Man naturally doesnt seek after the True God Rom 3:11
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?
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11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Some men do not seek after God but that does not mean they are unable to, they simply choose not to. Depends on how men set their hearts (1 Chronicles 22:19; Psalms 78:8) if they seek God or not.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
But you forget , these are the people who already had a relationship by covenant with God! Man is dead in their sins. Dead men cannot seek. Christians have their free will restored to them and can choose to seek or nto seek god. That is because they are born again and have had their spirit made alive again.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
The "natural man" is not a totally depraved person, but is able to understand God's word. Those Stephen preached to in Acts 7 were natural men but they certainly understood Stephen's sermon. They did not kill Stephen because they could not understand but because they DID understand and hated what he preached. As those in Acts 2 whom Peter preached to were natural men but understood, accepted obeying Peter's sermon.
Nothing in the context of 2 Corinthians 2:14 shows the natural man to be unable to understand.
"receiveth not" shows a personal choice on part of the natural man to not receive the things of God. The natural man understands it but does not like it, hates it therefore is UNWILLING to receive the things of God. Again in Acts 7, Stephens audience did not kill him because they did not understand what he preached, but killed because they DID understand what he preached and hated it so much they killed him. They chose to 'receiveth not' the word of God and by rejecting the word of God they separated themselves from the only way of knowing the things of God.
Since they 'received not' the word of God preached to them, they 1) separated themselves from the only way of knowing the things of God and since 2) worldly wisdom the natural man possesses cannot reveal the things of God, then the natural man's inability to know the things of God comes from his unwillingness to know it, not a result of a totally depraved nature.
...."recieveth not...for they are foolishness to him" For the natural man to deem the things of God as "foolishness" implies the natural man must first understand it to consider it to be foolish. Acts 17:32 men understood what Paul preached, some willingly believed it and other were unwilling to believe for they judge it foolishness. (1 Cor 1:23)
So any "INABILITY" on part of the natural man stems from his UNWILLINGNESS to believe/accept what he was taught, heard and learned.
John 7:17 points to the fact there must be a willingness on part of man to know the things of God. Therefore the natural man's inability is NOT due to being passively born with a totally depraved nature nor not having been unconditionally chosen by God before the world began but due to free will choice in choosing to have an unwillingness to know the things of God.
"neither can he know them" - God has revealed the things in His mind to man in His inspired written word. Paul points out that man cannot know the things of God apart from the revealed, inspired word (1 Cor 2:11). So if the natural man is unwilling to accept/believe the written word then he has separated himself from the only way of knowing the things of God. Again, worldly wisdom will not reveal the things of God. So those who reject God's revealed word have separated themselves from the only way of knowing the things of God so their ignorance is self-imposed in not willing to know it and not due to having been born totally depraved.
"because they are spiritually discerned" since the natural man has rejected the word of God, he cannot know the things of God for they must be spiritually discern, meaning one must search and study the scriptures to discern the things of God. (Acts 17:11)
John 6:44-45
How can men come to Christ if they never heard of Christ? They cannot. Hence God does His drawing through teaching (v45), when men have been TAUGHT, have HEARD and LEARNED then men can come to Christ. So man's "inability" to come to Christ is NOT due to a depraved nature or because they were not of some supposed elect God chose before the world began. They are not able to come to Christ due to ignorance of Christ, hence God draws men by teaching and learning them of Christ then men can then come to Christ. Acts 8 the eunuch was a lost natural man but did not know of Christ but he was willing, able to learn. The Spirit sent Phillip to preach "Jesus" to the eunuch (Acts of the Apostles 8:30-35) and then the eunuch came to Christ in baptism. God drawed (teaching of Jesus) men come to Christ (being baptized). No Calvinism involved.
So all that needs to be done is for God to draw men by his word and then men of their own will cometh to Christ.
God draws - men come.
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Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
As I have posted this before, being physically dead and spiritually dead are NOT the same things. While the physical dead can do nothing yet the spiritually dead sure can. Those lost, spiritually dead people of Acts 2 was willing, able to listen and understand Peter's message, be pricked in their hearts, understand their need and lost condition, ask why shall we do and obey what was commanded them...all while spiritually dead. Same with the eunuch Acts 8 and Cornelius Acts 10 spiritually dead people will and able to understand and do something about their lost state.
Lol, why do you think no man seeks after God if they could ? Read again Rom 3:11
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
No man understands God !
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
Why is this such a belaboured topic?
None of us chose to exist, but our existence happened anyway.
The existence of the Word of God leads to the existence of Faith in God. It happens.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
There were those who understood the word of God when it was preached to them as the eunuch, those in Acts 2 and Acts 7. David who Paul quoted was one who sought God. So Calvinism has a wrong interpretation of Romans 3 passage.
Paul in Romans 1 proves Gentiles are sinners and Romans 2 prove Jews are sinners. In Romans 3 Paul addresses specifically the Jews. Though they had their own law and it was an advantage to them, it could not justify them, hence they were sinners and no better than the Gentiles though they tho't they were. To prove to the Jews they were sinners Paul picks various verses from the OT. After citing those OT verses in verse 10-18 Paul then says to the Jews in v19 "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." Since it was just the Jews who were given the OT law and just the Jews under that law these verses are being specifically directed at the Jews, not everyone universally for everyone universally was not given nor under the OT law of Moses. Paul is essentially telling the Jews that their own law given to them says they are sinners, hence they are no better than the Gentiles so the Jew should close his mouth about the Gentiles.
It is some people's opinion that in citing those OT scriptures Paul is using a midrash. Paul took verses that were specific in the meaning and gave them a broader, more general application. For example, Paul cites Psalms 5:8-10. In this Psalms David is specifically speaking about his enemies not mankind universally. Paul takes what David says of his enemies and makes a broader, general application of those words towards the Jews.
Interesting read on Rom 3 and midrash:
Exegeting Romans 3:10-18
See all men by nature are spiritually dead to the True God, yet he can be alive to false gods and religion. Man naturally can choose a god, an idol from his own imagination, but he cannot choose, seek after, desire the True God Rom 3:11
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
The word seek means :
Man doesnt do any of these things as it regards the True and Living God
And its no coincidence its the same word that characterizes True Faith in the True God Heb 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Man naturally is at enmity against the True God in his mind , so he doesnt seek Him or desire Him Rom 8:7
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
The word seek means :
- to seek out, search for
- to seek out, i.e. investigate, scrutinise
- to seek out for one's self, beg, crave
- to demand back, require
Man doesnt do any of these things as it regards the True and Living God
And its no coincidence its the same word that characterizes True Faith in the True God Heb 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Man naturally is at enmity against the True God in his mind , so he doesnt seek Him or desire Him Rom 8:7
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
None by nature seeks God nor understands God Rom 3:11. Man by nature is dead to God the True God of scripture.
The passage is true, but is a generalization about recognizing a "creator", not about believing Christ.
The Bible agrees with itself always. Paul teaches that the natural man is at enmity with God. You can believe in God and hate Him. This is actually the natural condition of mankind. Paul and the prophets of the old testament taught that no one seeks God. If this isn't your experience, the reason is simply that you were responding to His calling. All "seekers" are hearing His call and were first sought out by Him. This is just a theological point which we arrive at by believing scripture and taught by Jesus.
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. John 6:37-38
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. John 6:44-47
There are many passages in both old and new testaments that teach this doctrine, but it isn't how we perceive His work ( we neither physically see or hear the Father, but respond to Him not realizing that He's calling us.)
I'll present just one very explicit verse from Isaiah:
For Jacob My servant’s sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me. Isaiah 45:4
We tend to believe our experience, but God wants us to believe His word, which is entirely true.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
The natural man is not as bad as they can be, but they are as bad off as they can be. They are spiritually dead! I think you misquoted 2 Cor. I think you wanted this:
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
the natural man may intellectually understand, which inn a spiritual sense would bew gnosis, but they cannot spiritually understand which is epignosis.
There is a difference between just understanding with you rhead, and knowing in the "heart". that can only come from God! Just like when Peter proclaimed Jesus th eson of god.
Matthew 16:15-17
King James Version
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
He receives them for to the flesh they are foolishness! the natural mind cannot understand spiritual things.
And the natural man cannot come to Jesus unless the Father draws them, John 6. and as Jesus said all who come to Him He will not cast out! so one canot come to Jesus unless drawn- and that word means pulled with force. and all that come are not cast out!
Romans 8:5-8
King James Version
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
the natural man is at war with God! It is not subjected to the law of God and even worse as Paul says- it cannot be! That is why one has to undergo the new birth!
Do not give man any credit for something that is all of God. Even our understanding and ability to say Yes to Jesus are gifts from God.
Faith is a gift that comes from God.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Yes one can be physically alive while spiritually dead.
And all those who were pricked in their hearts were drawn by God the Father.
Remember verse 47 of Acts 2:
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
It is God who adds people to the body of Christ and not our own decision!
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Why do you try to add exemptions to God's Word when God doesn't? There are NONE,0, NADA, ZIP, ZILCH, ZERO that seek after God!
No one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them as Jesus Himself said in JOhn 65 so no, the natural man is unable to come to Jesus until (not unless) God draws HIm! Turning ot Jesus goes against the fallen human nature as I showed you from Gods Word.
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
The Father draws through the Son, just by Him being who He is and by what He has done.
Joh 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God’s children, to those who believe in his name: (13) who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
1Ti 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, (4) who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (5) For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, (6) who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
How can anyone disregard these verses as meaning anything other than well, what they clearly say? A
also:
7 "But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: "
John 16:7,8
I just cannot accept a God who PURPOSELY creates some for eternal torture for some thing they have NO power over.
The Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin, righteousness and judgement.
There IS so many "choices" He gives us and SO many opportunities to repent because He DOES love the whole world.
God Bless brother.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well if you believe JOhn 12 is true as implied then you believe all men will be saved! but as Jesus also said, no one cam come to Him unless THE FATHER draw HIm. But given the fact that untold billions since Pentecost have been allured by Jesus and have had great respect even if they never got saved.
JOhn 1 says nothing on HOW people receive Jesus. It is simply a statement of fact-= whoever receives Jesus get saved!
1 Ti. 2 it is Gods desire, but not HIs will. I f god willed all to be saved, then all would be saved unless you believe mans will can trump Gods will.
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
I think the idea is that God's Grace and Benevolence is sufficient for everyone if everyone repents.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
Obviously not everyone does come to repentance, but if they did God is willing for them to be saved.
2Pe 2:9-10 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, (10) and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries,
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
They were those who sought the Lord:
2 Chronicles 14:7
2 Chronicles 15:4
2 Chronicles 26:3-5
Psalms 34:4
Ezra 4:2
Ezra 6:21
Zechariah 8:21
Romans 2:3-11 Paul gives a contrast between those who chose not to seek the Lord and those who do choose to seek the Lord. Those who choose not to seek God could have but instead made a free will choice of their own thereby making themselves culpable for not seeking God. God has never put any onus upon Himself to cause (regenerate) men to seek Him therefore God has no culpability for those who refuse to see Him. Paul was directing his comments in Romans 3:10-19 to the Jews, not everyone universally, to show the Jews they were sinners as the Gentiles and they could not attain justification/righteousness through the OT law of Moses. Though having that law was an advantage to the Jew, that OT law could not justify the Jew leaving them sinners as the Gentiles as Paul proves in verse 10-18. Paul then shows the Jew righteousness come by grace thru faith in Christ Romans 3:21-24.
Man cannot keep the law perfectly therefore unable to obtain righteousness through the law, but evidently Calvinism ASSUMES man is not able to seek, understand or have faith therefore unable to obtain righteousness thru faith. Because man cannot earn righteousness by keeping the law perfectly does not imply man is morally unable to seek God, unable to understand or unable to have faith. Again, because the Jew was unable to attain righteousness thru keeping the law does not imply in anyway that man is also unable to understand or seek God without God first having to act upon man.
So in Romans 3 Paul is speaking of the INABILITY OF THE LAW to justify the Jew and not the inability of man in understanding or seeking God for there were those who sought God (noted above) those who understood (the lost in Acts 2 and 7 understood what was preached to them). Man is not born totally depraved unable to understand, seek or have faith then God unjustly condemns man, holding man accountable for a depraved state man was passively born with.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
John 6:65
John 6:45 God draws men by His word when men have been TAUGHT HEARD and LEARN then men of their own free will come to Christ, not an irresistible, supernatural drawing done apart from the word, apart from man being taught, hearing and learning the word.
The unbelievers and betrayer of John 6:64 chose to reject God's word, that is, rejected God's drawing therefore it was not given them by the Father to be a disciple of Christ. But those who accept the word are given to Christ and will be raised up in the last day.
"John himself taught that those who "believe on his name" through hearing God's word, are given the "power to become children of God" (John 1:12 (NAS)
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
" (John 1:12). The theory which stipulates that one who has heard God's word, consequently believing on Jesus Christ, does not thereby have the right to become a child of God until some mysterious further action on the part of God himself in "drawing" the sinner is repugnant; because, in the final analysis, it makes God and not the sinner responsible for whether or not he accepts the Lord. God has already given his word to men, to the whole creation; and therein is also the power for all who choose to do so to become God's children." Coffman Comm (my emp)
Jer 29:12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.
Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
Jer 29:14 And I will be found of you, saith the LORD
Pro 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
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