Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

[brightfame52]

Man by nature, spiritually dead, are lost and without hope Eph 2:12

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Now i understand Paul here in the context is referring to the Gentiles, however and nevertheless this describes all men by nature in spiritual death, even jews.

Notice Paul writes these people were had no hope of Salvation, and they were without God. Why is that ? Paul is speaking spiritually, for even gentiles as creatures have God as a Creator, but spiritually they are without God and without hope. This describes the lost state of man by nature. To say man can naturally seek the True God contradicts this fact ! 35

 

[brightfame52]

Jer 29:12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.

Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Jer 29:14 And I will be found of you, saith the LORD


Pro 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

Obviously those scriptures are not in reference to the natural man, because scripture says of them Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[atpollard]

I just cannot accept a God who PURPOSELY creates some for eternal torture for some thing they have NO power over.

Ralph was born to an abusive alcoholic, suffered a traumatic head injury in a car accident as a teenager that left him a little slow and his father enough money in the lawsuit settlement to remain drunk. Shortly thereafter, his mother had enough beatings and ran off. Ralph spent the remainder of his teens and settlement getting high and being beaten with a belt. Then he died of an overdose.

I have absolutely no idea where Ralph will spend eternity (and am GRATEFUL that is not for me to decide), but just for the sake of argument and this discussion let us

1. reject Universal Salvation (not everyone goes to heaven)
2. accept at face value that Ralph's lack of "living a Christian life" indicated that he did not "believe".
3. accept your "synergystic" view that "Our Choice" is what makes the difference between those saved and those lost.

How does GOD walk away from Ralph's Eternal Torment with no blood on His hands?
How do we really lay 100% of the blame at Ralph's feet?

To be blunt, Ralph was far more "deserving" of a savior than I was ... his sins were far less and his struggles not of his making were far greater ... yet GOD chose to snatch me out of our shared world. So no "LOGICAL" argument about the need for "fair" will ever convince me that "it is all about OUR choice" when the empirical evidence screams that "it is all about GOD's choice".

• "You do not believe BECAUSE you are not my sheep ... My sheep hear my voice and follow ... My father has given them (my sheep) to Me"
• "Stop your complaining, nobody can come to me unless My Father draws them"
• "The will of the Father is that the Son lose none of those that the Father has given to Him"
• "Those He foreknew ... He predestined ... He called ... He justified ... He glorified."

Just like the Bible says.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I think the idea is that God's Grace and Benevolence is sufficient for everyone if everyone repents.

the big point is that little word "if". Jesus' death and resurrection made all men savable, but not all men will be saved.

Obviously not everyone does come to repentance, but if they did God is willing for them to be saved.

2Pe 2:9-10 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, (10) and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries,

But this does not say anything on how one comes to jesus. No one can come to jesus unless the Father draws is how the bible says people come to christ.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Romans 2:3-11 Paul gives a contrast between those who chose not to seek the Lord and those who do choose to seek the Lord. Those who choose not to seek God could have but instead made a free will choice of their own thereby making themselves culpable for not seeking God. God has never put any onus upon Himself to cause (regenerate) men to seek Him therefore God has no culpability for those who refuse to see Him. Paul was directing his comments in Romans 3:10-19 to the Jews, not everyone universally, to show the Jews they were sinners as the Gentiles and they could not attain justification/righteousness through the OT law of Moses. Though having that law was an advantage to the Jew, that OT law could not justify the Jew leaving them sinners as the Gentiles as Paul proves in verse 10-18. Paul then shows the Jew righteousness come by grace thru faith in Christ Romans 3:21-24.

This says nothing about a mans ability to choose.

They were those who sought the Lord:
2 Chronicles 14:7
2 Chronicles 15:4
2 Chronicles 26:3-5
Psalms 34:4
Ezra 4:2
Ezra 6:21
Zechariah 8:21

Israel was already gods covenanted people and hads free will restored. Teh unsaved man can do nothing to please god and choosing to obey God is something that pleases God. Romans 8 makes that clear.

Man cannot keep the law perfectly therefore unable to obtain righteousness through the law, but evidently Calvinism ASSUMES man is not able to seek, understand or have faith therefore unable to obtain righteousness thru faith. Because man cannot earn righteousness by keeping the law perfectly does not imply man is morally unable to seek God, unable to understand or unable to have faith. Again, because the Jew was unable to attain righteousness thru keeping the law does not imply in anyway that man is also unable to understand or seek God without God first having to act upon man.

It is not Calvin but the bible!

Romans 3:10-11
King James Version

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

This verse is not hard to understand!

So in Romans 3 Paul is speaking of the INABILITY OF THE LAW to justify the Jew and not the inability of man in understanding or seeking God for there were those who sought God (noted above) those who understood (the lost in Acts 2 and 7 understood what was preached to them). Man is not born totally depraved unable to understand, seek or have faith then God unjustly condemns man, holding man accountable for a depraved state man was passively born with.

And once again if one understands teh message, it is not because they have an innate ability in themselves, it is a gift from God>

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Just because in your system of Justice you condemn God for doing what He chooses to do- does not make it so! God was under no obligation to offer a way of salvation for Adam and all of his descendants . Teh fact that He made a way for some is His choosing. But you remind me of the argument Paul wrote about:

Romans 9:13-26
King James Version

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

 

[Stumpmaster]

But this does not say anything on how one comes to jesus. No one can come to jesus unless the Father draws is how the bible says people come to christ.

The drawing of the Father is open to all. Dare I say it is a no-brainer.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The drawing of the Father is open to all. Dare I say it is a no-brainer.

Then you are a universalist. For all who are drawn by the Father come to christ and all who come to Christ are not cast out! but we know this is not true for John 3:36 says:

John 3:36
King James Version

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

And saving faith only comes through god by the hearing of HIs Word. but many will hear His word and not be saved! Why?

Romans 9:14-24
King James Version

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Verse 16 is a key! It is not of anyone who wills! But God who shows mercy.

God has made all things for their purpose according to His glory and will. I am grateful he chose me, for I would have never chosen Him!

 

[Curtis]

Obviously those scriptures are not in reference to the natural man, because scripture says of them Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

1. Faith comes fro hearing the word of God. Romans 10:17

2. Jesus said that after He is raised up, He will draw all men unto Himself. John 12:32

3. All men are given a measure of faith. Romans 12:3

4. Calvinism is bogus.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

This says nothing about a mans ability to choose.

If those in Romans 2 have no ability to choose, then their impenitence must be due to a decree of God. So you have God decree them to be impenitent then God punishing them for their impenitence God forced upon them by decree? That makes God unjust.

Israel was already gods covenanted people and hads free will restored. Teh unsaved man can do nothing to please god and choosing to obey God is something that pleases God. Romans 8 makes that clear.

Post 34 you posted "There are NONE,0, NADA, ZIP, ZILCH, ZERO that seek after God!"
Now you back off that saying some can seek God?
Romans 3:10-19 Paul was proving from the OT law that the Jews were sinners just as the Gentiles. Paul was not proving the Jews were born totally depraved unable to seek God, unable to understand.

It is not Calvin but the bible!

Romans 3:10-11
King James Version

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

This verse is not hard to understand!



And once again if one understands teh message, it is not because they have an innate ability in themselves, it is a gift from God>

Then you are making God culpable for those who do not understand but no verse says such. Paul said
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Ephesians 3:4
Paul says nothing about needed some Divine intervention before being able to understand. Those in Acts 2 and 7 understood what was preached with no Divine intervention. Philip preached "Jesus" to the eunuch giving him understanding with no miraculous Divine intervention.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Just because in your system of Justice you condemn God for doing what He chooses to do- does not make it so! God was under no obligation to offer a way of salvation for Adam and all of his descendants . Teh fact that He made a way for some is His choosing. But you remind me of the argument Paul wrote about:

Your making salvation dependent upon some miraculous Diviner intervention thereby making God culpable for the lost for His failure to intervene an save them. your making man a victim of his birth and some sort of depraved nature you claim man is passively born with.

Romans 9:13-26
King James Version

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

I see no Calvinism in Romans 9 at all. You evidently assume Calvinism into the verses. I won't take the time to cover the whole chapter but Paul already knows God has broken off the once elect Jews (Romans 11:20-22) and grafted in the once non-elect Gentiles. Something not possible according to Calvinism. What Paul does in Romans 9 is to refute some of the long held false beliefs of the Jews and prove God was just, righteous in them casting them off.

What Paul does at the beginning of Romans 9 is to prove the Jews' long held belief that because they were decendants of Abraham therefore God had to choose them. John refuted that false Jewish belief in Matthew 3:9. Paul chooses to refute the false idea that God must base His choices and promises by using Jacob and Esau. Notice Paul skipped a generation and did not use Isaac and Ismael. If Paul used Isaac and Ismael the Jews would have argued God chose Isaac based on physical birth because Isaac was the true son of promise of Abraham & Sara whereas Ismael was the son of a handmaid. Hence Paul skips a generation and uses Jacob and Esau because they were both the true sons of Isaac whom the Jews saw as Abraham's true son of promise. Therefore the Jews could not make the same argument between Jacob and Esau they could between Isaac and Ismael. Paul's point to the Jews was to show Esau was as much the true son of Isaac & Abraham was was Jacob, yet Esau was not chosen. Thereby Paul refutes the Jews argument they must be of God's elect because of being descendants of Abraham for Esau (Edomites) were just as much the true sons of Abraham as Jacob (Israel) but Esau was not chosen.

---the choice between Jacob and Esau was not about salvation of these individuals but which one God would use to bring the Messiah into the world. No verse anywhere remotely suggests that Esau MUST be lost for not being chosen. Abraham and Melchizedek (Genesis 14:18-19) were contemporaries yet God chose Abraham and not Melchizedek. This choice in no way means Melchizedek will be lost being left unchosen.

---Paul proves the Jews long held belief that God must choose them simply because they were physical descendants of Abraham by showing Esau was just as much a true descendant of Abraham but not chosen. Thereby proving to the Jews God does NOT have to base His choices, promises on the physical birth. Paul further shows the physical birth plays no role in salvation when he tells the Jew "They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God". So who are God's children? "the children of the promise are counted for the seed". So children of promise are God's. Who are these "children of promise"? God had promises Abraham that thru him all nations would be blessed. Galatians 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." So anyone from any nation, Jew or Gentile, male or female, bond or free that becomes a Christian then belong's to Christ, a seed of Abraham and is "counted for seed". So any and all who obey the gospel by being baptized (Galatians 3:26-27) calling on the name of the Lord are the children of promise and not by a capricious, unconditional choice God made for men before the world began making God culpable for the lost.

---if we look further into the lives of Jacob and Esau, Esau threatened to kill Jacob (Genesis 27:41) when learning Jacob stole the blessing so Jacob flees (Genesis 27:42-43). Esau comes to Jacob with hundreds of men (Genesis 33:1-4), Jacob bows to Esau yet Esau "ran to meet him, and embraced him, and fell on his neck, and kissed him: and they wept". Jacob says "Nay, I pray thee, if now I have found grace in thy sight, then receive my present at my hand: for therefore I have seen thy face, as though I had seen the face of God, and thou wast pleased with me". They forgive each other over past events and dwelled in the same land. Their possessions became so great the land of Canaan could not hold both (Genesis 36:7). So God gave Esau MT Seir to dwell in (Deuteronomy 2:5) this was a blessing, not "hate". (The word 'hate' as used in the Bible can mean "less favor" or "love less" (Genesis 29:30-31; Matthew 10:37 cf Luke 14:26)). There is no indication at all Esau will be lost.

 

[Oceanprayers]

No man naturally can believe on Christ nor even believe in the True God, for what saith the scripture Lk 10:21-22

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Now to call upon the name of Jesus for Salvation as per Rom 10, the person must know who the Son is to believe Him Rom 10:14

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

There can be no true calling upon Christ without Faith and the knowledge of who He is and what He accomplished and for whom. Yet Jesus reveals that naturally "no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father"

So who Christ is in His True Glorious Person must be revealed to a man as it was to Peter here Matt 16:16-17

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

See Peter was Blessed, he didnt know who Jesus Christ really was by natural man ability but by Divine revelation.

I think God gives us faith. I think that's why those to whom he gifts faith are the elect of God.

"To those who have been allotted faith equally precious as ours in the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ."2Peter 1:1

Hebrews 12:2“Looking away unto Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith.”

 

[atpollard]

The drawing of the Father is open to all.

Except Esau (Malachi 1:3, Romans 9:13).

 

[brightfame52]

Friends the natural man doesnt seek the True God Rom 3:11 however he may seek a god, the god of his fleshly understanding. Man naturally doesnt want or desire the True God, he doesnt want to innately since he is an enemy of God, and his mind is enmity against God, the True God Rom 8:738

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Man naturally in his entire being is hostile and antagonistic towards the True God. Col 1:21

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

 

[brightfame52]

1. Faith comes fro hearing the word of God. Romans 10:17

2. Jesus said that after He is raised up, He will draw all men unto Himself. John 12:32

3. All men are given a measure of faith. Romans 12:3

4. Calvinism is bogus.

Again none of those scriptures refer to the natural man in light of Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[brightfame52]

I think God gives us faith. I think that's why those to whom he gifts faith are the elect of God.

"To those who have been allotted faith equally precious as ours in the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ."2Peter 1:1

Hebrews 12:2“Looking away unto Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith.”

God gives His Elect Faith when He gives them a New Birth, when that occurs they are no longer a natural man , but Spiritual.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

1. Faith comes fro hearing the word of God. Romans 10:17

2. Jesus said that after He is raised up, He will draw all men unto Himself. John 12:32

3. All men are given a measure of faith. Romans 12:3

4. Calvinism is bogus.

1. Is correct
2. Is correct but not in a salvific sense. If it were as in
John 6:44
King James Version

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Then you are a universalist!

3. You are incorrect

Romans 12:3
King James Version

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Paul is not addressing the world but the world of believers! The every is limited to "every man that is among you " and the letter was to believers!

4. I cannot speak for all of Calvinisam, but if you are referring to what is commonly known as the five points, that is not calvinism, but biblical truths.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I think God gives us faith. I think that's why those to whom he gifts faith are the elect of God.

"To those who have been allotted faith equally precious as ours in the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ."2Peter 1:1

Hebrews 12:2“Looking away unto Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith.”

If man can have faith only as a result of God giving him faith then;

1) such makes God culpable for the faithless/lost when He has no such culpability. Jesus was not fair nor just nor righteous in condemning those who had "little faith" (Matthew 8:26) when Jesus should have criticized God for failing to give those disciples sufficient faith.

2) the Bible teaches "one faith" (Ephesians 4:4-5), one system of faith that is truth (John 17:17) and truth never contradicts itself. Therefore if God gives men faith then He would give men the same 'like' faith....the same kind of faith. Then all those with their God given faith would all understand the Bible alike, there would be no contradictions for God is not the author of confusion. Forums as this would not exist and all the 1000's of religious groups with their all contradicting faiths would not exist with millions of people debating that one system of faith for all would be understanding it alike for all would have been given the same like faith/understanding. If God gave men faith then all those men would be of the "same mind", all would "speak the same thing" (1 Corinthians 1:10) and all would walk by the "same rule" (Philippians 3:16).

3) Hebrews 12:2 "our" is not in the original text and should not be in the verse. It should be rendered 'Author and finisher of 'the faith'. Jesus is author of the NT that teaches one faith, one system of faith. Jude 1:3 contend for "the faith" the one gospel system of faith that Christ Authored.

4) faith comes by hearing the word of God (Romans 10:17) without that word man could not have faith. But since God graciously gave man His word, God has in that sense given man the means to have faith through the word. Since God graciously gave man His word, that means God has fairly granted access to faith to all men, not just some.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

If those in Romans 2 have no ability to choose, then their impenitence must be due to a decree of God. So you have God decree them to be impenitent then God punishing them for their impenitence God forced upon them by decree? That makes God unjust.

No it must not be due to a decree of God. It is due to teh4 sin nature being completely unable to repent unless acted upon by god HImself. The bible is clear the natual man cannot please god (Rom.8), repentance pleases God, ergo the natural man in and of thmelves cannot repent.

Post 34 you posted "There are NONE,0, NADA, ZIP, ZILCH, ZERO that seek after God!"
Now you back off that saying some can seek God?
Romans 3:10-19 Paul was proving from the OT law that the Jews were sinners just as the Gentiles. Paul was not proving the Jews were born totally depraved unable to seek God, unable to understand.

Yes Paul was saying that all men are sinners, but He also said this:

Romans 3
King James Version

3 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

God had a covenant relationship with teh nation of Israel! that did not mean every Jew born in th eold covenant was automatically saved. but the age of grace began with the church! Though God has shown grace since Adam. God dealt with Israel far differently than He deals with th echurch.

I see no Calvinism in Romans 9 at all. You evidently assume Calvinism into the verses. I won't take the time to cover the whole chapter but Paul already knows God has broken off the once elect Jews (Romans 11:20-22) and grafted in the once non-elect Gentiles. Something not possible according to Calvinism. What Paul does in Romans 9 is to refute some of the long held false beliefs of the Jews and prove God was just, righteous in them casting them off.

Well I am only dealing with what is called teh five points of Calvinism known by the acronym TULIP. And God never forsakes those He elects to salvation. The five points does not deal with this so therefore your argument is moot.

What Paul does at the beginning of Romans 9 is to prove the Jews' long held belief that because they were decendants of Abraham therefore God had to choose them. John refuted that false Jewish belief i

Exactly! He is showing than man made beliefs do not override the word of God! Just like christians man made belief that unsaved man has free will and that believers can lose their salvastion !

--the choice between Jacob and Esau was not about salvation of these individuals but which one God would use to bring the Messiah into the world. No verse anywhere remotely suggests that Esau MUST be lost for not being chosen. Abraham and Melchizedek (Genesis 14:18-19) were contemporaries yet God chose Abraham and not Melchizedek. This choice in no way means Melchizedek will be lost being left unchosen.

Paul is simply showing that god is in control of all choices on earth!

---Paul proves the Jews long held belief that God must choose them simply because they were physical descendants of Abraham by showing Esau was just as much a true descendant of Abraham but not chosen. Thereby proving to the Jews God does NOT have to base His choices, promises on the physical birth.

And He never did! Having a covenant relationship with the nation did not mean automatic salvation!

---if we look further into the lives of Jacob and Esau, Esau threatened to kill Jacob (Genesis 27:41) when learning Jacob stole the blessing so Jacob flees (Genesis 27:42-43). Esau comes to Jacob with hundreds of men (Genesis 33:1-4), Jacob bows to Esau yet Esau "ran to meet him, and embraced him, and fell on his neck, and kissed him: and they wept". Jacob says "Nay, I pray thee, if now I have found grace in thy sight, then receive my present at my hand: for therefore I have seen thy face, as though I had seen the face of God, and thou wast pleased with me". They forgive each other over past events and dwelled in the same land. Their possessions became so great the land of Canaan could not hold both (Genesis 36:7). So God gave Esau MT Seir to dwell in (Deuteronomy 2:5) this was a blessing, not "hate". (The word 'hate' as used in the Bible can mean "less favor" or "love less" (Genesis 29:30-31; Matthew 10:37 cf Luke 14:26)). There is no indication at all Esau will be lost.

YOu need to learn the meaning of how Jews use the word hate. Here it simply means Jacob is preferred!

 

[Pearl]

I often think that some people who may feel a compulsion to seek God see him as stern and judgmental and do not do so because they are ashamed of things they have done in their lives.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I often think that some people who may feel a compulsion to seek God see him as stern and judgmental and do not do so because they are ashamed of things they have done in their lives.

God uses many ways to deliver the gospel message. with some He scares the hell right out of them. As He had to with me!

 

[Pearl]

God uses many ways to deliver the gospel message. with some He scares the hell right out of them. As He had to with me!

What made you seek him?