sorry but we were here first!
You’re errors are from the 16th century rebellion! (Reformation)
truth is immutable!
The church is ir-reformable
Let the Bible interpret the bible
- Thread starter theefaith
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
sorry but we were here first!
You’re errors are from the 16th century rebellion! (Reformation)
truth is immutable!
The church is ir-reformable
that’s all from a papal encyclical
church is the body of Christ under hierarchical authority!
apostles administer the kingdom and govern the church
But you are unable to name even one apostle for us to follow today as you deny that the man known as Pope Francis qualifies. Who does?
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Wrong my truth is from Scripture, finally able to be reads by the common people! And who recognized the lies of Rome for 12 centuries.
The Roman church didn't happen until the end of the fourth or early fifth century! The body of Christ supersedes Rome!
Yes Gods Word is immutable!
Because you accept teh infallibility of your church- that is why it is so steeped in demonic lies!
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
apostles are dead! And no hierarchal authority can go against Scripture. If they do they must be resisited!
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
of course we do! but not because sin will cause us to lose our salvation! That is the bible.
Jesus has already paid for all the sins for those who believe His death and physical resurrection paid for all their sins as is declared in Sripture.
Not only that, but up until the 2nd Vatcan Council, the Mass was said in Latin. So no one could understand it.I love Gregorian chant, but I need awhile and a good Latin dictionary to know what they are singing.
I am a first year Latin student, and for me it is a hard language, and I put hours of study into it. If someone was preaching to me in Latin, I would still have no idea what they were saying.
Can you imagine (this was going on when i was a kid) going to church to worship God, and not know what was going on? you just knew you had to make the sign of the Cross in this part and genuflect in this part. How was that worship?
"Protestant churches springing up in Europe after the Reformation. Protestants rejected the authority of the Pope and of the Church and showed it by saying people could read and interpret the Bible for themselves. Catholics meanwhile were discouraged from reading Scripture.
Identifying the reading and interpreting of the Bible as “Protestant” even affected the study of Scripture. Until the twentieth Century, it was only Protestants who actively embraced Scripture study. That changed after 1943 when Pope Pius XII issued the encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu. This not only allowed Catholics to study Scripture, it encouraged them to do so. And with Catholics studying Scripture and teaching other Catholics about what they were studying, familiarity with Scripture grew.
Scripture awareness grew after the Second Vatican Council. Mass was celebrated in the vernacular and so the Scripture readings at Mass were read entirely in English. Adult faith formation programs began to develop, and the most common program run at a parish focused on Scripture study"
Changes in Catholic Attitudes Toward Bible Readings | USCCB
This was a long time for church parishioners to be in the dark. I do not know how anyone could call the Reformation heresy.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well I will let you stand before God and answer for why you reject His Word for Roman teaching. The end.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
The Reformation was a very messy time. The church was breaking out of the dark ages of Romanism. bible interpretation was all over the place because the reformers were all former catholics. It took time to remove even from the reformers and their churches Roman lies.
Mary,
Puirgatory,
Indulgences
Transubstantiation
Losing ones salvation
priests being able to forgive sin
holydays of obligation.
celibacy
prohibition of bible reading
And on and on. These problems were not solved over night. Besides the massive civil upheaval ( as so much of Europe was under the boot heel of Rome), it took time for bibles to circulate and the Spirit to work in hearts and minds and break through many established traditions.
I was a Satanist when I got saved and went back to the Catholic church. All the old teachings flooded back in. I used to war with protestants, until my aunt sent me a bible in the mail. Teh more I read, the more troubled I was! It took several years for me to rid myself of the false teachings of Rome.
But the answer to my question? Who definitely today according to you qualifies as an apostle. A specific name and location please!
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Show me in the new covenant as detailed in Jeremiah 31 where baptism is required?
polycarp was a 1st century catholic bishop disciple of the apostle John
the scripture authority is in hierarchy, suburb, obey, & hear the authority of Christ thru his apostles and not spiritual anarchy
Jesus Christ extends his mission, power, and authority to His church of His apostles!
Even His judging!
Matt 19:28
His teaching authority!
Matt 28:19 and Jn 20:21
His power to forgive sins!
Jn 20:23
His being the light of the world!
Matt 5:14
His ministry of reconciliation!
2 cor 5:18
Apart from me you can do nothing. Jn 15:5
So the church is subject to Christ!
Eph 5:24
Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Matt 18:17 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15
1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema
Extends to the truth and the church
Cos Christ is the truth and His church teaches the truth without error! Jn 14:6 matt 28:19 matt 18:17 1 Tim 3:15 Jn 29:21-23 Jn 16:13
Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32
Authority of the Apostles!
What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?
Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!
John 17:18
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well, apostle means one who is sent!
Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!
Apostolic succession!
The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!
Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20
Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22
Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.
Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.
Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments
The apostles teaching is Christ’s teaching, Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4
Christian rule of faith is not the Bible alone! But the doctrine of the apostles! Acts 2:42
Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20
not what Christ and scripture says
Matt 28:19-20
Go to all nations
So there must be successors to the apostles
And it says I am with you (the apostles) till the end
Apostolic succession!
Successors of Jesus Christ!
Matt 28:19-20
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
So there must be successors to the apostles, the USA was not a nation for 1800 years after the apostles, yet He says teach all nations!
And behold I am with you (the apostles) to the end of the world!
Jesus already prepares His apostles to continue His mission with His power (binding and loosing) and with His authority (keys) matt 16:18 matt 18:18
Same mission, power, and authority Jn 20:21-23
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
John 4:1 when therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John...
Jn 4:2 Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples
Here we see Jesus delegating to His successors, Peter and the apostles!
Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing
There can be no unity of the spirit without obedience to the faith! Rom 1:5 eph 4:3
Matt 28 I am with you (the apostles)
The papacy based on Matt 16:18 and Isa 22:21-22
Matt 16:18-19
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Isa 22:21-22
21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.
22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.
Behold I am with you (the successors or the apostles until the end of the world,so the successors of the apostles must remain until the end of the world) matt 28:19
(None of the so called reformers were apostles) (no man has authority to start a church)
Successors of Moses!
Matt 23 why does Jesus say to obey the successors of Moses?
The successors of Moses sit in the chair of Moses having the authority of the keys and the power to bind and loose Matt 23 and Jesus commanded them to be obeyed! Then the kingdom was taken from them matt 21:43 and given to Peter, Matt 16:18 the apostles, Matt 18:18 and their successors with the authority of the keys and the power to bind and lose!
Jesus said to obey the authority of the successors of Moses mt 23 authority of the keys and power to bind and loose and this power and authority was taken from them matt and given by Christ to Peter, the apostles and their successors, mt 16:18 18:18 this same authority and power must be obeyed!
mt 28:18-20 all authority is given to Peter, the apostles, and their successors requiring obedience, rom 1:5 obedience to the faith!
And Jesus say to Peter, the apostles, and their successors: behold I am with you even until the end of the world!!!
So the apostles have to remain until the end! Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and Priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Reign with kingdom authority (keys) power (bind loose) matt 16:18
The successors of Peter and the apostles have a valid jurisdictional authority (keys) and power (bind and loose) by Jesus Christ!
Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...
John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
apostolic succession!
explicit and implicit in scripture
Judas was an apostle
Acts 1:17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
acts 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
Matthias succeeded him as apostle
acts 1: 26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
now if it applies to judas how much more to Peter and the other apostles
Matt 28:19-20
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Jesus is with His church and His apostles until the end! So the apostles must remain until the end governing the church administering the kingdom
Mt 16:18 Peter received the keys of the kingdom: (jurisdictional authority of the universal church) and the power to bind and loose:
Lk 22:32
Jesus prays for Peter:
Jn 21:17
Peter commanded to Feed my sheep:
Isa 22 21-22 prime minister called father!
Holding the keys of the kingdom under the king Lk 1:32-33 in the line of david!
Matt 16:18
Why do you suppose there is a conflict between what Christ teaches and what his church teaches
even scripture has seemingly contradictions but not in reality
The virgin birth
Isa 7:14 and Jn 1:45 for example
Ez 36:25-27
Baptism
A new heart to love God
The Holy Spirit
Mk 16:16 he who believes and is baptized shall be saved
Jn 3:5 baptism
Jn 3:22 went to the river (water) and baptized
Acts 2:38 all are commanded in the name of Jesus to be baptized
acts 8:36-38 faith and baptism
1 pet 3:21 baptism saves us
Baptism!
God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!
Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38
Born again! Born from above!
'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,
Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who I has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.
St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13
Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16
1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)
Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by baptism!
where does scripture says we have died with Christ by “faith alone”?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
where does scripture say we are members of Christ and his church by “faith alone”?
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
where does scripture says we put on Christ by “faith alone”?
Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Where does scripture say our sins are washed away by “faith alone”?
Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
where does scripture say we are saved or justified by “faith alone”?
1 pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
The only reference in scripture to “faith alone” is James 2:24 NOT BY “FAITH ALONE”?
Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Similar threads
