What is Predetermined?

[robert derrick]

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.

Were we not all vessels of wrath at one time? Any want to say they were never vessels of wrath after the womb by their sins and trespasses?

We all were vessels of wrath by sins of the flesh, but not all remain vessels of wrath by faith unto mercy:

Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Calvin's carnal minded teaching of predetermined choosing to save some and not others, is because He knew nothing of the Spirit of grace that wrote all Scripture:

We are all equally created souls lightened by Christ in the lower parts of the earth, and then covered in sinful flesh due to the corrupted seed of Adam.

The vessels are the bodies housing the souls, and since we have all sinned in those sinful bodies, then we all became by sinful nature the vessels of wrath.

God endured our wrath-deserving souls fitted for destruction, that he might save some by faith, and have mercy upon them by afore prepared salvation of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world: the vessels of wrath by sin became the vessels of mercy by faith:

The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty.

Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

God longsuffering endures the vessels of wrath that sinned, that He might forgive their sins and trespasses by faith in the blood of the Lamb, and yet take vengeance on them that do not repent and believe His gospel.

No soul was prepurposed to be made a vessel of wrath and another of mercy, but rather by Adam's transgression, we all have fallen short of the glory of God to become vessels of wrath worthy of destruction, but not all go on still in their sins and trespasses to be destroyed body and soul in hell.

 

[robert derrick]

"What is predetermined?"

Everything. God is sovereign.

Proverbs 16:4 Jehovah hath made everything for its own end; Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Verse 33: The lot is cast into the lap;But the whole disposing thereof is of Jehovah.

Acts 4:26-28 ASV
The kings of the earth set themselves in array,
And the rulers were gathered together,
Against the Lord, and against his Anointed:

27 for of a truth in this city against thy holy Servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together, 28 to do whatsoever thy hand and thy council foreordained to come to pass.

Good points, however, you are still equating foreknowing who, with predetermining who, which I don't see Scripture doing:

The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

This confirms all souls were made for Himself, even them that chose wickedness thereafter.

Christ lightens every man that comes into the world with the same lightening as any other: no different 'lightenings' of Christ from one to another.

Then whosoever comes to Him freely is saved by faith. He foreknew them all, whether to good or even, by seeing it all come to pass in their day of good or evil, and thus foreknowing them all in the beginning: not foredetermining one to evil and the other to good.

He foreknows who, without foredetermining who.

For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

And so, once again: predetermined whatsoever not whosever. The Lamb Himself counselled with God in the beginning and determined to be slain for sins, not who personally would do so to Him, other than knowing it would be His own that received Him not.

Whoever was known by God beforehand, by the Word watching all from on high even as it came to pass on earth.

Knowing who beforehand by watching from above, is not predetermining forehand who would do whatsoever was determined from the beginning.

Equating foreknowing who by foredetermining who is the error of Calvin. What was foredetermined from the beginning, who was foreknown in the beginning, by watching from high above the heavens all things from beginning to ending.

Foreknowing is not by foredetermining, but by seeing it all come to pass and knowing beforehand, because the Word seeing all was with God in the beginning.

God by counsel of wisdom foredetermined what, and then foreknew by seeing who would do what.

The only One foreknown and foredetermined from the foundation of the world was the Word, being anointed Christ and ordained to be the Lamb of God.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Here we go…. More anti calvinism nonsense. I have no idea why you insist on showing your ignorance of scripture. But you do seem to be like the pigs who return to the mud.

You're not a calvinist by choice? Does that mean you were predestined to believe Calvin over the Word of God?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

So no one lives holily and justly and unblameably in this present world? To be righteous as He is righteous?

No one is be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless at His appearing?

Everyone is wretchedly double minded in the faith?

Just what are these 'bad' ungodly and unrighteous sinful deeds that you do and speak of?

Paul did and so can we if we've received the divine nature of Christ, being born again. This is certainly the church age of Laodecia with all those who don't believe they need anything more from God - like His righteousness.

1 Thes. 2:9 For you remember, brethren, our labor and toil; for laboring night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you, we preached to you the gospel of God.

10 You are witnesses, and God also, how devoutly and justly and blamelessly we behaved ourselves among you who believe; 11 as you know how we exhorted, and comforted, and charged every one of you, as a father does his own children,

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

You're not a calvinist by choice? Does that mean you were predestined to believe Calvin over the Word of God?

1. calvin merely stated what Jesus and the apostles said, he didnt make, add, or create a new doctrine.
2. Im a calvinist because God predestined me to be a calvinist.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

1. calvin merely stated what Jesus and the apostles said, he didnt make, add, or create a new doctrine.
2. Im a calvinist because God predestined me to be a calvinist.

Let's see. Did Calvin teach we are born again to be sinless? Did Jesus take away our sin, or merely cover it up?

 

[robert derrick]

God predetermines that certain individuals will be saved.

True. Them that believe and obey Him from the heart.

Why would God choose certain individuals and not others?

Because not all them believe Him, and not al them that believe Him also obey Him.

God’s choosing to be gracious to some is not unfair to the others.

True, because they chose not to believe Him.

Somehow, in the mystery of God, predestination works hand-in-hand with a person being drawn by God.

True, it's called being drawn of God, which God predestined to be the way to God, by God's foolishness of preaching, not by Calvin's foolishness of choosing who would and would not come to God beforehand.

God predestines who will be saved.

God does not foreknow who by forechoosing who. Calvin's error is jumping the shark from foreknowing who and repedeteerming how to foreknowing who by predetermining who.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Let's see. Did Calvin teach we are born again to be sinless? Did Jesus take away our sin, or merely cover it up?

oh great, here we go with the sinless thing.
You arent sinless, you literally sin every single day. You are forgiven, not sinless. Jesus paid the fines for your sins.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

God predetermines that certain individuals will be saved.

God predestines who will be saved.

God does not foreknow who by forechoosing who. Calvin's error is jumping the shark from foreknowing who and repedeteerming how to foreknowing who by predetermining who.

God chose who would be saved before the creation of the universe. Everyone who will be saved already has their names written in the Book of Life. God chose. You keep denying His omnipotence.

 

[robert derrick]

God predestines who will be saved, and we must choose Christ in order to be saved.

And here is the grand self-contradiction of Calvin's error:

It's all about God's Sovereign and perfect will to choose and to know beforehand who will be saved and who will not.

And yet, he also declares that them predestined must choose to believe, in order to receive the predestinated salvation.

But if one who was predestined does not believe, then God's Sovereign will and omnipotence becomes impotent in the face of one prechosen, yet not believing and so not saved.

Predestined who to be saved, yet is not saved in the end.

Foreknowing is who, predestining is what and how to be saved for whosoever comes to Him by faith of Jesus.

And God calls all men to repentance and believing, not just some predestined by Him to do so, especially when we see such omnipotence is made impotent by them chose beforehand yet refused faith after hand.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

oh great, here we go with the sinless thing.
You arent sinless, you literally sin every single day. You are forgiven, not sinless. Jesus paid the fines for your sins.

You shouldn't scoff at the truth. So is sinning everyday what Calvin taught you? Didn't Calvin also teach you that you will always have your old nature as long as you are in this body?

What about Romans 6:6-7? 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

God predestines who will be saved, and we must choose Christ in order to be saved.

And here is the grand self-contradiction of Calvin's error:

It's all about God's Sovereign and perfect will to choose and to know beforehand who will be saved and who will not.

And yet, he also declares that them predestined must choose to believe, in order to receive the predestinated salvation.

But if one who was predestined does not believe, then God's Sovereign will and omnipotence becomes impotent in the face of one prechosen, yet not believing and so not saved.

Predestined who to be saved, yet is not saved in the end.

Foreknowing is who, predestining is what and how to be saved for whosoever comes to Him by faith of Jesus.

And God calls all men to repentance and believing, not just some predestined by Him to do so, especially when we see such omnipotence is made impotent by them chose beforehand yet refused faith after hand.

LoL. See, i knew you didnt understand. God isnt forcing anyone to believe. He’s not dragging people into Heaven who dont want to go. He knows who will believe, and those become His elect.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

LoL. See, i knew you didnt understand. God isnt forcing anyone to believe. He’s not dragging people into Heaven who dont want to go. He knows who will believe, and those become His elect.

Those who actually believe cannot sin. 1 John 3:9; 1 John 5:18

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

You shouldn't scoff at the truth. So is sinning everyday what Calvin taught you? Didn't Calvin also teach you that you will always have your old nature?

What about Romans 6:6-7? 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

no, john and paul both taught that we sin daily.
Jesus’ death is the atonement for our sins, but that doesnt mean we wont still sin everyday. Mankind is a fallen creation, Jesus’ death means we’ll live forever in Heaven, but it was never intended to mean we’ll never face consequences in the here and now.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

no, john and paul both taught that we sin daily.
Jesus’ death is the atonement for our sins, but that doesnt mean we wont still sin everyday. Mankind is a fallen creation, Jesus’ death means we’ll live forever in Heaven, but it was never intended to mean we’ll never face consequences in the here and now.

If you are talking about 1 John 1:8 that is mankind BEFORE verse 9. I'm afraid you have believed what Calvin taught about John and Paul's words. Even if you think rationally without the guidance of the Spirit you can tell how silly his teachings are.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Those who actually believe cannot sin. 1 John 3:9; 1 John 5:18

as usual, you “non-sinners” dont understand what john meant. Heres some help.
What does it mean that believers do not continue to sin (1 John 3:6; 5:18)? | GotQuestions.org

 

[1stCenturyLady]

as usual, you “non-sinners” dont understand what john meant. Heres some help.
What does it mean that believers do not continue to sin (1 John 3:6; 5:18)? | GotQuestions.org

I don't need Calvinist doctrines. By the way, is 1 John 1:6 also a Christian because it also says "we"? I see you need others to think for you.

The word "practice" was added, not in the original. How many times do you have to commit murder before you are a murderer?

Believe Jesus! John 8:32-36

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

I don't need Calvinist doctrines. By the way, is 1 John 1:6 also a Christian because it also says "we"? I see you need others to think for you.

The word "practice" was added, not in the original. How many times do you have to commit murder before you are a murderer?

Believe Jesus! John 8:32-36

you’re missing the point, calvin’s words were the same words that the apostles used. Calvin didnt create a doctrine, he simply restored what had been lost since the days of the apostles. We see this even in paul’s writings where churches that he had established would go on to change the gospel. If the church could change the gospel in such a short time, imagine what 1400 yrs could have brought about.

 

[robert derrick]

If you are talking about 1 John 1:8 that is mankind BEFORE verse 9. I'm afraid you have believed what Calvin taught about John and Paul's words. Even if you think rationally without the guidance of the Spirit you can tell how silly his teachings are.

I am still amazed from time to time to see what you are talking about continue to happen. Anytime a Christian brings up Scripture about doing the righteousness of God, OSAS is always quick to fill in the gap and say no. We must sin daily.

Their doctrine has driven them to refuse righteousness and cleave to their sins, because they have invested all their heart, mind, and soul on unconditional salvation of Calvin, not eternal salvation of Jesus Christ.

Calvin is their idol.

 

[robert derrick]

I don't need Calvinist doctrines. By the way, is 1 John 1:6 also a Christian because it also says "we"? I see you need others to think for you.

The word "practice" was added, not in the original. How many times do you have to commit murder before you are a murderer?

Believe Jesus! John 8:32-36

Did that lifelong sinner call you a "non-sinner"?? OMG!! You should be ashamed of yourself!! How can you live with yourself??!! You, you "NON-SINNER!"

See what I mean? Just incredible. Truly amazing. I really keep thinking I've heard it all from them, and they just keep the good ones coming.

Truly, it's like John admiring the great whore with great admiration. Just mind-blowing how unashamedly clueless some people can be.

And don't think you're going to talk them into correction. Sorry, Not going to happen.

But, keep trying, and see what come next.