Church Bashing

[Lambano]

I get literally ill over Freewill and over Eternal Torment of Unbelievers

Born to eternal torment vs. born to privilege doesn't sit well with me either.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The problem is if you pluck something meant as one thing and use it for another thing.

These will be declared righteous based on their works, and this is a different time than now. Taking this for the current time puts you in the position of adding works to faith, but in fact, faith isn't named there.

Anyway, you think it's now, that it's a parable, there's not going to be much common ground there.

Much love!

No. I think it’s future.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Born to eternal torment vs. born to privilege doesn't sit well with me either.

And it shouldn’t sit well with you.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And around and around and around and around we go . . .

If a believer helped another believer, they would know they had helped Christ. But they say, huh? When did we see you and help you?

It is believers who say, when did we see you and NOT help you?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

These will be declared righteous based on their works, and this is a different time than now. Taking this for the current time puts you in the position of adding works to faith, but in fact, faith isn't named there.

They are righteous. That’s what it says. You are very correct that faith is not mentioned there.
This is the second resurrection. I’m pretty sure…

The second group are told, I never knew you.

 

[Lambano]

These will be declared righteous based on their works, and this is a different time than now. Taking this for the current time puts you in the position of adding works to faith, but in fact, faith isn't named there.

Those are some of the socks that don't fit in the Reformation suitcase.

I joined this discussion late, so I didn't see your interpretation of these verses. If you have already done so, can you point me to them?

Could you also please explain your understanding of what purpose it serves God to torment human beings for ever and ever?

 

[farouk]

That is absolutely false, farouk. In context of the local church he gave gifts unto men. And the gifts he gave were Apostles, prophets, evengelists, pastors and teachers. These were given so that the saints could be perfected.

Overall, yes Christ is the head of the church, but he set men over it in his place.

In Acts 20, Paul - whose face they were to see no more - exhorted the elders of Ephesus to 'feed the flock of God', over which the Holy Ghost had made them overseers (plural). They (plural) were collectively responsible to their risen Head; there was no one man who was supposedly the head of the local church at Ephesus.

 

[farouk]

Those are some of the socks that don't fit in the Reformation suitcase.

I joined this discussion late, so I didn't see your interpretation of these verses. If you have already done so, can you point me to them?

Could you also please explain your understanding of what purpose it serves God to torment human beings for ever and ever?

"And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." (Revelation 21.27)

 

[FHII]

In Acts 20, Paul - whose face they were to see no more - exhorted the elders of Ephesus to 'feed the flock of God', over which the Holy Ghost had made them overseers (plural). They (plural) were collectively responsible to their risen Head; there was no one man who was supposedly the head of the local church at Ephesus.

Paul was the head. Through the Holy Ghost HE (Paul) appointed elders over them with instructions and warnings. Thus showing his leadership.

Concerning those instructions and warnings, he told the elder to be aware wolves. Without God's appointed leadership, this is what happens.

In his epistle to the Ephesians (written from Rome after he left Ephesus for the last time) he informs them that he was sending Tychicus, a faithful minister in the Lord, to advise and comfort them.

In that same epistle he lays out a hierarchy for the ministry: apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints.

Later, whole not in the Bible, it is said that Timothy and John pastored and served as bishop of Ephesus.

 

[Lambano]

@farouk

Can you elaborate on what you think the purpose of tormenting human souls for all eternity is?

John Piper thinks humans commit an infinite offense against an infinite God and thus eternal torment is justice. Mr. Piper may be more spiritual than I, but I disagree. Finite humans do not have the capability to commit an infinite offense.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

@farouk

Can you elaborate on what you think the purpose of tormenting human souls for all eternity is?

John Piper thinks humans commit an infinite offense against an infinite God and thus eternal torment is justice. Mr. Piper may be more spiritual than I, but I disagree. Finite humans do not have the capability to commit an infinite offense.

would you say blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is an infinite offense since it’s the only sin it says cannot be forgiven?

 

[Lambano]

would you say blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is an infinite offense since it’s the only sin it says cannot be forgiven?

Are we talking about rejection of the very Spirit that could heal us?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Are we talking about rejection of the very Spirit that could heal us?

Im not sure what other people think it means…I have thought it means messing with the holiness of God. Speaking wrongly of His holiness, handling His holiness wrongly, mixing righteousness with the holiness of God (mixing wool with linen to approach Him in the holy of holies.) Not following instructions regarding His holiness. Trying to approach His holiness uninvited. Sort of like that.

My friend showed it to me through scripture, comparing men and women who were instantly struck dead versus people who weren’t.
Like…the man told to go to a street called Straight who then argued, not being struck dead versus Uzzah, struck dead for not following instructions for handling the holiness of God.

That in righteousness and training in righteousness, a man can stumble many times and get back up but that in holiness, it’s like…one strike and you’re out.

 

[Lambano]

Im not sure what other people think it means…I have thought it means messing with the holiness of God. Speaking wrongly of His holiness, handling His holiness wrongly, mixing righteousness with the holiness of God (mixing wool with linen to approach Him in the holy of holies.) Not following instructions regarding His holiness. Trying to approach His holiness uninvited. Sort of like that.

My friend showed it to me through scripture, comparing men and women who were instantly struck dead versus people who weren’t.
Like…the man told to go to a street called Straight who then argued, not being struck dead versus Uzzah, struck dead for not following instructions for handling the holiness of God.

That in righteousness and training in righteousness, a man can stumble many times and get back up but that in holiness, it’s like…one strike and you’re out.

The context of Jesus's "Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" quote was the holy people saying that he used the power of Baal zeboul (a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew "Lord of S***") to cast out demons. In terms of my parable, the holy people do not trust the medicine that could heal them of their sickness, and so they refuse it.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The context of Jesus's "Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" quote was the holy people saying that he used the power of Baal zeboul (a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew "Lord of S***") to cast out demons. In terms of my parable, the holy people do not trust the medicine that could heal them of their sickness, and so they refuse it.

I don’t think a holy person, a person actually walking IN the Spirit, would say someone who cast out demons was working by satans power. I wouldn’t call those men holy…

 

[marks]

No. I think it’s future.

If you read it as prophecy, that's what the prophecy says. That's what Jesus prophesied would be done. Do you disagree with whether the words mean everlasting, and torment? Or do you see "torment" meaning "cessation of existence? How is it that you do not see Jesus saying that the unrighteous will be sent to everlasting torment? Or that you don't think that's what's going to happen?

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

If you read it as prophecy, that's what the prophecy says. That's what Jesus prophesied would be done. Do you disagree with whether the words mean everlasting, and torment? Or do you see "torment" meaning "cessation of existence? How is it that you do not see Jesus saying that the unrighteous will be sent to everlasting torment? Or that you don't think that's what's going to happen?

Much love!

Everlasting means forever. Living forever means forever living. Dying forever means forever dead.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

If both the container and it’s contents are destroyed, what is left?
If both body and soul (will, thoughts, emotions) are destroyed, what is left?

 

[marks]

If a believer helped another believer, they would know they had helped Christ. But they say, huh? When did we see you and help you?

It is believers who say, when did we see you and NOT help you?

This judgment is worth re-looking at, but first it has to be put in context of when it happens, and to whom. Do you see this judgment as a prophetic narrative, that the events described will occur as described?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Everlasting means forever. Living forever means forever living. Dying forever means forever dead.

And dead means what?

Much love!