Were the Church Fathers Sent by God?

[Rich R]

Don't forget 1 Peter 2:9

But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;​

:)

A chosen generation, yes!

I did, but not anymore! Thanks.

 

[Rich R]

Don't forget 1 Peter 2:9

But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;​

:)

I didn't think of that one, but it sure says to talk it up! Thanks.

 

[Rich R]

Hi Rich, the apostle Paul was personally chosen by Jesus to be an apostle to the nations sir. Actually Jesus made a new covenant with his faithful apostles on the night of his death, and it went into force on Pentecost of that year. They would continue to be chosen and then anointed by holy spirit until their numbers would be fully selected, even into our day.

Well, I don't claim to be an Apostle, if that's what you're thinking. But I have a mouth and I know a little bit about the scriptures, enough to help someone who's suffering or in pain in this world anyway.

Eph 4:11-12,

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
​

These are the gifts God gives to the Church of Christ's body, of whom he is the head. Jesus is the head, nobody else, not me, not your Priest or Pastor, not even the Pope. At least if Colossians is right, and I think it is. :)

Col 1:18,

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
​

As I side note, the church, composed of both Jews and Gentiles (Eph 2:15), is called the Body. We are not the Bride. That would be the Jews, who will be gathered together from the four corners of the earth and marry Jesus when he returns. See Isaiah, Jeremiah, Revelation, and a few other places.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Barnabas is also called an apostle in the New Testament, but as far as NT referring to anyone else an apostle, Paul and Barnabas were the last. Church Fathers after the death of John made many mistakes.

Edit: Jesus is the one who appoints offices in the Church. He can speak to us today from the Holy Spirit and appoint these offices too. But the apostles received revelations that became scriptures. Appointed pastors and teachers merely rightly divide the Word of God written by the apostles that wrote canonized scripture. Personally, I believe that the Epistle of Barnabas is also scripture and was read in all the early churches as such. Seeing as Hebrews isn't signed by Paul, it is thought that Barnabas wrote Hebrews. I certainly got a lot out of it. And The Epistle of Barnabas was quoted in the Didache, The Teachings of the Twelve Apostles.

The great commission was given originally to the eleven Apostles after the resurrection.
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. 17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. Matthew 28:16-20
The uniqueness of the eleven was that they were "eye witnesses" to the works of Christ, His teaching, and His resurrection. Paul was commissioned with the gospel to the gentiles without having seen the Lord's ministry in the flesh, but met the resurrected Christ on the road to Damascus.

God commissions whom He wills, but we give great weight to the Apostles because of the great promises that Jesus made to them, even the promise to judge the tribes of Israel.
However, what the cults don't recognize is the great promises made to us all, and Jesus' own words to His disciples.

28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” John 20:28-29

They believed because of what they knew and what they witnessed, we believe because of what we've known and whom we've known, even the Lord Jesus Christ through His Spirit, the Spirit of Truth and our God. Amen.

The cults only have books and the Spirit of error.

 

[michaelvpardo]

The only “church fathers” I concern myself with are those in the Bible.

Everyone else are just men who must be tested by scripture alone.

While I'm inclined to agree with you regarding testing the words of anyone who teaches (as the Bereans verified the teaching of Paul), where in scripture is there a justification to test "men" by scripture? I'd just like to see specific passages that contradicts the teaching of the Apostle Paul. This would be deemed problematic at the very least.

4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 1 Corinthians 13:4-7

11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. Ephesians 4:11-16

Perhaps one will explain just when "till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God," was fulfilled either in or out of the church?

8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. 1 Corinthians 13:8-13

Who believes that the body of Christ is complete, and unified in maturity? Have we seen Christ "face to face?"

 

[Philip James]

Does it not "send" us all? I'm sure the Catholic tradition would disagree,

Hi Barney,

You would be incorrect about that. Indeed we call the Divine Liturgy 'Mass' because we are 'sent' out into the world to bring the love of Christ to all..

All are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Peace be with you!

 

[BarneyFife]

And there it is. Good to see you, as always, Philip! :);):cool:

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I'll go with anything anybody says so long as it does not contradict the scriptures.

For example, Athenasius says we must believe in the trinity to be saved. There is nowhere in the scriptures that says that. There are several places where the scriptures say how to be saved, but none come even close to saying we must believe the trinity.

How are we to know who God sent and who came on their own? I'm sure you know Paul warned the early church about false teachers. He even said everyone in Asia Minor turned against him. Surely we can't just believe anyone who says they are sent from God just because they say so. We must compare what others say against the scriptures to see if what they say is true or not, just as the Bereans did in Acts 17. They didn't even believe what Paul told them without searching the scriptures to verify.

Thanks for being open with your thoughts and opinions. It appears you are not easily swayed by what a denomination teaches over what the Bible actually says. That error is what I've seen a lot on these forums, and I'm sure you will notice it too. But my question for you is what if Athenasius is actually quoting what the Bible teaches? Are you going to remain staunch in what one narrow focused verse says about Jesus, and not take into consideration what the rest of scripture teaches about the rest?

Before the first century God's people had to believe in One God. That was the focus. Then the New Covenant came along and not only One God, but now that His Son was part of that One God that was hidden in the Old Testament, but was there. Jesus is the Messiah prophesied in Daniel 9:24-27. For instance, there would be those who believe in the Father as God, and that is all. They believe Jesus is not God. Others believe that God came to earth in the form of Jesus and Jesus is all. What is great is that God knows our hearts, and if you abide in Him He will make any crooked places straight. But we must be open to those changes when that light-bulb experience hits you in the forehead. I absolutely love those life changing experiences in full knowledge.

1 John 2:22-24
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.

One chapter I love for this discussion is this one about the Father and the Son. It is not a trinity proof chapter, but more of a we can be like just like Christ chapter and why we can be sinless and have the authority of many gifts that Jesus did while on earth. Anything He did, we are authorized to do the same in His name. That excites me that we have authority even over death, IF you know who you are in Christ.

John 17:
Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

 

[bbyrd009]

Were the Church Fathers Sent by God?

I know the wolves will rush in as soon as i leave, not sparing the flock

 

[Rich R]

Thanks for being open with your thoughts and opinions. It appears you are not easily swayed by what a denomination teaches over what the Bible actually says.

I appreciate your willingness to discuss this as a brother to a sister. Believe me, it all too often gets ugly really fast when discussing the nature of Jesus and God. I've been told many many times I'm not saved, that I walk in the dark, I'll burn for eternity, and more. It no longer bothers me, but it's still refreshing to meet someone who disagrees with me, yet remains loving.

Are you going to remain staunch in what one narrow focused verse says about Jesus, and not take into consideration what the rest of scripture teaches about the rest

Well, it is never a good idea to base a theology on one verse. You're right about that. But I've actually quoted many verses that would make it impossible for Jesus to be God. I've shown that:

• God knew things Jesus didn't know
  
• God is greater than Jesus
• God is the head of Jesus,
• Jesus will be subjected to God
• Jesus has a God
• Jesus was tempted whereas God can not be tempted
• Jesus had a different will than God
• Jesus received power from God (God just has power, nobody gave it to Him)
• God granted Jesus the power to judge (again, nobody grants God anything)
• Jesus always did and spoke what God told him to do and speak (who tells Hod what to do or say?)
• that Jesus was created a lower than the angels.

There are many other verses that I quoted, but I would think the phrase, "Son of God," would be enough for anyone to understand they are two distinctly different persons (just like any other father and his son). Where do we get any indications that God changed the meaning of those words?

I also gave at least 6 verses that explicitly call Jesus a man vs. the zero times he is explicitly called God.

1 John 2:22-24
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father

I've never said Jesus wasn't anointed (Christ = "the anointed one). If Jesus was God, who anointed God? He must be even bigger than YHWY.

John 17:
Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

I've often said that there are some verses that could be taken in a Trinitarian. However, most verses used to prove the trinity actually say nothing of the sort, including John 17. In fact, John 17 is a beautiful prayer of a son to his Father. Normally when someone prays to God it is quite clear there are two people involved, the one praying and the one to whom they pray. What makes John 17 any different? It, as do most Trinity proof verses, actually scream two different people.

As to the few that maybe could indicate a trinity, I've said either we make the many clear verses fit with those not totally clear verses or the other way around. I simply don't know how to do the latter. It's soooo much easier to make the few unclear verses fit with the many
clear verses.

All we need to do is read what's written without injecting preconceived ideas. I don't know how to say it any other way.

Again, thank you for your kind consideration, despite our different views. You are a rarity for sure! I love you as a wonderful child of God!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I've often said that there are some verses that could be taken in a Trinitarian. However, most verses used to prove the trinity actually say nothing of the sort, including John 17.

Which I already said it is not a proof text for the Trinity.

One chapter I love for this discussion is this one about the Father and the Son. It is not a trinity proof chapter, but more of a we can be like just like Christ chapter and why we can be sinless and have the authority of many gifts that Jesus did while on earth. Anything He did, we are authorized to do the same in His name. That excites me that we have authority even over death, IF you know who you are in Christ.

"Denying" Jesus has nothing to do with believing He is God or not. JW's do not deny Jesus. You still believe that only through Jesus can you be saved. He is your Savior. He is the Son of God.

Oneness Pentecostals is the other group that I thought you could be, not knowing who you emphasized as God. Neither organization denies Jesus, so I don't have a problem with either group unlike others you've come across.

 

[Rich R]

Which I already said it is not a proof text for the Trinity.



"Denying" Jesus has nothing to do with believing He is God or not. JW's do not deny Jesus. You still believe that only through Jesus can you be saved. He is your Savior. He is the Son of God.

Oneness Pentecostals is the other group that I thought you could be, not knowing who you emphasized as God. Neither organization denies Jesus, so I don't have a problem with either group unlike others you've come across.

I guess I misunderstood you a wee bit. Sorry about that. :)

I'm not a JW, a Oneness Pentecostal, or any thing that I know of. I'm just a little 'ol son of God!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I guess I misunderstood you a wee bit. Sorry about that. :)

I'm not a JW, a Oneness Pentecostal, or any thing that I know of. I'm just a little 'ol son of God!

Well that is good to know. I know of another member here who talks like a Seventh-day Adventist, but is not. LOL You do talk like a JW. And I talk like a Word of Faith Pentecostal, but am not. Basically, I listen to God's voice, and believe what He tells me, and He has gifted me with many of the gifts of the Spirit that I use.

I was in my 40's when I read a verse that showed me that Jesus was God. I was surprised, because that was not in my beliefs to that point. It is in Titus. I even wrote in the border "Jesus is God!!!" I wish I had dated it like I used to do.

 

[bbyrd009]

I wish I had dated it like I used to do.

so you could document when you went astray?

 

[BarneyFife]

I know of another member here who talks like a Seventh-day Adventist, but is not.

Well, I'm a Seventh-day Adventist, and I don't know whether it's a good thing to be perceived as talking like one or not! -lol.

Hit, there, 1CL. Haven't seen ya for a while.

For what it's worth (probably not much), it's been my experience that no good can come from discussion of the nature of the Godhead. I'm becoming more and more convinced that it falls under the "doubtful disputations" category of Romans 14:1. Of course, it goes without saying that all are welcome to speak freely. I know that this subject is considered to be essential to salvation for some folks. However, just sayin': Word to the wise...

On the other hand, I've lately experienced a strong conviction that it's infinitely important for me to behave so as not to hinder a person's ability to calmly, informedly, and with perfect liberty make decisions pertaining to faith and morals.

Yes, I've been spreading the good news of religious liberty recently, and since we've already gone off-topic, why not?

A missionary friend of mine told me a story about a young lad being brought to a college at which he was teaching. The young man's parents basically dropped him off and told my friend that the boy had spiritual problems which included addiction to digital gadgets and profane music and announced that it was the college's duty to confiscate his device(s).

My friend informed the parents in no uncertain terms that they would not be responsible in any way for limiting his digital activity in principle, apart from the limitations already in place in the school's rules, which did not include confiscating devices without just cause. The parents expressed their vehement disapproval, but left the young man there, nevertheless, not intending to deal with the problem themselves, basically washing their hands of him, at least, for the time being.

My friend then had a long talk with the young man, finally telling him that the school was primarily a place for young people to come and grow spiritually and that he was in for a potentially rough time because the school had rules and requirements that, frankly, would not likely suit him at all.

But he suggested a plan: The boy could stay and try to adapt to the rules and see if he thought he could gain anything from the experience the school offered and if, at the end of one week, he felt it was not for him, my friend would arrange for him to settle somewhere other than his parents home since he was of age and the prospect of having to go back home would factor too much into his decision. My friend was trying to open up the boy's freedom to make a calm, informed, and unincumbered decision. The young man decided to stay, and thrived in his new environment. True story.

My friend included this story in a 6-part series on Toleration, Liberty, and Personal Freedom.

Listening to it has had a profound impact on how I'm striving to conduct myself toward others.

The End

:)

 

[1stCenturyLady]

so you could document when you went astray?

No, just the opposite. The date when I received the revelation from God.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Well, I'm a Seventh-day Adventist, and I don't know whether it's a good thing to be perceived as talking like one or not! -lol.

Hit, there, 1CL. Haven't seen ya for a while.

For what it's worth (probably not much), it's been my experience that no good can come from discussion of the nature of the Godhead. I'm becoming more and more convinced that it falls under the "doubtful disputations" category of Romans 14:1. Of course, it goes without saying that all are welcome to speak freely. I know that this subject is considered to be essential to salvation. However, just sayin': Word to the wise...

On the other hand, I've lately experienced a strong conviction that it's infinitely important for me to behave so as not to hinder a person's ability to calmly, informedly, and with perfect liberty make decisions pertaining to faith and morals.

Yes, I've been spreading the good news of religious liberty recently, and since we've already gone off-topic, why not?

A missionary friend of mine told me a story about a young lad being brought to a college at which he was teaching. The young man's parents basically dropped him off and told my friend that the boy had spiritual problems which included addiction to digital gadgets and profane music and announced that it was the college's duty to confiscate his device(s).

My friend informed the parents in no uncertain terms that they would not be responsible in any way for limiting his digital activity in principle, apart from the limitations already in place in the school's rules, which did not include confiscating devices without just cause. The parents expressed their vehement disapproval, but left the young man there, nevertheless, not intending to deal with the problem themselves, basically washing their hands of him, at least, for the time being.

My friend then had a long talk with the young man, finally telling him that the school was primarily a place for young people to come and grow spiritually and that he was in for a potentially rough time because the school had rules and requirements that, frankly, would not likely suit him at all.

But he suggested a plan: The boy could stay and try to adapt to the rules and see if he thought he could gain anything from the experience the school offered and if, at the end of one week, he felt it was not for him, my friend would arrange for him to settle somewhere other than his parents home since he was of age and the prospect of having to go back home would factor too much into his decision. My friend was trying to open up the boy's freedom to make a calm, informed, and unincumbered decision. The young man decided to stay, and thrived in his new environment. True story.

My friend included this story in a 6-part series on Toleration, Liberty, and Personal Freedom.

Listening to it has had a profound impact on how I'm striving to conduct myself toward others.

The End

:)

Hi Barn, you said,

I know that this subject is considered to be essential to salvation.

What is the SDA denomination teaching on this subject? I know I didn't know that Jesus was God until about 20 years after I left SDA. What do you believe about whether Jesus is God or not? Or do you just believe He is the Son of God and leave it at that?

As I recall, they were not opposed to the Trinity. What do you know now?

Your pal, Linda

 

[bbyrd009]

No, just the opposite. The date when I received the revelation from God.

ha ok

 

[bbyrd009]

What God is and what God is not
“But in the Bible the words theos and eloah are equivalent to the whole pagan pantheon, not just one element of that pantheon…”

 

[BarneyFife]

Hi Barn, you said,



What is the SDA denomination teaching on this subject? I know I didn't know that Jesus was God until about 20 years after I left SDA. What do you believe about whether Jesus is God or not? Or do you just believe He is the Son of God and leave it at that?

As I recall, they were not opposed to the Trinity. What do you know now?

Your pal, Linda

Pal Linda,

They are definitely not opposed to the Trinity.

It is only implied in the baptismal vows, but there is an alternative, ironically shorter set of vows that pastors preparing candidates may use at their discretion which obligates the candidate to affirm the "28 Fundamental Beliefs" which specify Trinitarianism in some detail.

Anyhow, this is the most up-to-date info I can find at the moment. I'm open to correction.

In this spot, I've been trying for several hours to express what I believe about the Godhead. I can't think of anything that seems intelligent.

It doesn't seem so unorthodox to me to admit:

Job 11:7 KJV: Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection?

Sorry, I guess this isn't much of an answer(?)

(I go by "Alan" but it'll probably be easier for you to remember "Barn." Either way's fine with me. )

:)