The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Behold]

Is there anywhere besides in Paul's letters that speak of people of God as the "Body of Christ"? Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles, not one of the 12?

I can't think of any, myself.

Much love!

Do you need the verse to literally say..>"body of Christ"? or "Bride of Christ"

If not : 1 Peter 2:9

 

[Timtofly]

The elect from the 4 winds are the trib saints, not the saints that are caught up unsuspectedly as a thief.

The trib saints from the last 1992 years. Also all the OT saints from Abraham's bosom. They are all up in the four corners of Paradise.

 

[Naomi25]

Genesis 2:8


"And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed."

Genesis 1:26-30

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so."

We see God created many humans to fill the earth. Male and Female.

This text does not definitively prove that God made ‘many’ male and female persons. Yes…it could…perhaps…be understood this way, but certainly it is not demanded we understand it this way. It could just as easily be speaking of Adam and Eve alone…they cover the ‘male and female’ requirements.
When a text is as vague as this one, I prefer to have other texts to support the idea. If none can be found, then we must acknowledge that any ideas we have regarding it is supposition at best.

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Then after the 7th Day, God came back planted a Garden separate from the rest of the earth. He took one man from the sons of God and put this unnamed man in the Garden. Adam was not created separately. But the Garden was planted after the 7th Day.

This? This is pure speculation bordering on fantasy.

There is nothing in scripture that says God took ‘one man from the sons of God’ and separated him from ‘other men’ to place him in the garden.
Scripture tells us that God planted a garden, then formed a man from the dust of the earth to place IN the garden. No mention of other men. At all.

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After the Flood only Adam's direct descendant, Noah was left on the earth. So, no where does it claim the sons of God created on the 6th day were left on earth. If you think they all rebelled or died, that is neither here nor there. Those who rebelled certainly were destroyed in the Flood.

Again…you are drawing a conclusion based solely upon a previous supposition.
I think..for the purpose of this conversation, we need to define ‘sons of God’. We first see the phrase in Gen 6:2 when ‘the sons of God’ saw that the ‘daughters of men’ were attractive.

Job 38:4-7
“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
Who determined its measurements—surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
when the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Psalm 82:1, 6-7
God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
nevertheless, like men you shall die,
and fall like any prince.”


We also see the term in the above two texts. And the context clearly shows that ‘sons of God’ is not a term used for mankind, but heavenly beings.

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But only Adam's family was left on the earth.

Do you need the Scripture where Abraham was called out of Adam's family to create another separate Nation from all the other Nations?

No, I don’t need the scripture. Could use some clarification on what point you’re attempting to make…

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Now today, the church is called out and separated even from Abraham's nation and the whole of Adam's family.

I’d have to say this is incorrect. We know it’s incorrect because of the images and texts Paul gives us…Rom 9-11.
Abraham remains the faithful patriarch of ‘Israel’. Paul points out that all throughout the OT there were ‘faithful’ Jews, like Abraham, that did not rebel against God. Indeed, the Apostles were faithful Jews. They started the Church but are clearly still part of faithful ‘Israel’…part of the remnant.
What Paul does in the image of the ‘tree’ is let us know that while unbelieving Jews have been pruned off the tree…and believing Gentiles are grafted on…it is still very much considered ‘believing Israel’. Two peoples becoming one under the ultimate promise of Abraham (Gal 3:28-29).
That is NOT being ‘called out and separated from Abraham’s nation’…indeed, it is become part of it.

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The church is a separate kingdom from Abraham's family of Nations. It is those who return to the Garden/Paradise. But the rest of the world is going to be destroyed. Except Israel will still have a remnant. The Nation of Israel is still a separate kingdom, because it is based on earth, not in Paradise with Adam's family. And all the Nations will have a remnant as well, via those beheaded and resurrected in Revelation 20:4.

Again…I disagree. You’ve got so many different ‘kingdoms’ or people groups here, that its quite twisty and complicated. Which is NOT how Paul tells us it is.
Paul says that we have one ‘tree’. Those ‘on’ the tree are Christ’s body…believers in Christ. That is the only requirement to being on the tree…accepting Christ. These believers are made up of both Jews AND Gentiles.
The people who do not believe Christ are seen as Jew and Gentile. There remains separation here ONLY in the respect that Paul seems to single out unbelieving Jews for the potential of being ‘grafted back in’ if they come to Christ. And, should they do that, they also become part of the tree.
One people in Christ. Gal 3:27-29

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Israel was always the physical kingdom on earth. The church was the spiritual kingdom from above, Paradise. Israel was not the church called out of Egypt. Israel was a physical nation with physical laws, that foreshadowed the Lamb of God. Many of Israel were called into that heavenly kingdom. Many chose to reject both God's heavenly kingdom and the laws of the earthly kingdom. Israel was not just a corporate institution to broadly enter Paradise, because of one's physical birth.

This is problematic. If we trust what Paul tells us in Gal 3 and Rom 9-11, then we cannot have a separation between Israel/church. Which rather creates a problem with the idea that Israel is for earth, while the Church is for heaven.

. That is the wrong interpretation of history, and then some claim to be spiritual Israel, when Israel was always physical and never spiritual. Only those born as a direct descendant of Jacob, can be a spiritual Israel, by also being born from above spiritually. Otherwise one is a spiritual American, a spiritual Egyptian, or whatever nationality, as well as born from above. Scripture just calls all the nations as Gentiles. No one is in or building the physical kingdom of Israel currently. That kingdom will not be resurrected, as in the valley of dry bones, until the Second Coming when Christ as Prince inherits the throne and reboots the kingdom of Israel. Israel stopped being a kingdom when the northern 10 tribes were exiled. Even though a remnant kept the Temple going the kingdom itself was dead. It was under the Greeks then the Romans, and then 70AD ended even that era.

I’m sorry…but wrong.

Romans 9:6-8
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Galatians 3:7
Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.

Galatians 3:16, 18
Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ…
For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

Galatians 3:27-29
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

 

[Naomi25]

Romans 11:23-26

"And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"

Paul said God could and would graft Israel back in. The Second Coming is the point of restoration. The Second Coming is the end of the fulness of the Gentiles.

Forgive me if my answer is a little off…I tried to find in what post I asked the above question, so I can’t really remember the context of it or your reply.

I think I want to actually ask a question in return here. If the end of the ‘fullness of the Gentiles’ is AT Christ’s return, how are the unbelieving Jews to be grafted back on? Their time, as it were, would be no more. When Christ returns he returns in judgment, not to hover in the sky so all may see and repent.
As well as the verse in Matt where Christ outright tells the Jews that they would not see him again UNTIL they said ‘blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord’.
I would imagine, wouldn’t you, that this therefore must occur before Christ’s return..?

 

[Timtofly]

No, the church follows Christ to Armageddon.

Jerusalem isn't being attacked. It was occupied by the antichrist and his armies for 42 months by the time Christ and his army (the church and the angels) arrive at Armageddon.

The Second Coming is before the final harvest. The final harvest is before the 42 months.

Christ and the angels are here for the final harvest way before Armageddon. Armageddon is clean up only if necessary. Not many people left alive by Armageddon. 3.5 years of desolation is going to wipe out humans faster than the GT. People will be avoiding Satan by getting their heads chopped off. This 42 months is not a bountiful utopia where millions of new humans are born. If we have assisted suicide and abortion under grace, wait till it is all out killing and being killed. Utter desolation with only beheadings to bring peace to many.

 

[Naomi25]

The context of Matthew 25 is post the Second Coming. It has nothing to do with the fulness of the Gentiles prior to the Second Coming.

My discussion with marks about Matt 25 had nothing to do with the ‘fullness of the Gentiles’. He was suggesting…or musing…that Matt 25 could be interpreted that a person would be judged as either sheep or goat based on their works.
I was simply pointing out that the rest of scripture would not support that interpretation.

Of course Amil would then have to consider life on earth post the Second Coming. If the Second Coming is final, then Matthew 25 cannot even exist, as it is the period after the so called finality of the Second Coming..

That makes no sense…and borders on building a strawman of Amil’s beliefs.

 

[Timtofly]

Noooo, Christ brings back with Him those who have died throughout time that believed upon Him ,the souls under the altar for example .
I cannot see for the life of me ,other than God blinding you'll , why you can't see this.

Those that believe and endure till the return ,ie, the end ,will be changed to those whom Christ brings with Him, Not because of some rapture ,but because they are with Him already . The instant you die , you return to God

I agree that all in Paradise currently have permanent incorruptible physical bodies waiting to meet us in the air. But they are not coming to earth. Paul says forever with the Lord, not on earth forever with Christ the Prince.

Paradise remains totally in heaven until 1000 years later and comes down as the New Jerusalem. Only then will the Lord be on earth in the New Jerusalem. The 1000 years is not for the glorified church. It will only be a day with the Lord any way. The 1000 year reign is from the firstfruits of the final harvest after the church is raptured. The 144k, the sheep, the wheat, and if necessary those beheaded. Only those people, a remnant from the GT will rule and reign on earth. Revelation 19 says:

"And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

It does not say the saints or redeemed or the church. One can only assume here.

 

[Naomi25]

Stop looking at it as a tree?

Stop using the image given by scripture itself and make something else up? Why would I do that?

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Look at it as the Lamb's book of life.

Every human ever conceived is written in the Lamb's book of life.

Wrong. Only those in Christ are found in ‘the Lamb’s book of life’.

Revelation 20:12, 15
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done…
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

There are clearly two books. And we are told very plainly that those who are NOT in the book of life are thrown into the fire.

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The church leaves before the 7th Seal is opened and cannot be ever removed from the Lamb's book of life. Those currently in sheol are technically still in the Lamb's book of life. They will stand as dead at the GWT to either remain and allowed eternal life, or removed and cast into the LOF.

This leaves the post Second Coming people alive on earth, and even those born over the next 1000 years. The book is open, any one can be removed who are alive on earth at any moment. The iron rod rule, where names can be removed, but only for a specific reason.

I’m sorry, but all I see here is assumptions leading to mistaken doctrine.
There is no way to prove that the Church ‘leaves’ before the 7th Seal is opened. The text does not say that and I would argue does not even hint at it.

And then, the idea that there will be folks post second coming, who proceed ‘alive’ in natural bodies into the ‘millennium’? Not a single shred of evidence for this is found in scripture. Everything we read about Christ’s return tells us, in every possible manner, that NO ONE will make it through his return in a natural body. All believers will receive their resurrection bodies (1 Cor 15, 1 Thess 4, etc) and all unbelievers will be judged into hell.

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So how does the Lamb's book of life work just like the tree metaphor? Israel as a nation was a guaranteed shoe in. Except even God reserved the right to place even those of Israel into sheol until the GWT. That was pointed out when the ground opened at Mt. Sinai and swallowed whole hundreds of Israelites. God showed them at the giving of the Law, He was being serious about their status, and they better tow the line. They still did not get it when they approached the Promised Land. They still balked and God made them wander for 40 years till that generation died. All Paul pointed out was that God was finished with Israel, not that they all were condemned to death. God was just giving the "branch status" to the church, called the fulness of the Gentiles.

No nation was ever guaranteed to remain in the Lamb's book of life corporately, not even the church as a whole. Remaining in the Lamb's book of life was still an individual choice.

It doesn’t work as the tree metaphor. Which is why, I assume, Paul didn’t use it.

 

[Truth7t7]

All believers will receive their resurrection bodies (1 Cor 15, 1 Thess 4, etc) and all unbelievers will be judged into hell.



It doesn’t work as the tree metaphor. Which is why, I assume, Paul didn’t use it.

Hell isnt eternal, as Hell will be cast into the lake if fire, this is eternal

Revelation 20:14-15KJV
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Timtofly]

This text does not definitively prove that God made ‘many’ male and female persons. Yes…it could…perhaps…be understood this way, but certainly it is not demanded we understand it this way. It could just as easily be speaking of Adam and Eve alone…they cover the ‘male and female’ requirements.
When a text is as vague as this one, I prefer to have other texts to support the idea. If none can be found, then we must acknowledge that any ideas we have regarding it is supposition at best.

Of course there is other text. Genesis 6:1-2

"And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose."

Those men were the offspring of Adam and Eve. The sons of God were created on the 6th day.

Genesis 1 cannot be about Eve, not even symbolically. Eve was taken out of Adam not even in the image of God. Of course if she was equal to Adam she would be an equal son of God in God's image, but the operation was not the same as day 6 creation. And they were not created at the same time. Eve came much later.

 

[n2thelight]

I agree that all in Paradise currently have permanent incorruptible physical bodies waiting to meet us in the air. But they are not coming to earth. Paul says forever with the Lord, not on earth forever with Christ the Prince.

Paradise remains totally in heaven until 1000 years later and comes down as the New Jerusalem. Only then will the Lord be on earth in the New Jerusalem. The 1000 years is not for the glorified church. It will only be a day with the Lord any way. The 1000 year reign is from the firstfruits of the final harvest after the church is raptured. The 144k, the sheep, the wheat, and if necessary those beheaded. Only those people, a remnant from the GT will rule and reign on earth. Revelation 19 says:

"And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

It does not say the saints or redeemed or the church. One can only assume here.

At the 7th and last Trump ,Christ leaves Heaven with all of His Saints ,and comes to this earth.

Zechariah 14:1 "Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee."

Behold", "look and see" is the command here. The events of this chapter are going to happen on the "Day of the Lord", also referred to as "the Lord's Day". When that day comes to pass, Satan will have ruled for the past five [5] month from his headquarters in Jerusalem [Revelation 9:5 and 10]. By the time that this "Day of the Lord" takes place, the entire world will be locked into the Antichrist's [Satan's] one world religious system, and the locust army of fallen angels will be in full control. Details of that time of Satan's control are written of Revelation 9, and Joel 1 and 2, and many other places.

Zechariah 14:4 "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

This will happen on "the day of the Lord". God will shake the earth and send fire and brimstone upon it. The earthquakes will flatten the cities to where not one stone will stand upon another. Those two great mountains will shake, and the mount of Olives will split. All prophecies concerning Christ return include Mount Zion, and the Mount of Olives will be fulfilled. This is where Christ's feet will touch the earth, when He returns.

There is no gathering back to Christ before this verse in all of scripture .

This Day starts the Millennium ,right here on earth .

 

[Truth7t7]

At the 7th and last Trump ,Christ leaves Heaven with all of His Saints ,and comes to this earth.

Zechariah 14:1 "Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee."

Behold", "look and see" is the command here. The events of this chapter are going to happen on the "Day of the Lord", also referred to as "the Lord's Day". When that day comes to pass, Satan will have ruled for the past five [5] month from his headquarters in Jerusalem [Revelation 9:5 and 10]. By the time that this "Day of the Lord" takes place, the entire world will be locked into the Antichrist's [Satan's] one world religious system, and the locust army of fallen angels will be in full control. Details of that time of Satan's control are written of Revelation 9, and Joel 1 and 2, and many other places.

Zechariah 14:4 "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

This will happen on "the day of the Lord". God will shake the earth and send fire and brimstone upon it. The earthquakes will flatten the cities to where not one stone will stand upon another. Those two great mountains will shake, and the mount of Olives will split. All prophecies concerning Christ return include Mount Zion, and the Mount of Olives will be fulfilled. This is where Christ's feet will touch the earth, when He returns.

There is no gathering back to Christ before this verse in all of scripture .

This Day starts the Millennium ,right here on earth .

The "Day Of The Lord" you mention in Zechariah 14:1, is the same "Day Of The Lord" seen in 2 Peter 3:10-13, when the Lord "Dissolves" the heavens and earth by his fire in judgement (The End)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[Timtofly]

Scripture tells us that God planted a garden, then formed a man from the dust of the earth to place IN the garden. No mention of other men. At all.

Have you ever considered that Genesis 1 was a general revelation? Genesis 2 was more specific about a single son of God? You cannot use the second mention to completely nullify the first mention. Genesis 2 builds on Genesis 1, it does not supplant and redefine Genesis 1. All the sons of God were created the same way. Genesis 2 is slightly more specific. This man was identified by gender, not by the difference of man and son of God. All the sons of God had gender, because they were created male and female.

The only other way to read Genesis 1 is that each son of God were both male and female. Evidenced by God later viewing that as a single being containing both sexes, made for a lonely relationship on an individual level. Adam was not even named until after he named all the animals. Adam was not lonely until after being separated from the others and placed in the Garden. Adam was put to sleep to separate the male from the female.

 

[Timtofly]

Job 38:4-7
“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
Who determined its measurements—surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
when the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

The morning stars were the angels. The sons of God were humans. God says He created both at the same time. One on day 4, the other on day 6. They both communicated with each other, giving God praise.

 

[Timtofly]

We also see the term in the above two texts. And the context clearly shows that ‘sons of God’ is not a term used for mankind, but heavenly beings.

Umm. We were in the image of God. You cannot get more heavenly. The angels were not created in the image of God. When Adam disobeyed God, all his descendants lost their heavenly standing in Seth. Seth was born in Adam's fallen image. We are currently not sons of God other than we have a soul. Genesis 5:1-3

"This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:"

We see here the contrast prior to sin, and Seth because of sin. We are fallen in dead flesh, and separated from our spirit which is the glory of God. At the Second Coming we will be glorified, and our spirit will return to us like a "robe of white" as John symbolizes in the 5th Seal.

 

[Oseas]

Do you need the verse to literally say..>"body of Christ"? or "Bride of Christ"
If not : 1 Peter 2:9

For you and all who lives in Israel:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - PUT THIS IN YOUR MIND ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ THE RED SEA AND THE RED DRAGON ~~~~~~~~~~~~

I believe you know that the Hebrews had to cross the Red Sea, and walk through a desert, walk until they got to the Promised Land after 40 years of peregrination / pilgrimage. What about GOD's people now in the current time?

Now GOD's people will have to go through (I mean win a war) against the Red Dragon, that's exactly it, a Red Dragon yes, this is no coincidence, it was predicted millennia ago. He's a false messiah who will soon manifest, just ahead, with great signs of lying, he will manifest in Israel as a lamb with two horns, he's a Jew, of course, and he'll speak like a Dragon. Revelation 12.v.3 to 17 and Revelation 13:v. 11 to 18.

Let's get ready to go through this not easy FINAL journey of GOD's people here until the glorious, marvelous, and day of exceedingly joy - the day 1335. Amen.

Remembering and understanding that the departure of the Hebrew people from Egypt was not, without first having taken place a battle against Pharaoh (by the way, there and now is Satan himself), and when the march began for the departure of God's people from Egypt, then the enemy army persecuted the Hebrews, the same will happen now, initially the persecution will be by the man Beast of the sea, it is he who will first persecute the Christian believers - Revelation 13:v.5 - for 42 months, that is the first half of the last week, the week 70th Daniel 9:v.27. This POINT is only and only the half of the way -3,5 years or 42 months, the GOD's people will need to march more 3,5 years, so the murch will last 7 years, it will not be easy this journey of course.

Again: Let's get ready to go through this not easy FINAL journey of GOD's people here until the glorious, marvelous, and day of exceendigly joy - the day 1335. Amen.

JESUS in His prayer to the Father, said: John 17:v.15 - I pray not that thou take them out of the world, but that thou keep them from the evil.

Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Matthew 5:v.5

Get ready, yeah, get ready.

 

[Timtofly]

I think I want to actually ask a question in return here. If the end of the ‘fullness of the Gentiles’ is AT Christ’s return, how are the unbelieving Jews to be grafted back on? Their time, as it were, would be no more. When Christ returns he returns in judgment, not to hover in the sky so all may see and repent.
As well as the verse in Matt where Christ outright tells the Jews that they would not see him again UNTIL they said ‘blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord’.
I would imagine, wouldn’t you, that this therefore must occur before Christ’s return..?

Christ comes to Jerusalem to set upon the throne of David, ie Jerusalem. Christ is the Prince of Israel. Christ has yet to actually be the Prince of Israel. Christ did not hover and remote in as Messiah. Why would He be remoting as Israel's Prince? Being Prince is a physical task on earth, not a heavenly one.

The Second Coming is to earth. And only then will the prophecy that "Israel is saved in a day" will be fulfilled. You realize the metaphor of the olive tree only works in the here and now. At the Second Coming it is complete and no longer applicable. The Lamb's book of life is opened. God's judgment will fall on those who destroy the earth. The only choice John gives after the Second Coming is to be beheaded. Only those beheaded will belong to the olive tree metaphor if it even applied.

The Millennium is no longer about the olive tree.

 

[Timtofly]

My discussion with marks about Matt 25 had nothing to do with the ‘fullness of the Gentiles’. He was suggesting…or musing…that Matt 25 could be interpreted that a person would be judged as either sheep or goat based on their works.
I was simply pointing out that the rest of scripture would not support that interpretation.


That makes no sense…and borders on building a strawman of Amil’s beliefs.

It is not a strawman. Amil has error in it's approach.

 

[Timtofly]

Wrong. Only those in Christ are found in ‘the Lamb’s book of life’.

Obviously. The branch cut off would indicate that for thousands of years many of Israel would have to be removed from the Lamb's book of life on principle alone.

On the flip side, the fullness of the Gentiles does not imply that every single person born over the last 1992 years will remain in the Lamb's book of life.

The metaphor of the olive tree is only symbolic. The Lamb's book of life is reality, and if one's name is removed, there is no grafting back in. Stick with your metaphor while it lasts. The Lamb's book of life is eternal.

 

[Timtofly]

I’m sorry, but all I see here is assumptions leading to mistaken doctrine.
There is no way to prove that the Church ‘leaves’ before the 7th Seal is opened. The text does not say that and I would argue does not even hint at it.

The 7th Seal is opened in the 8th chapter. Chapter 7 clearly shows the whole church in Paradise prior to that last Seal being opened. You can alter and explain away the book of Revelation any which way that suits you. I prefer to just take it as written.