Why did Jesus come to Earth?

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aspen

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A Franciscan perspective on the Incarnation

A key point of the Franciscan view that is often surprising to some is this: The Word of God did not become a creature, a human being, because Adam and Eve sinned. Rather, the divine Word became flesh because from all eternity God wanted Christ to be creation’s most perfect work, the model and crown of creation and of humanity—the glorious destination toward which all creation is straining. The Word would have been incarnated in Christ even if the first man and woman had never sinned!

The foremost champion of these views—after St. Paul, whose writings first introduced them—was the Franciscan friar Blessed John Duns Scotus. Scotus was born in Scotland in 1266, educated at England’s Oxford University and ordained a Franciscan priest in 1291. He taught theology at the University of Paris, died at 42, and was buried in Cologne, Germany, in 1308. Though the approach of John Duns Scotus differs from that of standard Catholic theology, it has never been labeled unacceptable by the Church. And Franciscans, over the centuries, have generally imbibed Scotus’s way of looking at Christ.

If anything, Scotus’s viewpoint has gained prominence in recent times. It has been adopted by such notable Catholic thinkers as Gerard Manley Hopkins, the Jesuit poet; Thomas Merton, the Trappist writer; and Teilhard de Chardin, the Jesuit priest-anthropologist. “Christ is not an afterthought in the divine plan,” writes de Chardin. “He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end of all things.”

According to Scotus, God’s first intention—from all eternity—was that human nature be glorified by being united to the divine Word. And this was to happen regardless of the first humans’ innocence or sinfulness. To say that the Incarnation of Christ was an afterthought of God, dependent on Adam’s fall, would be to base the rich Christian theology of incarnation on sin! Theologians could come up with something better than that, and Duns Scotus did.

Of course, given humanity’s sin, the way Christ eventually came was in the form of a Savior whose great act of love and self-surrender set us free. In Scotus’s view, however, the God-man would have entered creation and human history under any circumstances as the perfect model of the human being fully alive. It was not Adam who provided the blueprint or pattern that God used in shaping the humanity of Christ. It was the other way around, insists Scotus: Christ was the model in God’s mind according to which Adam and Eve, as as well as the rest of the human race, were created.

Comments?

 

John Zain

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Interesting, but sorry, no cigar.

Scripture says ...

Everything was perfect in the Garden ... God and A&E were doing just great.
Until that original sin ... a direct act of disobedience, even rebellion.
Since then, the sin nature has been passed down through the male sperm,
which is proven by the fact that Jesus' Father was the Holy Spirit (not Joseph).
This takes precedance over the possibility of it being through Mary's blood.

God's Law ...
sin results in physical and spiritual death.
Ergo, all humans must die.
But, God relented and came up with a merciful and miraculous Plan,
which was to produce a sinless human to take our places and die for all of us.

This is the only reason for Jesus being born on the earth.
Note: the only place this man "called" Jesus came from was Mary's womb!

Extra: I don't know if I've forgotten or what ... but I don't understand ...
WHY it was necessary for the Son of God to come down and take over Jesus body, etc.
WHY did God have to die for us?
For me, a sinless human dying for us was enough.
Okay, boys and girls, Good Luck with this one.
.
 

aspen

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Interesting, but sorry, no cigar.

Scripture says ...

Everything was perfect in the Garden ... God and A&E were doing just great.
Until that original sin ... a direct act of disobedience, even rebellion.
Since then, the sin nature has been passed down through the male sperm,
which is proven by the fact that Jesus' Father was the Holy Spirit (not Joseph).
This takes precedance over the possibility of it being through Mary's blood.

God's Law ...
sin results in physical and spiritual death.
Ergo, all humans must die.
But, God relented and came up with a merciful and miraculous Plan,
which was to produce a sinless human to take our places and die for all of us.

This is the only reason for Jesus being born on the earth.
Note: the only place this man "called" Jesus came from was Mary's womb!
.

I don't think that Franciscans would disagree with the majority of your post - all except your conclusion. I hope you are not saying that Jesus was simply a man.
Also, don't you think that God knew that sin would enter the world and already had a plan?
 

John Zain

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This is the only reason for Jesus being born on the earth.
I've been congratulating myslef for making such a stupid statement as the above.

Jesus also came to earth ...
-- to preach His gospel
-- to fulfil the Law
-- to fulfil prophecy
-- to defeat Satan
-- to teach us how to pray
-- to show us how to live, i.e. to depend totally on the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
I'm sure there are others.
Sorry for the goof.


And my question still stands ...
WHY it was necessary for the Son of God to come down and take over Jesus' body, etc.
WHY did "fully God" have to die for us?

For me, a sinless human dying for us was enough.
 

aspen

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I've been congratulating myslef for making such a stupid statement as the above.

Jesus also came to earth ...
-- to preach His gospel
-- to fulfil the Law
-- to fulfil prophecy
-- to defeat Satan
-- to teach us how to pray
-- to show us how to live, i.e. to depend totally on the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
I'm sure there are others.
Sorry for the goof.


And my question still stands ...
WHY it was necessary for the Son of God to come down and take over Jesus' body, etc.
WHY did "fully God" have to die for us?

For me, a sinless human dying for us was enough.

I like your correction and totally agree. I am a bit confused about your question.
 

John Zain

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I am a bit confused about your question.
WHY it was necessary for the Son of God to come down and take over Jesus' body, etc.
WHY did "fully God" have to die for us?

One of God's Laws: Sin results in physical and spiritual death.

There are 10 OT and NT verses that teach man has an inherited sin nature as result of A&E's original sin.
So, it's impossible to live a sinless life and be exempt from that Law above and make it to Heaven.
That means ALL of fallen humanity has been doomed from the time of A&E.

However, God relented and came up with A PLAN to save some ...
If there was a human who lived a sinless life, he/she could serve as a substitute for humanity
(i.e. die in its place).

So, God's Spirit miraculously caused the virgin Mary to conceive and have a child.

The child grew up without sin, so it proves that man's sin nature is passed along in the male sperm.
This sinless man shed his blood to satisfy God's requirements.

Okay, this was obviously God's plan ...
but He seems to also have had ANOTHER PLAN involving this sinless man being God.
Christians have been saying for 1700 years that He was "fully God" and "fully man".


My question is ... WHY was this second plan necessary, or even desired by God?
 

aspen

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WHY it was necessary for the Son of God to come down and take over Jesus' body, etc.
WHY did "fully God" have to die for us?

One of God's Laws: Sin results in physical and spiritual death.

There are 10 OT and NT verses that teach man has an inherited sin nature as result of A&E's original sin.
So, it's impossible to live a sinless life and be exempt from that Law above and make it to Heaven.
That means ALL of fallen humanity has been doomed from the time of A&E.

However, God relented and came up with A PLAN to save some ...
If there was a human who lived a sinless life, he/she could serve as a substitute for humanity
(i.e. die in its place).

So, God's Spirit miraculously caused the virgin Mary to conceive and have a child.

The child grew up to live a sinless life, so it proves that man's sin nature is passed along in the male sperm.
This sinless man shed his blood (on the cross or however) to satisfy God's requirements.

Okay, this was God's plan ... but He seems to have had ANOTHER PLAN involving this sinless man also being God.


My question is ... WHY was this second plan necessary, or even desired by God?

Well, I just have an orthodox answer - Jesus was fully man and fully God from the beginning. Asking why it was necessary for Jesus to be God is sort of like asking why is it necessary that people are born with skin - the question just does seem relevant because the orthodox understanding doesn't allow for separating God and human natures in Jesus - see what I mean?

So I hope you find your answer, sorry I am not equipped to give it to you.

Peace
 

John Zain

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Well, I just have an orthodox answer - Jesus was fully man and fully God from the beginning. Asking why it was necessary for Jesus to be God is sort of like asking why is it necessary that people are born with skin - the question just does seem relevant because the orthodox understanding doesn't allow for separating God and human natures in Jesus - see what I mean?
So I hope you find your answer, sorry I am not equipped to give it to you.
Okay, thanks for trying.
At least, you understood my question ... havin' trouble with that these days.

 

Rach1370

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WHY it was necessary for the Son of God to come down and take over Jesus' body, etc.
WHY did "fully God" have to die for us?

One of God's Laws: Sin results in physical and spiritual death.

There are 10 OT and NT verses that teach man has an inherited sin nature as result of A&E's original sin.
So, it's impossible to live a sinless life and be exempt from that Law above and make it to Heaven.
That means ALL of fallen humanity has been doomed from the time of A&E.

However, God relented and came up with A PLAN to save some ...
If there was a human who lived a sinless life, he/she could serve as a substitute for humanity
(i.e. die in its place).

So, God's Spirit miraculously caused the virgin Mary to conceive and have a child.

The child grew up without sin, so it proves that man's sin nature is passed along in the male sperm.
This sinless man shed his blood to satisfy God's requirements.

Okay, this was obviously God's plan ...
but He seems to also have had ANOTHER PLAN involving this sinless man being God.
Christians have been saying for 1700 years that He was "fully God" and "fully man".


My question is ... WHY was this second plan necessary, or even desired by God?

I'll have a crack at this!! Firstly, I would say that it wasn't man saying that Jesus was 'fully man' and 'fully God', or at the least, not just man. Jesus himself taught this.
As to why Jesus 'had to be God and not just a perfect man' I can't tell you exactly, that would mean my understanding is equal to Gods...so, never gonna happen!! But I would hesitate to guess that Jesus had to be both fully God as well as man, because there has never been, nor ever will be such a thing as 'a perfect, sinless man'. As you say, all of humanity has a sin nature that is so ingrained that our every thought, action and even our un-deliberate meditations will always be opposed to the will of God.
Now, I have heard that the whole 'sin is passed from the Father, that's why Jesus was immaculately conceived' thing, and indeed there may be truth in that. But I also whole heartedly believe that Jesus had to be 'fully God' as well. Just consider...if the only way mankind succumbed to sin was because he was born with the nature, why did Adam and Eve fall into sin? God created them perfect, not at all flawed. I think that while ensuring Jesus was not born with a sin nature, God also knew that no man, living with temptation all his life, would ever be able to live a life completely free of sin...the perfect man. Only Jesus, both fully God and fully man, could hope to achieve that... no matter the temptation, no matter the hardship, no matter the stumbling blocks other sinful people threw in his way. The Bible is one long story of man and the thousands of ways he falls into sin, and the beginning example of this is 'perfect' people who had immediate access to God, committing a sin and 'breaking the species'.
As I said, I cannot be certain that this is it, or at the least all of God's reasons. But I believe it to be sound. When it comes down to it, I believe Jesus was both man and God, because He said He was. If I doubt that, then I must then doubt everything He said and did. As Paul said, if there can be any doubt about Jesus or the resurrection, then we are all fools, believing in foolish things. So...I don't doubt!
 

John Zain

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Rach,

Jesus basically taught only with parables, and occasionally said He was trying to hide who He was.

Jesus was a perfect sinless man because His Father was the Holy Spirit (and not Joseph).

Since this human “called/named” Jesus did not have the sin nature (i.e. He was without sin),
why did He ALSO have to be “fully God”, the incarnation of God the Son, and etc.?

Don’t get me wrong, God the Son DID come down and was somehow part of Jesus’ nature.
But, WHY?


Adam and Eve did have one flaw … they had free will to obey God, or not to.
.
 

Rach1370

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Rach,

Jesus basically taught only with parables, and occasionally said He was trying to hide who He was.

Jesus was a perfect sinless man because His Father was the Holy Spirit (and not Joseph).

Since this human “called/named” Jesus did not have the sin nature (i.e. He was without sin),
why did He ALSO have to be “fully God”, the incarnation of God the Son, and etc.?

Don’t get me wrong, God the Son DID come down and was somehow part of Jesus’ nature.
But, WHY?


Adam and Eve did have one flaw … they had free will to obey God, or not to.
.

Well, I still stand by my answer. But when it comes down to it, I believe Jesus was fully God because He said He was. The bible clearly teaches He was, in fact that was the reason the Jews killed Him...He was claiming to be God. I think that we either believe what Jesus said...about everything, or we don't. If we don't believe, just because of our admittedly limited understanding, I think that boarders on the foolish. I know that many people like to understand what they're believing in, but in some cases that is just impossible. It is insane to think we can begin to comprehend all that God does....if God deemed it necessary for His plan to be carried out by Jesus...fully God, fully man...then there was a good and perfect reason behind it. I think it all comes down to that...to trust and faith. Jesus said He was, so I believe.
 

HammerStone

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Aspen, I think your Franciscan viewpoint would find startling agreement with John Piper.

It seems to me that most Christians understand God is amazing, but the true depth of that is often not grasped, myself included. After all, the finite is trying to grasp the infinite. The idea is that we are all created for God's pleasure as Revelation 4:11 so clearly states. I think we'll find agreement on that statement even with differing viewpoints. God Himself, if we accept the Bible and a basic Christian foundation - is perfection.

To try and make the case - I would explain it by God desires our love and worship because He is perfection, and worship of such perfection is warranted because there is no higher ideal/being/state than God. God is God. He alone is perfect. His existence demands the worship and adoration of anything lesser. It is only appropriate to rejoice in Him. (This is why worship should not be associated with lack of emotion and boring and tired routines!)

Jesus enters the picture as - crucially - both God and man because He is the link. He was fully God because God fully experienced what it was to be a man including - most importantly - all of the temptations of being a man. He would have been tempted by money, power, sex, and any lust or desire we face. He was tempted face to face by the best con-artist in the universe, Satan himself. It is important that God be fully man because he has to be fully exposed and able to overcome the sin of man in the flesh. It takes a perfect sacrifice to do this because God's existence, his being, absolutely requires justice. Anything that sins does not deserve to endure, but God gave us a highway to redemption because he endured that same temptation with no excuses and absolutely no failures.

See by nature - and some crazy doctrines I've seen would disagree with the statement I make - we are sinners. When the Holy Spirit indwells us, we don't magically stop sinning. God is there in us, but we are not fully God. We lack the ability to overcome all temptation. By being fully God - God is not divorced from what that human body did. He permeated it as Jesus and was fully subjected to the temptations his creation faces.

I think Jesus is answered fully by an understanding of the three Earth ages. I'm branded as heretical for the doctrine - and so be it, I wouldn't put it out there if I didn't believe it - and thus Jesus was a life-preserver thrown out to a rapidly floundering population. He was planned from before the foundation of this world precisely because Satan rebelled in the first.
 

aspen

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Jesus enters the picture as - crucially - both God and man because He is the link. He was fully God because God fully experienced what it was to be a man including - most importantly - all of the temptations of being a man. He would have been tempted by money, power, sex, and any lust or desire we face. He was tempted face to face by the best con-artist in the universe, Satan himself. It is important that God be fully man because he has to be fully exposed and able to overcome the sin of man in the flesh. It takes a perfect sacrifice to do this because God's existence, his being, absolutely requires justice. Anything that sins does not deserve to endure, but God gave us a highway to redemption because he endured that same temptation with no excuses and absolutely no failures.




I love this explanation of Christ's nature!


[font="tahoma][color="#5d5d5d"]I agree it was startling to see a comparison between John Piper (Calvinist) and contemporary Franciscan (Catholic) thought, but after reading your post, I see your point. I agree with your emphasis on God's perfection and worthiness to be praised - and as a former Calvinist, I see it as an irresistible attraction for people towards God - I simply broaden the field of Calvin's concept of the elect. I tend to believe that Satan, himself is irresistibly attracted to God, but he wants to express his love on his terms, which ends up being narcissistic and demanding worship from Him and His creation - resulting in making him even more angry, bitter, jealous, and destructive.[/color][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"]
[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"]Do you believe [/size][/font]an understanding of the three Earth ages is essential doctrine?
 

John Zain

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Jesus enters the picture as - crucially - both God and man because He is the link. He was fully God because God fully experienced what it was to be a man including - most importantly - all of the temptations of being a man. He would have been tempted by money, power, sex, and any lust or desire we face. He was tempted face to face by the best con-artist in the universe, Satan himself. It is important that God be fully man because he has to be fully exposed and able to overcome the sin of man in the flesh. It takes a perfect sacrifice to do this because God's existence, his being, absolutely requires justice. Anything that sins does not deserve to endure, but God gave us a highway to redemption because he endured that same temptation with no excuses and absolutely no failures.
I see this as a great explanation for why God Himself died on the cross for our sins.
This is what I had forgotten somehow over all these years.
I'm not positive that He HAD to do it, but the Godhead desired it.
I don't know why God HAD to experience all of man's temptations, etc.
I still believe a sinless man going through all of it, and taking our places would be sufficient.
But, would only a man without sin really be sufficient? I'm not positive.
Many thanks for taking the time.
 

martinlawrencescott

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I believe Jesus' authority is part of his identity and his identity is established through his character and his character is seen by his actions.

The reasons his authority resides in a person are many: One reason is because we are carnal minded and he chose to meet us in the flesh, using our reasoning to show us spiritual truths. Another reason is because Jesus deserves praise for who he is and for his work on the cross. We bring glory to the father when we honor the son, but we would be sinning if we gave any glory to the son if he wasn't our Lord God because...

Exodus 20:3 [sup]3[/sup] "you shall have no other gods before me." However, Romans 5:11 "Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation." And 1 Corinthians 8:6 "yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live."

Otherwise, there would be usurption of authority if we upheld Jesus Christ, and there would be division in our service to God because we are told to Love the LORD our God with all our heart and with all oursoul and with all our strength.


The reasons Jesus' identity is established through his character which are seen by his actions are many. One reason is that the invisible qualities of God refer to his character, and character is something that is unknown to everyone, except our own character within us, until our character is demonstrated to others. Power isn't a characteristic of God, and miracles are not either, however God is all-powerful and we know this when he demonstrates his power miraculously. Not demonstrating his power would not cause him to be any less powerful, but because God designed His whole creation around relationship with Himself, works have become the means by which He offers His love to us, and works are how we demonstrate our love to one another.

Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

[sup]Colossians 1:15[/sup] "The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. [sup]16[/sup] For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him."

So your question could be: Did Jesus do everything God would have done if God were in the flesh or is Jesus the incarnation of God in the flesh?

I would answer yes to both.
 

John Zain

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So your question(s) could be:
Did Jesus do everything God would have done if God were in the flesh?
or
Is Jesus the incarnation of God in the flesh?
I would answer yes to both.

Q1 ... very questionable indeed ... for Jesus depended totally on the other 2 Persons of the Godhead.
Q2 ... the Bible certainly says that He was.
 

tim_from_pa

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A Franciscan perspective on the Incarnation

A key point of the Franciscan view that is often surprising to some is this: The Word of God did not become a creature, a human being, because Adam and Eve sinned. Rather, the divine Word became flesh because from all eternity God wanted Christ to be creation’s most perfect work, the model and crown of creation and of humanity—the glorious destination toward which all creation is straining. The Word would have been incarnated in Christ even if the first man and woman had never sinned!

I agree, the Word would have been incarnated whether or not Adam and Eve sinned. And I would take it one step further. Had Adam not sinned, and eaten of the tree of life, that would have been the incarnation the way God originally intended it! It matters not if God chose to incarnate himself that way, or through the virgin birth. Christ became everything Adam was supposed to have become. That's the whole point of the bible in a nutshell.