Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

[brightfame52]

No man naturally can believe on Christ nor even believe in the True God, for what saith the scripture Lk 10:21-22

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Now to call upon the name of Jesus for Salvation as per Rom 10, the person must know who the Son is to believe Him Rom 10:14

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

There can be no true calling upon Christ without Faith and the knowledge of who He is and what He accomplished and for whom. Yet Jesus reveals that naturally "no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father"

So who Christ is in His True Glorious Person must be revealed to a man as it was to Peter here Matt 16:16-17

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

See Peter was Blessed, he didnt know who Jesus Christ really was by natural man ability but by Divine revelation.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Romans 1:20 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts.…

 

[Nancy]

Romans 1:20 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts.…

Was just about to quote that exact scripture verse.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

No man naturally can believe on Christ nor even believe in the True God, for what saith the scripture Lk 10:21-22

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Now to call upon the name of Jesus for Salvation as per Rom 10, the person must know who the Son is to believe Him Rom 10:14

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

There can be no true calling upon Christ without Faith and the knowledge of who He is and what He accomplished and for whom. Yet Jesus reveals that naturally "no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father"

So who Christ is in His True Glorious Person must be revealed to a man as it was to Peter here Matt 16:16-17

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

See Peter was Blessed, he didnt know who Jesus Christ really was by natural man ability but by Divine revelation.

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If any man hear My voice and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with Me." Rev. 3:20
"Seek and you will find ..."
He enables us to come. It is interesting though, the message goes out to all _ whosoever ...but only the chosen, His sheep, hear His voice/call and come.
Then in Romans 1 we see that all man have been given an awareness of God - so are without excuse.
If man was not given any awareness, visible or invisible attributes of God in creation and life, then man would have that as an excuse, wouldn't he?

 

[atpollard]

Was just about to quote that exact scripture verse.

Can you really KNOW GOD (as Lord and Savior) from just the evidence of nature?
Was His revealed Word really unnecessary?
Is the work of the Holy Spirit on an unsaved heart also unnecessary?

Romans 1:20-21 (and what follows) is powerful, because it condemns men for not acknowledging that GOD IS and, therefore, seeking Him. Like the Law, it brings DEATH rather than LIFE. That is why by Romans 3, we are all under sin and "THERE IS NO RIGHTEOUS PERSON, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NO ONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NO ONE WHO SEEKS OUT GOD" [Romans 3:10-11].

This is the door to salvation: "If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. One believes with the heart, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in salvation." Romans 10:9-10

What may be known of God "from His workmanship" [Romans 1:20] will not get you to the salvation of Romans 10:9-10.

Romans 10:14-15

How, then, can they call on him they have not believed in? And how can they believe without hearing about him? And how can they hear without a preacher? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news.​

 

[atpollard]

[Acts 2:37 CSB] 37 When they heard this, they were pierced to the heart and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles: "Brothers, what should we do?"

• Who is it that 'pierces' human hearts?

Want a hint?

• [Acts 16:14 CSB] 14 A God-fearing woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, was listening. The Lord opened her heart to respond to what Paul was saying.
• [Romans 2:29 CSB] 29 On the contrary, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart -- by the Spirit, not the letter. That person's praise is not from people but from God.
• [2 Corinthians 8:16 CSB] 16 Thanks be to God, who put the same concern for you into the heart of Titus.
• [Hebrews 4:12 CSB] 12 For the word of God is living and effective and sharper than any double-edged sword, penetrating as far as the separation of soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Just sayin' ...

 

[Nancy]

[Acts 2:37 CSB] 37 When they heard this, they were pierced to the heart and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles: "Brothers, what should we do?"

• Who is it that 'pierces' human hearts?

Want a hint?

• [Acts 16:14 CSB] 14 A God-fearing woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, was listening. The Lord opened her heart to respond to what Paul was saying.
• [Romans 2:29 CSB] 29 On the contrary, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart -- by the Spirit, not the letter. That person's praise is not from people but from God.
• [2 Corinthians 8:16 CSB] 16 Thanks be to God, who put the same concern for you into the heart of Titus.
• [Hebrews 4:12 CSB] 12 For the word of God is living and effective and sharper than any double-edged sword, penetrating as far as the separation of soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Just sayin' ...

We'll all find out eventually, won't we. You, me and just about anyone can make the word of God into what they want so as to fit their doctrine. So, if one lives by this T.U.l.I.P. doctrine...how does one KNOW God chose them? How can you even evangelize as, it won't matter if one has been "chosen" from the foundations of the world because they will be saved no matter "how they run" : "Romans 9:16, KJV: "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

Are not God's mercies new every day? There is NEVER an invitation to approach the alter to give their selves to Christ in front of witnesses for new folks in the church. The pastor, and Elders will never say to someone "God Loves You"! I know, as I spent 3 years in a Reformed Baptist church and watched, listened, never missed a day, or a Sunday School before services. I saw how sneaky they were as, they SLOWLY and still after 6 years dragging their feet getting their congregation to believe things they have no idea about...the HUGE majority of this church has zero idea that their pastor is a solid 5 pointer. So, if they believe this doctrine SO MUCH...why do they try to keep it pretty much quiet for so long? The pastor even said to me one time, "I can guarantee you that more than half if this congregation is not saved". HOW in the world does he know that??

Well, you believe what you want but, I will continue to tell all and any who will hear that our God loves EVERYBODY, and that they too can come to Jesus as He casts nobody away who reaches to Him.

On here, there have been one or two who say (after attending a reformed church)
change their status from Christian to Agnostic as they do not believe God loves them and wasn't chosen. That is horrible IMO. What if you are wrong?? Will whoever teaches this and it turns out to be wrong, be punished for pushing so many away from Him?? It pushed me away in the 1990's, but God never left me alone...it was utterly horrible thinking that the only one who can TRULY love, did not love me.

Can't go on about this anymore, so very tired of all these posts, they go no where.
Happy New Year.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No man naturally can believe on Christ nor even believe in the True God, for what saith the scripture Lk 10:21-22

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Now to call upon the name of Jesus for Salvation as per Rom 10, the person must know who the Son is to believe Him Rom 10:14

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

There can be no true calling upon Christ without Faith and the knowledge of who He is and what He accomplished and for whom. Yet Jesus reveals that naturally "no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father"

So who Christ is in His True Glorious Person must be revealed to a man as it was to Peter here Matt 16:16-17

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

See Peter was Blessed, he didnt know who Jesus Christ really was by natural man ability but by Divine revelation.

The natural man cannot receive the things of God, so no, no unsaved person will seek Christ unless compelled by God the Father as Jesus said in John.

 

[atpollard]

You, me and just about anyone can make the word of God into what they want so as to fit their doctrine.

Strange how the "Calvinists" are always presenting the actual Scripture and being accused of twisting it, while so many that ... well HATE ... Calvinism just offer long speeches about what Calvinists are supposed to teach devoid of any scripture to support the view that fallen, sinful, natural "man" chooses to believe independent of any supernatural work of God because we have "Free Will, Free Will, Free Will".

I would prefer to see y'all support what you believe with what Scripture teaches.
I know y'all believe that it is in there (the Bible).

 

[atpollard]

So, if one lives by this T.U.l.I.P. doctrine...how does one KNOW God chose them?

Same way an Arminian knows that they are saved.
How do YOU know that God forgave your sins?
How do YOU know that you have been sealed with the Holy Spirit as a deposit to guarantee your inheritance?
How do YOU know that you are a child of God?

The difference between a Calvinist and an Arminian is that an Arminian believes that they repented and then God chose them and a Calvinist believes that God chose them and then they repented. That is really not as great a difference as PEOPLE seem to make of it. Like baseball, you still touch all of the bases before reaching Home in either system. They just argue about the order of the bases.

There are some LOGICAL arguments that spring from the debate. If someone believes that THEY are holding on to God, then they need to worry about whether or not THEY let go. If someone believes that GOD is holding on to them, then they need to worry about whether or not GOD lets go. Whatever YOU or I THINK does not change the REALITY about who is holding on to whom.

 

[atpollard]

How can you even evangelize as, it won't matter if one has been "chosen" from the foundations of the world because they will be saved no matter "how they run"

Or ... God is in charge of what sort of SOIL the seed lands in and MY JOB is just to broadcast the SEED and trust GOD to make it grow where God wants it to grow. My EVANGELISM cannot fail because it does not dependent on my clever speech to win over "free will" minds, it depends on God to transform hearts and draw those He foreknew to Himself.

I am just a guy telling what I know to whomever will listen, because: How, then, can they call on him they have not believed in? And how can they believe without hearing about him? And how can they hear without a preacher? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news. [Romans 10:14-15]

... but GOD does the saving, not me and not the person listening [Romans 9:16 "So then, it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy."]

That's how we can evangelize.

 

[brightfame52]

When I say men naturally i mean the unregenerate man, in the flesh, never born again ? Can this person seek after the True and Living God ? The answer is NO !

Scripture makes that clear, that man naturally doesnt seek after God Rom 3:9-12

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

The word seekth here is related to and joined with Faith here Heb 11:1,6

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Now the word seek here and the one in Rom 3:11 are the same greek word ekzeteo which means:

I seek out, seek out after, require.

to seek the favor of God, worship him

And believing Faith seeks after the True God. But because of our depravity by nature, we dont seek after God, nor have the ability to !

 

[Nancy]

The natural man cannot receive the things of God, so no, no unsaved person will seek Christ unless compelled by God the Father as Jesus said in John.

Yes Ronald, agree, and Happy N.Y. to you and yours!

The first verse that came to mind when I just now read your reply here was:

John 16:8
"And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:"

Is this NOT being "compelled by Christ" ? Through the Holy Spirit?
Doesn't the "world" mentioned here mean all people?
In essence, God DOES invite "all people" to His Son yet, we know and He knew that most would love their sin more. I think most of us have been there! (living in sin and thinking nothing "wrong" with it) ... UNTIL... The Holy Spirit CONVICTS US OF SIN RIGHTEOUSNESS and JUDGEMENT? Men's doctrines can make or break the confidence we have in Him...especially the assurance of our salvation.
As far as being "compelled"
One can harden their hearts to the point of no return ("their consciences were seared...") One can come running and sprout deep and high! One can be interested for a minute then the cares of this world crowd..." And some come in kicking and screaming~! that would be me, and others I personally know.
The "I" in the acronym T.U.L.I.P. - Irresistible grace would be shoving someone, forcefully really, into loving God. Just cannot see that in so many verses but, I am not certain of MANY things biblical.

God bless bro, and Happy N.Y.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes Ronald, agree, and Happy N.Y. to you and yours!

The first verse that came to mind when I just now read your reply here was:

John 16:8
"And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:"

Is this NOT being "compelled by Christ" ? Through the Holy Spirit?
Doesn't the "world" mentioned here mean all people?
In essence, God DOES invite "all people" to His Son yet, we know and He knew that most would love their sin more. I think most of us have been there! (living in sin and thinking nothing "wrong" with it) ... UNTIL... The Holy Spirit CONVICTS US OF SIN RIGHTEOUSNESS and JUDGEMENT? Men's doctrines can make or break the confidence we have in Him...especially the assurance of our salvation.
As far as being "compelled"
One can harden their hearts to the point of no return ("their consciences were seared...") One can come running and sprout deep and high! One can be interested for a minute then the cares of this world crowd..." And some come in kicking and screaming~! that would be me, and others I personally know.
The "I" in the acronym T.U.L.I.P. - Irresistible grace would be shoving someone, forcefully really, into loving God. Just cannot see that in so many verses but, I am not certain of MANY things biblical.

God bless bro, and Happy N.Y.

And HNY to you and yours as well!

Yes the invitation is broadcast to all! But as Paul said, to some that invitation is a savor of death and to others it is a savor of life. It is the ones that are drawn to Jesus by God the Father that this is a savor to life.

This is hard for the ego to accept that we did nothing to decide to save ourselves. Even the ability to say yes to Jesus is a gift from God.

 

[Nancy]

Yes bro, thank you, and agreed. We can do not a thing without or apart from Him.
I was not sure where you were coming from for a minute, I did not think you believed that Christ only died for a select few...which actually, is what it will turn out to be when all is said and done.
In Him always!

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Men have been commanded to seek God (Isaiah 55:6) men have ability and accountability to seek God (Acts of the Apostles 17:27) and men did seek God (Psalms 34:4). If man does not have the ability to seek God then the commands are meaningless and the accountability unjust.

 

[friend of]

and men did seek God (Psalms 34:4)

This is talking about David, who was already in relationship with God. It is not about seeking God initially. It's about seeking God after a period of rebellion.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

This is talking about David, who was already in relationship with God. It is not about seeking God initially. It's about seeking God after a period of rebellion.

No one could ever find God if they did not have an initial, beginning point. All men across the earth are to seek God Acts 17:27. The mistake some make is wrongly assuming man is too depraved and unable to seek God unless God first acts upon a person "regenerating" that person. The eunuch of Acts 8 was lost, spiritually dead but sought God as seen by his reading OT scripture.
The Calvinist supposed proof text Romans 3:11 says no one seeks God. It does not say "no unregenerate seeks God".

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Men have been commanded to seek God (Isaiah 55:6) men have ability and accountability to seek God (Acts of the Apostles 17:27) and men did seek God (Psalms 34:4). If man does not have the ability to seek God then the commands are meaningless and the accountability unjust.

Then these verses are meaningless and God is a liar!

1Cor. 1:

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Romans 8:7-8
King James Version

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Seeking God is something that pleases God, and those in the flesh cannot do this!

Acts 17:27
King James Version

27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

This is a conditional. Men should seek God- but the natural man will not!

 

[brightfame52]

Man by nature cannot and does not have the ability to choose the True and Living God. God must be revealed to him, Christs very words declare this Matt 11:27

27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Its Christs mission to give some, not all a True Spiritual knowledge of God Jn 17:2-3

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

No man by nature can or does know, choose, desire, or want, seeks the True God Rom 3:10-12

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.