Church Bashing

[Lambano]

Well…yes, it’s good that your murder not proceed to the outside. It’s for the social good so we are socialized to not do it and to “get them” in sneakier, more socially acceptable ways, and it’s also for my own good too if I don’t want to be locked in prison. But I was most likely never going to strangle, bludgeon or shoot my mother even BEFORE I met God. The majority of the population goes through life never physically murdering anyone. But my righteousness must exceed that righteousness. The problem is on the inside of the cup. Yes, there is a value-add to society that I don’t homicide someone or sleep with their spouse, but I shouldn’t think that means I’ve kept those laws just because no man saw me do it in my mind and heart.

I guess I stopped worrying about my actual righteousness when I believed I was justified (declared righteous) based on being in Christ and having His righteousness. Though I do want to render unto God, spouse, family, friends, employer, neighbor, Caesar et. al. what they are due, I just ... don't worry about it. (Though I regret it when I fail, and somebody gets hurt.)

Like I said, maybe I'm more like my friend than I want to admit in not hating my sin enough. Or maybe that means I actually do trust.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

More like, "Y'know, 5 years ago, I might've murdered my mother for that. But I didn't. What changed? When did it change?"

Versus, "Today, I feel my passions, my anger, my selfishness, my pride is completely gone. I can empathize with the lady with the horn yesterday because she is trapped, just like I was. The "me" that I am today is not the "me" that I was yesterday. What happened?"

If this is true, if you never get even that brief flare of anger and resentment that is murder, if you never have pride rise up when someone is rude and awful and abusive to you, if that is gone and replaced only by pity and compassion, then you have died. At least as far as you can tell, you went somewhere and are no longer here.

 

[Lambano]

If this is true, if you never get even that brief flare of anger and resentment that is murder, if you never have pride rise up when someone is rude and awful and abusive to you, if that is gone and replaced only by pity and compassion, then you have died.

Right. The question was, did you die overnight, or did you notice you were dead over a period of time?

 

[Lambano]

As you can tell, I find it very difficult to relate to your experience.

And that insecure child within me never really went away.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Right. Did you die overnight, or did you notice you were dead over a period of time.

It was overnight. It was back in…April. I remember thinking, finally seeing, (with some horror) that I was exactly the same as everyone else. I was exactly like everyone I always got so angry at. I was in the same exact boat as they were. I got mad at their selfishness and pettinesses but could suddenly see I was the same and was expecting them to be better when even I couldn’t be better. I was not even any better than an unbeliever. I remember saying, Lord, I have no more love than even an unbeliever. I can never help myself or anyone else when I can only love as the rest of the world loves. I lack love and I will always lack love if you don’t give it to me. The next day, I no longer was controlled by my passions. They were put under and all that was there when I was treated badly or meanly or with pettiness, was pity and compassion because they could not help what they did and were stuck in it.
Unless someone can show me something other than that I died, I think I died. I can’t even seem to muster up any particular desire or my very own will. I just sit here waiting and I’m not sure what I’m waiting for.

 

[Lambano]

It was overnight. It was back in…April. I remember thinking, finally seeing, (with some horror) that I was exactly the same as everyone else. I was exactly like everyone I always got so angry at. I was in the same exact boat as they were. I got mad at their selfishness and pettinesses but could suddenly see I was the same and was expecting them to be better when even I couldn’t be better. I was not even any better than an unbeliever. I remember saying, Lord, I have no more love than even an unbeliever. I can never help myself or anyone else when I can only love as the rest of the world loves. I lack love and I will always lack love if you don’t give it to me. The next day, I no longer was controlled by my passions. They were put under and all that was there when I was treated badly or meanly or with pettiness, was pity and compassion because they could not help what they did and were stuck in it.

I can still praise God for what He's done with you, can't I? :)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I sure do! All those years of struggling and then instant death…

 

[Lambano]

I just sit here waiting and I’m not sure what I’m waiting for.

I can't help you there, though I wish I could. I'm still waiting to find out why I'm someplace I shouldn't be. Your "trust" advice applies to me, I think.

You're one of the healthiest (and unique) souls I've met here, and you'll be okay, but I may say a prayer for you anyway. I'll ask Him to show you what you're waiting for. And thank Him.

 

[Lambano]

I sure do! All those years of struggling and then instant death…

Or New Creation.

17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, she is a new creation; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. (2 Corinthians 5:17)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I guess I stopped worrying about my actual righteousness when I believed I was justified (declared righteous) based on being in Christ and having His righteousness.

Im not sure where men get that idea. I read that God declares men righteous if they believe and trust Him. But then I also read, make no mistake, a righteous man DOES what is right. So eventually, God ACTUALLY makes a man truly righteous and law abiding in his heart and mind.

 

[Lambano]

Im not sure where men get that idea. I read that God declares men righteous if they believe and trust Him. But then I also read, make no mistake, a righteous man DOES what is right. So eventually, God ACTUALLY makes a man truly righteous and law abiding in his heart and mind.

And I trust He will do so, so don't need to worry about it. I know it takes time. That patience thing again.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Or New Creation.

17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, she is a new creation; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. (2 Corinthians 5:17)

A seed must fall into the ground and die first.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And I trust He will do so, so don't need to worry about it.

That’s very, very good.

 

[Lambano]

That’s very, very good.

I thought so too (told you I was a smart-ass!), which is why I wondered why you were worried about it.

 

[Lambano]

A seed must fall into the ground and die first.

All that discussion with MarkS and you want to talk about death some more? (Woody Allen: "I'm not scared of death; I just don't want to be around when it happens") I prefer to talk about New Creation.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I thought so too (told you I was a smart-ass!), which is why I wondered why you were worried about it.

What was I worried about?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

All that discussion with MarkS and you want to talk about death some more? (Woody Allen: "I'm not scared of death; I just don't want to be around when it happens") I prefer to talk about New Creation.

Well, I wasn’t the one who said, if anyone wants to be My disciple he must pick up his cross and follow Me. So that comes first. The seed has to fall into the ground and die before it can spring up into new life.

 

[Lambano]

What was I worried about?

That you had to be more righteous than the Pharisees when you were already accounted righteous. Maybe I misread (isn't the first time; short odds it won't be the last), but there's a difference in attitude in thinking you have to be more righteous than the Pharisees and wanting to be more righteous than the Pharisees and trusting God to get you there. And you may have been right when you said I'm not impatient enough, I don't want it enough. Might be one of my blind spots. I have many.

 

[Lambano]

Well, I wasn’t the one who said, if anyone wants to be My disciple he must pick up his cross and follow Me. So that comes first. The seed has to fall into the ground and die before it can spring up into new life.

Only part of you died. I don't like all this death talk; I want to talk about new life. (Which I think I can see.)

8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him (Romans 6:8)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

That you had to be more righteous than the Pharisees when you were already accounted righteous.

I think you missed my entire days long point. But you didn’t ACTUALLY miss it.
My point was that your righteousness DOES have to exceed, but that the only way TO that is to continue in trust and grow in trust, because we can’t do it, but God can.