christ. Hopes this helps.

 

[Bob Estey]

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Salvation is yet to happen? We seek Salvation. We await Salvation.

I think you'll find that when we repent of our sin, our troubles fade away.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

In this life, the Christian has the promise (something not yet realized) of salvation/eternal life (1 John 2:25). Salvation/everlasting life is in the world to come, (Luke 18:30). But it is mandatory to be born again to possess this promise of eternal life/salvation. In that sense I believe born again can be equated to salvation.

"so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation."
The Christian must "wait" through this mortal, corruptible life with all it problems, hardships, sickness, persecutions, etc., must endure unto the end to receive the fulfillment of that promise of eternal life in the world to come. Those not born again possess no such promise.

 

[PinSeeker]

This may not make sense on first blush, but it's not hard to understand: Because we are born again, we have received God's salvation, but we are also waiting for God's salvation, which is ready to be revealed in the last time, as Peter says in 1 Peter 1:5. Let me clarify:

The "now-and-not-yet" concept is central in God's infallible, inerrant Word. What we're talking about here, salvation, is much on the same plane as God's Kingdom, and even Jesus's coming (first coming, 2000 years ago) and return (second coming, at some point in the future). In a very real sense, God's Kingdom is here now (and has been for 2000-plus years). It came with Jesus; He brought it. But, too, it is not yet here in its fullness; that will not be the case until Jesus returns. This is what we call the "now-and-not-yet" of the Gospel.

Very similarly, we have been saved (justified by God and imputed with the righteousness of Christ, born again of the Spirit). But, too, we are being saved and will not be fully redeemed until Jesus returns; God will bring to completion the good work He began in us at the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6). Again, the "now-and-not-yet" of the Gospel. But, of course, even though "not yet," all this is an absolute certainty. Jesus made it so with His work on the cross; this is precisely what He was saying in crying out, "It is finished!" So we can live now as if it's already done. All God's promises have their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ Jesus.

Grace and peace to all.