The many errors and contradictions found in Amillennialism.

[Zao is life]

The Revelation 20:5 "dead" mean the SPIRITUALLY DEAD, not dead flesh waiting it out in the ground.

One of the most ugly FALSE TEACHINGS is the false belief that when we die we literally go into 'soul sleep' and must wait until the resurrection to be awakened, and our flesh in the ground is then raised. That is actually an OLD doctrine of the Old Testament Jews. It is what Judaism believes. They believe the 'soul' is part of material flesh. It is NOT!

While you are re-writing the Bible, you need to rewrite Genesis 2. Adam became a living soul when God breathed spiritual life into him.

John 3
3 Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born from above [Greek: ἄνωθεν ánōthen], he cannot see the kingdom of God.

7 Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born from above [ἄνωθεν ánōthen].

Let's look at what Jesus said about spiritual birth:

00509 ἄνωθεν ánōthen, an'-o-then
from 507;
from above; by analogy, from the first; by implication, anew:--from above, again, from the beginning (very first), the top.

John 3:6-8
That which is born [gennáō] of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born [gennáō] of the Spirit [pneûma] is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born from above [ánōthen]. The Spirit [pneûma]] breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice, but you do not know from where He comes, and where He goes; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

Many Christians assert that when we are born into the world, we are born spiritually dead, but this is impossible. If we are born spiritually dead, when did our Spirit die? Before we were born? Or at some point after we were born?

Adam was not created "spiritually dead". He was created with a body and soul. He was not a biological robot. After Adam was created, the Spirit (breath) of God breathed (eternal) spiritual life into Adam, and he became a living soul (Genesis 2:7).

We are born into the world with a body and soul. If we had no soul we would be biological robots. But we were born of the Spirit when God breathed (eternal) life into us.

When Adam sinned, he lost the source of spiritual life, and ever since, whoever is born into the world, is born without (eternal) spiritual life and must be born of the Spirit from above in order to 'see' (know, experience) the Kingdom of God. This does not mean that Adam did not have a soul when he was created. He became a living soul when God breathed (eternal) life into him.

When it comes to resurrection on the other hand, without exception ALL New Testament verses mentioning (the) Resurrection are unambiguously talking only about the resurrection of the body (Greek: σῶμα sōma) from the dead.

The Greek word psychḗ is used interchangeably in the New Testament in reference to the life, the mind and the soul of an individual or of individuals, for example:

The mind:-

Philippians 1
27 Only let your conduct be as becomes the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you, or else am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit [pneûma], striving together with one mind [psychḗ] for the faith of the gospel.

Hebrews 12
3 For consider Him who endured such contradiction of sinners against Himself, lest you be weary and faint in your minds [psychḗ].
The life:

Matthew 2
20 saying, Arise, and take the child and His mother. And go into the land of Israel. For the ones who sought the child's life [psychḗ] are dead.

Matthew 6
25 Therefore I say to you, Do not be anxious for your life [psychḗ], what you shall eat, or what you shall drink; nor for your body, what you shall put on. Is not life [psychḗ] more than food, and the body more than clothing?

Matthew 10
39 He who finds his life [psychḗ] shall lose it. And he who loses his life [psychḗ] for My sake shall find it.

The soul:

Matthew 10:28
28 And do not fear those who kill the body [sōma], but are not able to kill the soul [psychḗ]. But rather fear Him who can destroy both soul [psychḗ] and body [sōma] in géenna.

Isaiah 42
1 Behold My Servant, whom I uphold; My Elect, in whom My soul {Hebrew: nephesh] delights. I have put My Spirit [Hebrew: rûach] on Him; He shall bring out judgment to the nations.

Isaiah 42:1 is repeated in Matthew:

Matthew 12
18 "Behold My servant whom I have chosen; My Beloved, in whom My soul [psychḗ] is well pleased. I will put My Spirit [pneûma] on Him, and He shall declare judgment to the nations.

1 Thessalonians 5
23 And may the God of peace Himself sanctify you, and may your whole spirit [pneûma] and soul [psychḗ] and body [sōma] be preserved blameless to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4
12 For the word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing apart of soul [psychḗ] and spirit [pneûma], and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

So the New Testament uses the Greek word psychḗ in reference to the life, the mind and the soul of an individual or of individuals. But we do not have (eternal) spiritual life until the Spirit of God breathes His life into us. No one born into the world ever died spiritually, We were never alive spiritually to begin with.

 

[Zao is life]

As you are aware, the Three concepts of thought, concerning "a thousand years" are: Amillenialism, Premillennialism and Postmillennialism.

It is evident, that we are definitely discussing only two concepts of thought here, of how "a thousand years" is to be interpreted and applied, being that of Premillennialism vs. Amillennialism.

For the sake of argument, I am only focussing on two of the three concepts of "a thousand years", which drives and directs our understanding for either of the two belief systems, for an understanding of what God means by "a thousand years".
Premillennialism
1. A literal period of a thousand years after Jesus returns, for Him to reign ON the earth WITH His chosen saints, OVER unsaved people.

Amillennialism:
2. A symbolic period of a thousand years before Jesus returns, for Him to reign WITHIN the earth of His chosen saints, AMONG unsaved people.

In concept #1, the book of Revelation is being applied, in order to interpret all the NT scriptures.

In concept #2, all the NT scriptures are being applied, in order to interpret the book of Revelation.

I've noticed that Amillennialists adhere to Amillennialism because this is what they want to believe.

For me, I neither want to believe the millennium is literal, nor do I want to believe it's symbolic, but I do want to believe what the New Testament teaches about it, and when the New Testament is applied, it interprets the thousand years literally.

Unlike Amillennialists, I do not need to have God explaining or giving reasons for why He has ordained things the way He has ordained them. I simply accept the facts. I do not ask for example why Satan was not bound and not permitted to beguile Eve in the Garden in the first place, or why he was not bound after the flood, or after the destruction of Babylon, or after the cross. I do not ask why, even though death and hades, and Satan's works and his power over death and hades have been destroyed by the death and resurrection of Christ, yet Satan, death and hades have not yet been thrown into the lake of fire.

Amillennialists seem to need to have everything explained or they will not believe the New Testament's teaching on the millennium.

 

[Earburner]

So was their 'spirit-soul' spiritually born again when they believed, even though many of those had to wait while dead to hear The Gospel of Jesus Christ? Well, Yeah!

Those who were of faith, under the OC., their names were written in the book of remembrance (Malachi 3:16). But THEN AFTER Jesus' blood was shed for the remission of sin, on Pentecost the Holy Spirit was given to them who were under that altar. It was only until after the shed Blood of Jesus, could it be that God's Holy Spirit can take up permanent residence within anyone.

 

[Earburner]

I'm sure you wouldn't want Premillennialism to define Amillennialism. You are wrong above.

In concept #1, all relevant scriptures from the OT and NT are used to form a correct exegesis of said scriptures. Concept #2 does not do that.

As I had previously posted:
Premillennialism:
1. A literal period of a thousand years after Jesus returns, for Him to reign ON the earth WITH His chosen saints, OVER unsaved people.

Amillennialism:
2. A symbolic period of a thousand years before Jesus returns, for Him to reign WITHIN the earth of His chosen saints, AMONG unsaved people.

In concept #1, the book of Revelation is being applied, in order to interpret all the NT scriptures.

In concept #2, all the NT scriptures are being applied, in order to interpret the book of Revelation.

> Concept #2 surely does do that!!
Amillennialists see that ALL of the OT prophecies, concerning Jesus and His first appearance, were fulfilled.
Therefore, any other prophecies, that were about Israel, they are now dysfunctional, and shall not perform anything that was promised by God for them. When the KoG was taken from them, so also went away the promises of God towards them.
There are no OT prophecies waiting to be fulfilled in the nation of Israel. So therefore, the Amillennialist sees no need to study it any further, or combine and blend it with Revelation.

Remember, our salvation unto the Day of redemption, is a two stage process.
A. We are to be born again first, and receive His Gift of Eternal Life.
B. Then we are to wait for His Glorious return, to be resurrected into Jesus' likeness of immortality.

 

[Davy]

The only two places in scripture where being killed for refusal to worship the beast or his image or receive his mark is written about, is in Revelation 13:14-18 and Revelation 20:4-6.

The Revelation 20:4 verse is about the Old Testament saints that were martyred also. You missed those in Revelation 6 with the 5th Seal...

Rev 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
KJV

Those were saints that were martyred before... the great tribulation start.

 

[Davy]

While you are re-writing the Bible, you need to rewrite Genesis 2. Adam became a living soul when God breathed spiritual life into him.
....

I am not re-writing The Bible. I am covering Scripture which YOU DENY. Anyone listening to you won't even realize part of The Bible is missing... in your teaching FROM THE JEW'S RELIGION.

It is the JEWS who push the 'dead in the ground' Soul Sleep theories, and their crept in unawares within the Christian Church.

When Jesus said in John 3 that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit, that SEALED the fact that our flesh body is NOT of spirit and visa versa.

Yet the JEWS say that when a person's flesh dies, their soul dies with it! That is FALSE, and Jesus showed that idea is false in Matthew 10:28, because He showed the soul continues even after death of the flesh body.

And YOU have the audacity to falsely claim I'm re-writing The Bible, you Judaizer fake?

 

[Zao is life]

The Revelation 20:4 verse is about the Old Testament saints that were martyred also. You missed those in Revelation 6 with the 5th Seal...

Rev 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
KJV

Those were saints that were martyred before... the great tribulation start.

The souls under the altar is all the saints who were ever martyred before the final group who would be martyred, and Revelation 20 only mentions that final group. It does not say one word about all the other saints who will be resurrected at the time of Christ's return. Even though we may use conjecture, imagination and guess-work to add any others, they are not mentioned there. So if you and I die before the beast ascends out of the bottomless pit, we are not included in what Revelation 20 says.

 

[Zao is life]

Concept #2 surely does do that!!
Amillennialists see that ALL of the OT prophecies, concerning Jesus and His first appearance, were fulfilled.
Therefore, any other prophecies, that were about Israel, they are now dysfunctional, and shall not perform anything that was promised by God for them. When the KoG was taken from them, so also went away the promises of God towards them.
There are no OT prophecies waiting to be fulfilled in the nation of Israel. So therefore, the Amillennialist sees no need to study it any further, or combine and blend it with Revelation.

Nice try to equate Premillennialism with Dispensationlism and all Premillennialists with Dispensationalists but it fails as all your other arguments do. Pre-millennialism is way over a thousand years older than Darby and Dispensationalism. You should read up on Classic (historic) Premillennialism.

Israel = the Church, i.e those who are in Christ through faith in Christ, and the millennium is literal.

@Earburner

The following ECF supported Premillennialism: Papias,Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Pseudo-Barnabas, Methodius, Lactantius, Commodianus, Theophilus, Melito,Hippolytus of Rome, Victorinus of Pettau, Nepos, Julius Africanus, Tatian.

Also Montanus, but he was a heretic, and because of his heresy, premillennialism was later rejected in the (Catholic) Church.

Modern proponents of historic premillennialism include Baptists, Presbyterians, the Christian and Missionary Alliance, and several Evangelical groups.

Historic premilllennialists like myself do not view anyone - Jew or Gentile - who does not believe in Christ as part of Christ's Kingdom, and I view Old Testament prophecies in terms of being fulfilled in the New Heavens and New Earth.

The only city Revelation calls the holy city, is New Jerusalem: The word holy in the biblical sense means “set apart unto God” or “consecrated unto God”.

There is no city mentioned in the Revelation other than:-

(i) New Jerusalem; and

(ii) Babylon the Great, or the city"spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." (Revelation 11:8).

There is no verse in the Revelation where Babylon the Great is called "the holy city", but the Revelation calls New Jerusalem the holy city three times:- Revelation 21:2; Revelation 21:10; and Revelation 22:19.

* Revelation 11:2 is talking about the holy city.

* The other city referred to in Revelation chapter 11, is referred to as a city that is "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." (Revelation 11:8).

Here are all the verses in the New Testament referring to the holy city:-

(i) Before the tearing of the veil:

Matthew 4:5 Then the Devil took Him up into the holy city and set Him upon a pinnacle of the Temple.

(ii) After the tearing of the veil:

Matthew 27:53 After His resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

(iii) The four remaining references to the holy city are in the Revelation (already mentioned above).

I do not believe the throne of Christ is in an earthly Jerusalem or ever will be. It's in New Jerusalem. I do not believe in a physical temple.

The words the holy place speak of the sanctuary or the place of the holy presence of God. The Greek New Testament employs the word naós in reference to the holy place, and the word hierón in reference to the physical structure (the entire temple complex) of the temple in Jerusalem.

* The last time the word naós is used in reference to the temple in Jerusalem, is in the verses which talk about the tearing of the veil (Matthew 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45). After this, the first time the word is used again, is in Acts:

Acts 7:48a
But, the Most High does not dwell in temples (Greek: naos) made with hands.

Acts 17:24
The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of Heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples (Greek naos) made with hands.

Compare the above two verses with:

Hebrews 9
24 For Christ has not entered into the Holy of Holies made with (human) hands, which are the figures of the true, but into Heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.

After the verses talking about the tearing of the veil, in the New Testament the word naos is ONLY used in reference to:-

i. The bodies of believers as a temple; and
ii. The church as the temple; and
iii. the temple in heaven: *

* Except for Acts 19:24, where the word naos is referring not to the church, but to shrines made for the goddess Diana).

Christ is the temple of God in the New Jerusalem. I do not believe God is going to go back to the Old Testament in the millennium.

So nice try but you failed again because you misrepresented what Premillennialism is.

 

[Zao is life]

I am not re-writing The Bible. I am covering Scripture which YOU DENY. Anyone listening to you won't even realize part of The Bible is missing... in your teaching FROM THE JEW'S RELIGION.

It is the JEWS who push the 'dead in the ground' Soul Sleep theories, and their crept in unawares within the Christian Church.

When Jesus said in John 3 that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit, that SEALED the fact that our flesh body is NOT of spirit and visa versa.

Yet the JEWS say that when a person's flesh dies, their soul dies with it! That is FALSE, and Jesus showed that idea is false in Matthew 10:28, because He showed the soul continues even after death of the flesh body.

And YOU have the audacity to falsely claim I'm re-writing The Bible, you Judaizer fake?

Do you even know what 'soul-sleep' means?

I do not push soul-sleep, and I never, ever have. Soul-sleep is the belief that there is no consciousness after physical death.

I believe what Paul wrote in Philippians 1:21-26. You may have your own religious ideas about what happens to Christians when they die physically but my view is the traditional Christian view, and it's Biblical.

Of Christians, the New Testament states:

"(God) hath raised us up together,
and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus"
(Ephesians 2:6)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ"
(Ephesians 1:3)

While the apostle Paul was still alive, he wrote to the Christians in Philippi, expressing the desire, concerning these Christians and this church which he established, that he "shall be ashamed in nothing, but as always now Christ shall be magnified in my body with all boldness, whether it is by life or by death."

To which Paul added,

"For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labor. Yet I do not know what I shall choose. For I am pressed together by the two: having a desire to depart and to be with Christ, which is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more needful for you." (Philippians 1:20-24).

In another letter, written to a different congregation of Christians in another place, Paul wrote,

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

For indeed in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our dwelling-place out of Heaven; if indeed in being clothed, we shall not be found naked.

For we who are in this tabernacle groan, being burdened; inasmuch as we do not wish to be unclothed, but to be clothed, so that the mortal might be swallowed up by the life.

And He who has worked in us for this same thing is God, who also is giving to us the earnest (guarantee) of the (Holy) Spirit. Then being always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body, we are away from home from the Lord; for we walk by faith, not by sight; then we are confident and we are pleased rather to go away from home out of the body, and to come home to the Lord.

Therefore we are also laboring to be well-pleasing to Him, whether at home or away from home." (2 Corinthians 5:1-9).

Nevertheless, until the resurrection, Christians cannot be found in heaven bodily (the way Jesus is, and the way Enoch and Elijah are) - but Christ is risen.

ABRAHAM'S BOSOM

Jesus' parable of Lazarus and the rich man suggests that those who believed in God and His Word, and who died before the time that Christ died for our sins and rose again from the dead, were found in "Abraham's bosom" after death. But Paul's words suggest that those who are in Christ through faith in Christ (who is the last Adam), will be found in "Christ's bosom" after death, resting and waiting for the resurrection of the body - and He (Christ) is in heaven.

Note: "Christ's bosom" is not a term found in the Bible, but Christ is said to be "in the bosom of the Father" in John 1:18; and He said to those who believe in Him,

"At that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you." John 14;20

And praying to the Father for His disciples, Jesus said,

"I in them, and You in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

 

[Davy]

Those who were of faith, under the OC., their names were written in the book of remembrance (Malachi 3:16). But THEN AFTER Jesus' blood was shed for the remission of sin, on Pentecost the Holy Spirit was given to them who were under that altar. It was only until after the shed Blood of Jesus, could it be that God's Holy Spirit can take up permanent residence within anyone.

So you are saying... that book of remembrance is the Book of Life, even though the Book of Life ONLY came into effect when Jesus died on the cross with those of Faith on God's Gospel Promise? That is confusion of supplanting the old covenant with The New Covenant Jesus Christ, and does not work!

 

[Davy]

The souls under the altar is all the saints who were ever martyred before the final group who would be martyred, and Revelation 20 only mentions that final group.

You miss-read the Revelation 20:4 verse...

Rev 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
KJV

See all those 'and' conjunctions? Some were martyred for The Word of God only. Who would that be? The saints that were beheaded BEFORE Jesus died on the cross. Those will be of that "first resurrection" also, and reign with Jesus over the nations during that future "thousand years" period.

 

[Davy]

When it comes to resurrection on the other hand, without exception ALL New Testament verses mentioning (the) Resurrection are unambiguously talking only about the resurrection of the body (Greek: σῶμα sōma) from the dead.

That above kind of thinking is where many are led into error with misinterpreting that 'body' to mean a flesh body.

Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 showed clearly that body is NOT about a FLESH BODY being resurrected.

One more time by Paul...

1 Cor 15:50
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

What is already in the casket, stays... in the casket. Our flesh is not raised like Jesus' flesh body was.

 

[Zao is life]

You miss-read the Revelation 20:4 verse...

Rev 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
KJV

See all those 'and' conjunctions? Some were martyred for The Word of God only. Who would that be? The saints that were beheaded BEFORE Jesus died on the cross. Those will be of that "first resurrection" also, and reign with Jesus over the nations during that future "thousand years" period.

So even if John the Baptist for example will be among them, unless you and I die by being beheaded due to the same reasons given why they were beheaded, it's not talking about us. There will be billions of saints resurrected. Only those chosen few will be reigning with Christ a thousand years, and we are not given any more details except that Satan will be bound for a thousand years. There's far too much adding to the narrative using imagination and conjecture, and scriptures that don't even belong there, IMO.

 

[Zao is life]

That above kind of thinking is where many are led into error with misinterpreting that 'body' to mean a flesh body.

Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 showed clearly that body is NOT about a FLESH BODY being resurrected.

One more time by Paul...

1 Cor 15:50
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

What is already in the casket, stays... in the casket. Our flesh is not raised like Jesus' flesh body was.

I disagree. I think Paul made it abundantly clear that this flesh body will be sown in corruption and raised an incorruptible body. Sown as flesh-and-blood and raised a spiritual body, but I will leave it there because I can see you're not convinced by the way I understand the resurrection (which is historically the way most of the church has always understood the resurrection, the Amilllennialist 'spiritual regeneration' application of the word anastasis in Revelation 20 aside).

 

[Zao is life]

That [below] kind of thinking is where many are led into error with misinterpreting that 'body' to mean a flesh body.

Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 showed clearly that body is NOT about a FLESH BODY being resurrected.

One more time by Paul...

1 Cor 15:50
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

What is already in the casket, stays... in the casket. Our flesh is not raised like Jesus' flesh body was.

JESUS' AND HIS APOSTLES' DOCTRINE OF THE RESURRECTION ​

@Earburner
The Noun: ἀνάστασις anástasis ("the resurrection")
Verbs *:-
ἐγείρω egeírō: To rise again or to waken (literally, from sleep, from sitting or lying, from disease, or from death)
ἀνίστημι anístēmi: To stand up (literal or figurative, transitive or intransitive): rise again, arise, lift up, raise up (again)
ἔγερσις égersis: a resurgence (from death): resurrection.

* The verbs are sometimes employed for normal use, for example as in "Rise up! Let's go!", but the noun is always talking about the resurrection of the body, the resurrection from the dead.

συνεγείρω (synegeírō): Risen with Christ: When syn appears prefixed to egeírō (synegeírō), it shows that the resurrection of the individual believer in Christ is something which occurs with Christ's resurrection. It's the same prefix we get with words like synthesis and synchronize.

ἀπαρχή aparchḗ (first-fruits)
κοιμάω koimáō (sleep in death)
ζωοποιέω zōopoiéō (vitalize, re-vitalize,give life, quicken)
ἔπειτα épeita (afterward)
παρουσία parousía (appearance of Christ at his return)
σῶμα sōma (the body)

Jesus teaching on the resurrection: John 6:39, 40 & 44' John 11:23-25.
Paul's doctrine regarding the resurrection of the dead: 1 Corinthians 15:4; 12-23, 35-36, 42-45, 50-57

Here are the rest:

Matthew 22:23; Matthew 22:30; Matthew 22:31; Mark 12:18; Mark 12:23; Mark 12:26; Luke 20:27; Luke 20:33; Luke 20:35-36; Matthew 22:28; Matthew 27:52-53; Matthew 10:8; Matthew 11:5; Luke 7:22; Luke 7:14; Matthew 17:9; Matthew 20:19; Matthew 9:25; Luke 8:54; Matthew 14:2; Matthew 16:21; Luke 9:22; Matthew 17:23; Matthew 26:32; Mark 14:28; Matthew 27:63-64; Matthew 28:6-7; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:6; Luke 24:34; Mark 16:14; Mark 6:14, Mark 6:16; Luke 9:7; Luke 14:13-14; Luke 20:37; John 2:19-21; John 5:21; John 12:1, John 12:9; John 12:17; John 5:28-29; John 21:14; Acts 1:22; Acts 2:24; Acts 2:31-32; Acts 3:15; Acts 3:26; Acts 4:1-2; Acts 4:10; Acts 4:33; Acts 5:30; Acts 10:40; Acts 13:30; Acts 13:33-37; Acts 17:18, Acts 17:31-32; Acts 23:6-8; Acts 24:15; Acts 24:21; Acts 26:8; Romans 1:4; Romans 4:23-25; Romans 6:4-5; Romans 6:9; Romans 7:4; Romans 8:11; Romans 8:34; Romans 10:9; 1 Corinthians 6:14; 2 Corinthians 1:9; 2 Corinthians 4:14; 2 Corinthians 5:15; Galatians 1:1; Ephesians 1:20; Ephesians 2:5-6; Ephesians 5:14; Philippians 3:10-11; Colossians 2:12-13; Colossians 3:1 (Compare with Romans 6:5); 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16; 2 Timothy 2:8; 2 Timothy 2:16-18; Hebrews 6:1-2; Hebrews 11:35; 1 Peter 1:3-5; 1 Peter 1:21; 1 Peter 3:18; 1 Peter 3:21;

Not one of the verses is not talking about the resurrection of the body. Not one.

The above scriptures were not written by me and nowhere does my post claim that the body of flesh and blood will be raised a body of flesh and blood but Paul makes it abundantly clear that the flesh and blood body that is sown in the earth when it dies and is buried is the seed that will be changed into an immortal, incorruptible non-flesh-and-blood (spiritual) body.

I don't know why you keep implying or falsely accusing me of saying something I never said.

I quoted all the scriptures talking about resurrection. They are all referring to the body that is sown in the earth that is raised a spiritual (i.e non flesh-and-blood) body as per Paul in 1 Corinthians 15.

How you interpret or misinterpret the teaching of Paul and the apostles is something I have no control over. My post was only to quote the scriptures penned by the apostles about the resurrection to prove to Amillennialists that the word anastasis in Revelation 20:5-6 is not referring to the spiritual regeneration that takes place at the time of spiritual birth by the Spirit.

Again, how you choose to change the plain and literal meaning of what Paul is saying is not in my control. But I understand what he is saying, and nowhere did I imply that he is not speaking of anything except the flesh-and-blood body being the seed sown into the earth that is raised a new type of non-flesh-and-blood body.

@Davy Added: If you choose to change the meaning of what Paul was saying to mean a body other than the flesh-and-blood body that was sown into the earth in death and raised a non-flesh-and-blood (spiritual) body then that's something I have no control over. But I know what Paul was saying, and I don't try to change it

It would be good if you don't falsely claim or imply that I've said anything except what Paul said in the verses I list, but whether it's you falsely accusing me of pushing soul-sleep and being a Judaizer or what you falsely imply above, I also have no control over.

 

[Davy]

So even if John the Baptist for example will be among them, unless you and die by being beheaded due to the same reasons given why they were beheaded, it's not talking about us. There will be billions of saints resurrected. Only those chosen few will be reigning with Christ a thousand years, and we are not given any more details except that Satan will be bound for a thousand years. There's far too much adding to the narrative using imagination and conjecture, and scriptures that don't even belong there, IMO.

Where in the world are you getting all that false reasoning? Read the Revelation 20:4 verse and 'rightly divide' it.

Rev 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
KJV

1. "the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus" = those who died for Christ and were beheaded, all the way from Christ's 1st coming to the end of this world.

2. "and for the word of God" = ALL those who were persecuted for The Word of God, not necessarily having been beheaded. This can be about any of God's chosen elect from OT times all the way to the end of this world.

3. "and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands" = only those during the great tribulation.

Thusly, that verse is NOT ALL about those being beheaded. I don't know who keeps pushing that false idea that they all are either about saints during the tribulation, or saints only that are beheaded.

 

[Zao is life]

Where in the world are you getting all that false reasoning? Read the Revelation 20:4 verse and 'rightly divide' it.

Rev 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
KJV

1. "the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus" = those who died for Christ and were beheaded, all the way from Christ's 1st coming to the end of this world.

2. "and for the word of God" = ALL those who were persecuted for The Word of God, not necessarily having been beheaded. This can be about any of God's chosen elect from OT times all the way to the end of this world.

3. "and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands" = only those during the great tribulation.

Thusly, that verse is NOT ALL about those being beheaded. I don't know who keeps pushing that false idea that they all are either about saints during the tribulation, or saints only that are beheaded.

You've made it obvious now that you are the one who's adding through conjecture saints from other epochs or ages. But I don't do that. I stick to the text. The text does not say anything that suggests we need to go using conjecture and other scripture talking about different things or other saints in other epochs to the narrative.

So you divide the word as you will, but I'll continue to believe only what is written, and nothing more.

@Davy It's telling that when you quoted the text, you left out this part:

"..and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands."

We can argue until the cows come home whether what comes after "..and.." is referring to a different group of saints than what the first part of the verse is referring to. Still won't make what you have decided "fact". It's only conjecture.

 

[Davy]

I disagree. I think Paul made it abundantly clear that this flesh body will be sown in corruption and raised an incorruptible body. Sown as flesh-and-blood and raised a spiritual body, but I will leave it there because I can see you're not convinced by the way I understand the resurrection (which is historically the way most of the church has always understood the resurrection, the Amilllennialist 'spiritual regeneration' application of the word anastasis in Revelation 20 aside).

Nah..., Apostle Paul did NOT teach that it is our flesh that is raised at the resurrection.

1 Cor 15:37
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
KJV

1 Cor 15:42-45
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

Notice Paul says the "It" is what is sown, not a flesh body being sown. In verse 38 Paul said God has given it a body of its own. The "It" is being sown INTO a flesh body per Paul. Likewise, that "it" is what is raised in incorruption, not the flesh body, which he explains later...

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Paul makes the distinction there at present, right now, there exists both a "natural body' (flesh), and a "spiritual body". The "It" is sown in corruption into a flesh body, but "It" is raised to a "spiritual body". This Paul also shows in the 2 Corinthians 5:1-5 Scripture.

45 And so it is written, 'The first man Adam was made a living soul'; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
KJV

The "last Adam" is about our Lord Jesus Christ being made "a quickening spirit" according to Apostle Paul.

That is what the resurrection body is, a "spiritual body" and not one of flesh. This is why Apostle Paul eventually says this...

1 Cor 15:48-50
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

Either you believe God's Word as written, or you don't. What you have chosen to believe is NOT God's written Word, as I have proven by what Paul actually taught that the future glorious body is not... a raised flesh body.

 

[Davy]

The above scriptures were not written by me and nowhere does my post claim that the body of flesh and blood will be raised a body of flesh and blood but Paul makes it abundantly clear that the flesh and blood body that is sown in the earth when it dies and is buried is the seed that will be changed into an immortal, incorruptible non-flesh-and-blood (spiritual) body.

No, actually Paul was not teaching that idea that the seed sown is what is raised immortal. He actually said just the opposite, didn't you read...

1 Cor 15:37
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
KJV

The analogy of agricultural seed sown does not completely fit the idea of the "spiritual body" being what is raised. When speaking of material seed, when it germinates, the original seed that was sown dies, but from within that dying seed springs new life, and thus a new seed that is not that old seed.

The part that Paul was using from that sowing seed analogy is how something WITHIN the original sown dying seed, is what is raised immortal, not the sown seed. That's actually how he was using the plant seed analogy. Per that, our flesh body is represented by the seed sown, and our "spiritual body" is represented by the new seed that springs out from within the dying seed. And what is that which dwells 'within' our flesh body?

It is our spirit with soul. Our spirit is actually the "spiritual body", the "image of the heavenly" that Paul was pointing to. Our soul part is our individual person.

In 2 Corinthians 5, that other body from God, not made with hands, but eternal in the heavens, is about our spiritual body that dwells within our flesh body. It merely steps out our flesh at flesh death, with our soul (our actual person). Thus The New Testament teaches that our spirit with soul can... be separated from our flesh, but our spirit with soul are always together, even in the heavenly.

 

[Timtofly]

If they were not born from above before being beheaded then their witness [martyría] for Jesus and for the Word of God would not be mentioned along with their refusal to worship the beast or his image or receive his mark, as the reason why they were beheaded. It's referring to martyred saints.

The act of being beheaded is that witness. Just refusing the mark is not getting rid of Adam's flesh and blood. Being alive without loosing one's head will not get one resurrected. They are only resurrected, because they cut off their heads. Being beheaded was their witness statement. How big of a difference would it be if they accepted Christ and then instead of being baptized, they cut off their head? What if cutting off their head was their confession of faith? What you think is that they get saved, then go to the government and ask to have their head cut off? If they never get their head cut off, they can never be resurrected! Their salvation is a symbolic baptism of fire. Their salvation is one literally having their heads chopped off.

It is the act of one's head being chopped off that prevents one from having the mark. Two choices during Satan's 42 months. Receive the mark. Receive a beheading. There is not a third choice to endure until the end. The mark is not like the plague. People choose the mark. But God is not going to wait around forever to give people years to decide, is He? God is already making the Second Coming a prolonged period of time, and the Tribulation shorter. Today is the day of salvation. No one is supposed to be waiting until they have to choose to have their head cut off, instead of receiving the mark. You really think it wise that some hold out on this decision until a week prior to the vials of God's wrath at the end of those 42 months?

Do you think just because one has the mark, they will not die during those 42 months? Do you think that many will not die because of the wickedness and abominable desolation, or the desolate abominations going on? Do you think a person who physically dies even without the mark is going to be resurrected just because they somehow never received the mark? Should one put off being beheaded until the very end? How do their odds go up the longer they wait? Why see how long one can live in Adam's sinful flesh, thinking God will spare their life until they finally accept being beheaded? Did the verse not say, only those beheaded for the witness of Christ will be resurrected?

"and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands."

Show me one verse that states they ran around and hid from the government, until they were caught and beheaded. John straight up says that being beheaded was for the witness of Jesus and the Word of God. Why would they be ashamed and hide if their only witness was being beheaded? What is your answer to them waiting until the last days to be beheaded as a witness? What if they wait too long and still die in Adam's flesh and blood as a sinner, because the only witness was literally being beheaded?

If you can prove the final harvest will not start until after the gleanings, how is that a natural harvest when normally the gleanings are left for last? If all humanity has the mark and are killed at Armageddon, is that God only harvesting the leftovers and not the firstfruits? Would Jesus not gather the firstfruits first, instead of after all humanity has been marked and sentenced to eternal damnation? Is God going to remove the mark from many, and call that the final harvest? Or is the mark not a choice but some random plague, and many will be harvested, because they did not "catch the mark"? Will avoiding the mark be just as easy as avoiding God's gift of Salvation? What if God places the mark, based on a person's choice to accept God or Satan? Receiving the mark is directly related to having one's name removed from the Lamb's book of life.

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb"

Who has the ability to remove a name from the Lamb's book of life. Who has the ability to place a mark on one whose name has been removed from the Lamb's book of life? Do you think those who are beheaded are predestined to have their heads cut off or is it their free will choice? Would God allow their heads to be cut off, to add their names into the Lamb's book of life? Only God knows if there will be any after the final harvest and prior to these last 42 months, who will even choose to be beheaded for His Word.

Satan's 42 months was not predetermined. The fact there are names still in the Lamb's book of life, and God's omniscient ability at the confirmation of the Atonement Covenant during the 7th Trumpet is the only reason some will beheaded, and the only reason for Satan's 42 months. The reason is not because of Satan's desires and wishes. The reason is that God is longsuffering, not willing that any should perish, but that even after time should be up, after the final harvest, after the church has already been glorified and placed in Paradise, there are some souls still beheaded for the witness of Jesus and His shed blood on the Cross as a redemption for all. God's Word remains that even though they have to choose to be physically beheaded, they will still be granted eternal life.

It is not the choice of some AC. It is not the choice of Satan. It is God allowing the last of Adam's flesh to still choose redemption over all that Satan has to offer.