Who are the Promised Ones who shall possess the Land of God, forever?

[APAK]

(Rom 4:13) God promised Abraham and his descendants that they would have an heir who would reign over the world. This royal promise was not fulfilled because Abraham kept all the law, but through the righteousness that was transferred by faith. (TPT)

The ‘world’ here does not mean a nation of a specific land or even the promised land. It means to all nations of all lands of the earth.

There was a land promise given by God through Moses to Joshua!

 

[APAK]

(Jos 11:15) As the LORD commanded Moses his servant, so did Moses command Joshua, and so did Joshua; he left nothing undone of all that the LORD commanded Moses.(KJV)

(Jos 11:23) So Joshua took the whole land, according to all that the LORD said unto Moses; and Joshua gave it for an inheritance unto Israel according to their divisions by their tribes. And the land rested from war.(KJV)

This promised land agreement for the nation of Israel was fulfilled under Joshua.

Now there was an Abrahamic promise of a promised land given to a nation of Israel and was fulfilled in the OT, under David and Solomon.

 

[APAK]

(2Sa 8:3) David smote also Hadadezer, the son of Rehob, king of Zobah, as he went to recover his border at the river Euphrates.(KJV)

(1Ki 4:21) And Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the river unto the land of the Philistines, and unto the border of Egypt: they brought presents, and served Solomon all the days of his life.(KJV)

(Neh 9:7) Thou art the LORD the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham;(KJV)

(Neh 9:8) And foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girgashites, to give it, I say, to his seed, and hast performed thy words; for thou art righteous: (KJV)

(Neh 9:23) Their children also multipliedst thou as the stars of heaven, and broughtest them into the land, concerning which thou hadst promised to their fathers, that they should go in to possess it. (KJV)

(Neh 9:24) So the children went in and possessed the land, and thou subduedst before them the inhabitants of the land, the Canaanites, and gavest them into their hands, with their kings, and the people of the land, that they might do with them as they would.(KJV)

This promised specific land agreement for the nation of Israel to Abraham was fulfilled under David and Solomon.

The ‘world’ promise is fulfilled in Christ of the New Covenant.

 

[APAK]

To Abraham:

(Gen 17:8) And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. (KJV)

Now Futurist Dispensationalists think that the land deals were never fulfilled n the OT and they just conveniently ignore scripture that say they were fulfilled. And then they find Gen 17:8 and highlight the expression, ‘for an everlasting possession’ and say this land possession by the nation of Israel must be in the future and because its theirs as a nation forever.

They ignore in Gen 17:8 the fact that the land of Canaan cannot be the earthly Palestine! The new heavens and earth will supplant both the earthly natural Canaan and Palestine. And they add the future literal 1000 years into the mix. Now a literal 1000 years is not forever is it!

So who are to possess this chunk of physical land FOREVER? Are these people alive today? Why would God promise an earthly piece of land to a people, forever? For what purpose, to what end if you go back to Genesis and relook the purpose of restoration? Can any Futurist or Dispensationalist explain it? Are they sure it only means physical areas or physical space on a temporary basis as part of the natural order of things to be experienced? And then in Deuteronomy as previously pointed out they lost the land because of unbelief.

And who are Abraham’s true descendants -who are his true seeds? National Israel, or righteous faith-believing Israel as Abraham was faithful and possessed righteousness.

Abraham’s seed or descendants must be defined first in order to know who are to possess the land of ‘Canaan’ forever. This land of Canaan is ultimately in the spiritual realm!

The only everlasting habitation as a possession of Abraham’s seed is in the new heavens and the new earth with only those who are saved in Christ Yahshua – remnant Israel and of other tribes and nations.

 

[Marty fox]

Who are the Promised Ones who possess the Land of God, forever?!

Introduction:

Eschatology does not begin in the Book of Revelation, nor in Daniel or Ezekiel or even with the very words of Christ Yahshua. It begins in the beginning, with the start of the word and the grand plan of God, when the foundations of the earth were set, and the first man began and lived in the garden temple of God on this earth, called Eden or even Paradise.

When Adam was created from the natural elements of the earth and his mate from him, together they would form a family in God’s presence, in his holy Temple. They were to then preserve, maintain and guard the garden Temple from evil that could cause God to abandon them and his presence on the earth. They were to populate Eden and expand its area, to the entire planet and therefore expand the presence of God to all of the then both natural and spiritual earth. To bring all mankind into God and his presence forever. It was the age of innocence.

This first phase of the plan ended at the onset of the age of accountability when man predictively fell away from the presence of God by self-inflicted sin, and he clearly did. Adam and Eve were forced to leave the Temple as Adam of man, the first projected high priest for God, became degraded into a natural state of man, an unspiritual man led into the wilderness of the earth away from the presence of God.

God then decided to restart his purpose with another natural man born around the place of ancient Babel. There was a man named Abram of Ur, Mesopotamia, a part of modern day Iraq today. God Almighty called him out of there and he led him to a promised land away from his home and the land of the Chaldeans. They were known to be priests of other gods and foreign spirits.

God chose Abram to become his new high priest and the father of all future spiritually-transformed people, sealed and gathered from all nations. And thus God renamed him Abraham.

Abraham of faith would then cause the recompense and reinstatement, the renewed presence and Temple of God over time, by salvaging and restoring the remnant of mankind from all nations to himself.

And this man now called Abraham never had a child and especially a son to continue in the path of God’s purpose for mankind, until his God intervened and triggered the next phase of the plan. Abraham and Sarah, of an age well beyond birthing a child, conceived and birthed a son called Isaac, conceived entirely by the power of the Spirit of God.

God’s plan hinged upon a set of agreements or Promises given to Abraham and his descendants, first for his natural people and then for his spiritual people. The natural comes first then it becomes spiritual, its final design and form.

(1Co 15:36) Foolish man! Don’t you know that what you sow in the ground does not germinate unless it dies?

(1Co 15:37) And what you sow is not the body that will come into being, but the bare seed. And it’s hard to tell whether it’s wheat or some other seed.

(1Co 15:38) But when it dies, God gives it a new form, a body to fulfill his purpose, and he sees to it that each seed gets a new body of its own and becomes the plant he designed it to be.(TPT)

The natural or physical comes before the spiritual. This is the process that God created for us. He made us this way. As a seed that sheds its bland container for life and then at the right time sprouts into spiritual glorious splendor, and later into it final state of glory and immortality.

(1Co 15:43) The body is “sown” in decay, but will be raised in immortality. It is “sown” in humiliation, but will be raised in glorification.

(1Co 15:44) It is “sown” in weakness but will be raised in power. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.(TPT)

When God promised land and a people to Abraham, and to his descendants independently, he first introduced the natural and physical things in these promises, knowing well they would all represent the final state of theses promises as spiritual people for a spiritual land.

Abraham knew this already and believed in his God by faith. He looked beyond this natural and physical state of promises, for a better country, a spiritual land for a spiritual chosen people of God.

(Heb 11:10) His eyes of faith were set on the city with unshakable foundations, whose architect and builder is God himself.(TPT)

Abraham looked by faith for and to the Kingdom of God as his better country. He sought a heavenly city of God. He did not look for an earthly piece of land or a physical city as Jerusalem as the final state and purpose of God, only a new Jerusalem a new Kingdom of God.

(Heb 11:16) But they couldn’t turn back for their hearts were fixed on what was far greater, that is, the heavenly realm! So because of this God is not ashamed in any way to be called their God, for he has prepared a heavenly city for them.(TPT)

This is the basis and beginning of Eschatology, for mankind’s final resting place, fully and immersed in the Kingdom of God.

As we proceed forward it must be understood that the New Covenant explains the Old Covenant and not visa versa.

Blessings to all

----------------

Amen the promise is for true Israel the church

Isaiah 59:20
“The Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,” declares the LORD.

Do you ever wonder why both Zion and Jacob are both mentioned but seam different in the verse above?

“The Redeemer (Jesus) will come to Zion,(national Israel) to those in Jacob (true Israel spiritual Israel the church) who repent of their sins,” declares the LORD.

 

[APAK]

(Heb 11:10) His eyes of faith were set on the city with unshakable foundations, whose architect and builder is God himself.(TPT)

Abraham looked by faith for and to the Kingdom of God as his better country. He sought a heavenly city of God. He did not look for an earthly city of Jerusalem, only a new Jerusalem.

(Heb 11:13) These heroes all died still clinging to their faith, not even receiving all that had been promised them. But they saw beyond the horizon the fulfillment of their promises and gladly embraced it from afar. They all lived their lives on earth as those who belonged to another realm.(KJV)

(Heb 11:14) For clearly, those who live this way are longing for the appearing of a heavenly city.

(Heb 11:15) And if their hearts were still remembering what they left behind, they would have found an opportunity to go back.

(Heb 11:16) But they couldn’t turn back for their hearts were fixed on what was far greater, that is, the heavenly realm! So because of this God is not ashamed in any way to be called their God, for he has prepared a heavenly city for them.(KJV)

Those in faith in the OT looked to another realm another city not of this earth, a heavenly city. Earthly Jerusalem did not continue. It was permanently destroyed as God’s city for the last time in 70 AD.

John called the Old Jerusalem Sodom and Egypt. So why do we call this City, holy today?!!!

 

[APAK]

(Rev 11:8) Their dead bodies will lie on the street of the great city that is symbolically called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was also crucified.(TPT)

So how can people refer to the current pagan city of Jerusalem as Holy when God called it wicked and evil?! The current pagan city was built by the Roman Emperor Hadrian, 135 AD.

In the 1560s, the Muslim Ottoman Empire built the walls around the old city. There is ZERO holiness in this City and the land called Israel today.

 

[APAK]

(Gal 4:21-22) Tell me, do you want to go back to living strictly by the law? Haven’t you ever listened to what the law really says? Have you forgotten that Abraham had two sons; one by the slave girl, and the other by the freewoman?

(Gal 4:23) Ishmael, the son of the slave girl, was a child of the natural realm. But Isaac, the son of the freewoman, was born supernaturally by the Spirit—a child of the promise of God!

(Gal 4:24) These two women and their sons express an allegory and become symbols of two covenants. The first covenant was born on Mt. Sinai, birthing children into slavery—children born to Hagar.

(Gal 4:25) For “Hagar” represents the law given at Mt. Sinai in Arabia. The “Hagar” metaphor corresponds to the earthly Jerusalem of today who are currently in bondage.

(Gal 4:26) In contrast, there is a heavenly Jerusalem above us, which is our true “mother.” She is the freewoman, birthing children into freedom! (TPT)

(Gal 3:29) And since you’ve been united to Jesus the Messiah, you are now Abraham’s “child” and inherit all the promises of the kingdom realm!(TPT)

(Rom 9:6) Clearly, God has not failed to fulfill his promises to Israel, for that will never happen! But not everyone who has descended from Israel belongs to Israel.(TPT)

(Rom 9:7) Physical descent from Abraham doesn’t guarantee the inheritance, because God has said: “Through Isaac your descendants will be counted as part of your lineage.”

(Rom 9:8) This confirms that it is not merely the natural offspring of Abraham who are considered the children of God; rather, the children born because of God’s promise are counted as descendants.(TPT)

(Gal 4:28) Dear friends, just like Isaac, we’re now the true children who inherit the kingdom promises. (TPT)

We are all the children of promise and counted for the seed inheritance of God of the Kingdom realm!

 

[APAK]

(Rom 9:24) Even for us, whether we are Jews or non-Jews, we are those he has called to experience his glory.

(Rom 9:25) Remember the prophecy God gave in Hosea: “To those who were rejected and not my people, I will say to them: ‘You are mine.’ And to those who were unloved I will say: ‘You are my darling.’ ”

(Rom 9:26) And: “In the place where they were told, ‘You are nobody,’ this will be the very place where they will be renamed ‘Children of the living God.’ ”

(Rom 9:27) And the prophet Isaiah cries out to Israel: Though the children of Israel are as many as the sands of the seashore, only a remnant will be saved. (TPT)

Only those who are saved are called the children of God. They will inherit the ‘land’ of the Kingdom forever in Christ.

(Rom 9:30) So then, what does all this mean? Here’s the irony: The non-Jewish people, who weren’t even pursuing righteousness, were the ones who seized it—a perfect righteousness that is transferred by faith.

(Rom 9:31) Yet Israel, even though pursuing a legal righteousness, did not attain to it.

(Rom 9:32) And why was that? Because they did not pursue the path of faith but insisted on pursuing righteousness by works, as if it could be seized another way. They were offended by the means of obtaining it and stumbled over the stumbling stone,(TPT)

The National Israel in general, wanted to follow a legalistic rules based path to righteousness, of works of the Law. And were so set in their ways that they were offended that righteousness could be attained just by faith in their future and then present Messiah.

Are these to inherit the Kingdom ‘land’ forever, hardly!

 

[APAK]

(Rom 10:1) My beloved brothers and sisters, the passionate desire of my heart and constant prayer to God is for my fellow Israelites to experience salvation.

(Rom 10:2) For I know that although they are deeply devoted to God, they are unenlightened.

(Rom 10:3) And since they’ve ignored the righteousness God gives, wanting instead to be acceptable to God because of their own works, they’ve refused to submit to God’s faith-righteousness.

(Rom 10:4) For the Christ is the end of the law. And because of him, God has transferred his perfect righteousness to all who believe. (TPT)

National Israel tried to establish their own righteousness of what they thought would please God.

(Rom 11:1) So then I ask you this question: did God really push aside and reject his people? Absolutely not! For I myself am a Jew, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.

(Rom 11:2) God has not rejected his chosen, destined people! Haven’t you heard Elijah’s testimony in the Scriptures, and how he prays to God, agonizing over Israel? (TPT)

(Rom 11:5) And that is but one example of what God is doing in this age of fulfillment, for God’s grace empowers his chosen remnant.(TPT)

Paul and others were chosen out of National Israel as the remnant, He empowered them because of his grace.----------

--------more to come in another day-------------------

 

[Earburner]

You tell the story in an interesting way, and there is certainly truth in it. But you take a few liberties that are not really stated in the Bible. Since this is just background to your main idea, I'll just let these things go.

But the idea that you correlate the natural/spiritual dichotomy to the Israel/Church dichotomy can be misleading. Replacement Theology completely eliminates the Jewish People from the Church because the majority of them are not spiritual, but only the natural children of Abraham.

But the truth is, all of the Church are both natural and spiritual. The Jewish People can be the natural children of Abraham today, and not be spiritual, but then become spiritual later.

Can you imagine my arguing that there is an English/Church dichotomy or a Germany/Church dichotomy? It doesn't make sense. The German nation may not be Christian today, but it may repent and return to being a Christian nation tomorrow. The English people may have forfeited their status as Christians today, as a people, but tomorrow they may, as a people, restore their identity as a Christian people.

So also can the Jews have denied their place as God's people today, and yet tomorrow, reestablish themselves as God's people. This isn't to say that every last one of the Jews must become a Christian for them to be a Christian people. To be a Christian people, only the majority of them need make that claim. That is also true for the Jewish people, in my view.

I percieve that the symbolism of the 144,000, is an accurate picture of completion. It speaks of an unknown number of the Jewish people, who by faith alone, have come to God through Jesus as their Savior, down through the centuries, ever since Pentecost.

 

[Enoch111]

...It speaks of an unknown number of the Jewish people...

How can the precise number 144,000 speak of an "unknown number? This is a very specific group unrelated to any other non-specific groups.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Back to the OT....

(Gen 12:1) Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee( KJV)

(Gen 12:2) And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing(KJV)

(Gen 12:3) And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.(KJV)

These words spoken in the Old Covenant only apply to the Old Covenant. The blessings and curses only apply to that Old Covenant not somehow bled into the New Covenant and the seed in Christ, and into the distant future.

If you don't think OT promises are fulfilled in the New Testament, what do you think Jesus fulfilled?

 

[Randy Kluth]

I percieve that the symbolism of the 144,000, is an accurate picture of completion. It speaks of an unknown number of the Jewish people, who by faith alone, have come to God through Jesus as their Savior, down through the centuries, ever since Pentecost.

Yes, I think that may be correct. Apart from this, I personally believe that fallen nations can be restored, once Satan is removed from the world, and Christ returns with his Church. We're told we'll be judges, perhaps condemning the sin of both men and angels on earth, allowing nations to become Christian without opposition?

This way I think Israel can be fulfilled as a Chosen Nation, and the many other nations promised to Abraham--the Christian nations of the world--can be restored, as well? Anyway, I see that as a hypothetical scenario.

 

[Randy Kluth]

How can the precise number 144,000 speak of an "unknown number? This is a very specific group unrelated to any other non-specific groups.

I personally think that 144,000 is symbolic, though I admit I could be wrong. There are no tribal divisions anymore in Israel, and there haven't been for many centuries--in fact, millennia! So this is usually when impossible numbers are intended to be understood as symbolic.

The time when this number was given the tribal divisions had already lost their significance. They were mentioned only in connection with the hope of the Jews in seeing a complete national fulfillment at the coming of Messiah.

All 12 tribes are mixed in and immersed with the Jewish People. So, the fulfillment of the Jewish People is the fulfillment of God to all 12 tribes. I think that is the idea.

Presently, a remnant of Jewish believers exists to retain the promise of Israel's Christian restoration. When Jesus comes, he will restore the whole nation to a Christian standing, as I see it.

12,000 per tribe represents equal inheritance, and not an exact number of people per tribe, since the tribes no longer exist. Israel will be a single nation, meaning that the 12 tribes, mixed in, enjoy a common inheritance.

 

[Enoch111]

There are no tribal divisions anymore in Israel, and there haven't been for many centuries--

That makes no difference. God sees the tribes of Israel in the future not only as exactly the twelve tribes, but settled in Greater Israel along very specific boundaries. See Ezekiel 48. We at the present time cannot see what God sees in the future, but the very fact that Revelation 7 and 14 present the 12 tribes should be enough to settle the questions. And Romans 11 tells us that there will be a redeemed and restored Israel. This is New Testament truth (supported by a huge number of OT passages).

 

[Enoch111]

You really need to calm down and provide scripture Enoch for your statements.

I provided plenty of Scripture. So do you or do you not agree that the twelve tribes of Israel will be settled in Greater Israel after the Second Coming of Christ? According to the promises of God.

The reason I don't "calm down" is when people simply ignore Scripture to promote their pet ideas. Then Scripture becomes meaningless.

 

[Enoch111]

And believers in Christ are also the seed of Abraham and heirs to the promise.

Except that the eternal home of the Church is NOT the land of Israel but the heavenly city New Jerusalem.

 

[Curtis]

Since New Jerusalem is a HEAVENLY CITY it will replace the sun as a source of light for the New Earth. So this has absolutely nothing to do with the land promised to Abraham and his descendants.

Revelation 3:12 that city comes to earth.

Revelation 21 and 22 also, both chapters.

Revelation 21:23-24 and and 22:5 explains the lighting set-up, it’s not from New Jerusalem orbiting the earth and acting like the sun.

Bottom line is God, Jesus and all Gods people, Jew and Greek/gentile will not be in heaven, but on the earth- and Jesus Rules His kingdom from the earth, not from heaven.

 

[Curtis]

Since New Jerusalem is a HEAVENLY CITY it will replace the sun as a source of light for the New Earth. So this has absolutely nothing to do with the land promised to Abraham and his descendants.

Nope. It comes down to earth from heaven. Revelation 3:12 and chapters 21 and 22 absolutely refute you.

You need to read ALL of 21 and 22 too.

The nations of the earth go into that city to worship, but they don’t take a space shuttle there.
Read Revelation 21 and 22.