The many errors and contradictions found in Amillennialism.

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,819
3,250
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Try to keep the context. Christ himself, no one else, comes IN IN IN IN flaming fire. He is killing with that sword, not fire. Amillennialism falsifies that part. That is a VERY dishonest doctrine.
Looks Like A Whole Bunch Of "Fire" To Me, The Earth Melting, Men Being Judged By Fire?

Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance
on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
 

Earburner

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2019
6,514
1,543
113
74
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
YOU have a hard time understanding Apostle Paul said that Christ was "made a quickening spirit", which does NOT mean a flesh body!

1 Cor 15:45-47
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.


46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

KJV

You also have had ample chance to read that above Scripture from my posts, yet you still... REJECT THAT SCRIPTURE AS WRITTEN, showing others here what? It shows you have NO INTENTION of keeping to God's Word as written, but instead more interested in keeping to a false agenda from men.
Could it be, that you have not thought about the simple fact that Jesus, in the immortality of His New form of Life, can be either spirit or flesh and bone at will?
John.20[19] Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

[26] And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

How did Jesus enter into room, into the presence of the disciples?
1. He knocked on the door, and one of the disciples opened the door.
2. He simply opened the door, locked or unlocked, and came in.
3. He simply walked through the door, without opening it at all, and then revealed Himself suddenly, in the midst of the room and unto them.
Question: what was the transfiguration all about, before His death and resurrection?
 
Last edited:

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,819
3,250
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Could it be, that you have not thought about the simple fact that Jesus, in the immortality of His New form of Life, can be either spirit or flesh and bone at will?
John.20[19] Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

[26] And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

How did Jesus enter into room, into the presence of the disciples?
1. He knocked on the door, and one of the disciples opened the door.
2. He simply opened the door, locked or unlocked, and came in.
3. He simply walked through the door, without opening it at all, and then revealed Himself suddenly, in the midst of the room and unto them.
Question: what was the transfiguration all about, before His death and resurrection?
Luke 24:31-32KJV
30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Earburner

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
4,330
1,839
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
But they were living souls between being beheaded and being resurrected. Do you think no time passed? Why would living souls be resurrected still as living souls. The difference is that these living souls received physical bodies.

You are arguing they were dead souls that were just given life. (Notice I am not accusing you of saying that, but you pointed out soul sleep, yourself) Because a living soul just staying a living soul is not a resurrection under any definition. There is literally no change at all, if you deny a physical body.

The whole point is that they physically died, there was a state of a soul, then a resurrection. A resurrection is physical because that is the only change to a living soul. Living souls stopped being a thing back in 30AD, when they all came out of their graves with physical bodies. Why even try to place the soul back into such a state?

We have a condition here, because those beheaded do not get a resurrection into Paradise, even if you disagree. No soul after the 7th Trumpet goes to Paradise. I know you don't think there are 42 months after the 7th Trumpet. But you have no proof a soul remains without change into something else than just a soul. Even if you claim souls don't have bodies now, what do you think happens after the 7th Trumpet? Surely not just a soul?

But as an Amil, you cannot even place Revelation 20:4 at the end. You place it at the Resurrection in 30AD. You don't ever give them bodies, do you? They were resurrected in 30AD, but actually died at the Second Coming during Satan's alledged "little season". Weird, but that is Amil chronology.
I couldn't understand a word you said here. Please don't bother responding to me anymore. You just don't make any sense, so it's not worth the effort to try to decode whatever it is you're trying to say.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Truth7t7

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
4,330
1,839
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Obviously heaven and earth, 2 groups.

So those in the LOF are not a third group. We will just pretend they are not on earth or in heaven.
What in the world are you talking about? Once the unsaved are cast into the lake of fire, the saved will then be on the new earth. Those are the only two groups there will be at that point.
 

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2020
3,062
1,210
113
Africa
zaoislife.blogspot.com
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
(Williams) and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created the heavens and all that they contain, the earth and all that it contains, and the sea and all that it contains, that there should be no more delay,
Here's another fact that Amillennialism ignores and pretends isn't a problem to the Amillennilaist theory:

Revelation 20:5-6 uses the word anástasis (The Resurrection), which whenever it is used in the New Testament, is not referring to a 'spiritual regeneration', but to the resurrection of the body:

All of the verses below use the word anástasis. All of them are speaking about the bodily resurrection of the dead, either of Christ or of the saints, or of people arguing against the idea of The Resurrection:

|| Matthew 22:23, 28 & 30-31; Mark 12:18 & 23; Luke 2:34; Luke 14:14; Luke 20:27, 33, 35-36; John 5:29; John 11:24-25; Acts 1:22; Acts 2:31; Acts 4:2; Acts 4:33; Acts 17:18, 32; Acts 23:6, 8; Acts 24:15, 21; Acts 26:23; Romans 1:4; Romans 6:5; 1 Corinthians 15:12-13, 21, 42; Philippians 3:10; II Timothy 2:18; Hebrews 6:2; Hebrews 11:35; I Peter 1:3; I Peter 3:21; Revelation 20:5-6. ||

All of the following verses below use one or more of the following words, and all are speaking about the bodily resurrection, either of Christ or of the saints:

égersis; anístēmi; egeírō:

|| Matthew 9:25; Matthew 10:8; Matthew 11:5; Matthew 14:2; Matthew 17:9; Matthew 16:21; Matthew 17:23; Matthew 20:19; Matthew 26:32; Matthew 27:52-53 & 63-64; Matthew 28:6-7; Mark 6:14 & 16; Mark 12:26; Mark 14:28; Mark 16:6 & 14; Luke 7:14; Luke 7:22; Luke 8:54; Luke 9:7 & 22; Luke 14:13-14; Luke 20:37; Luke 24:6; Luke 24:34; John 2:19-21; John 5:21; John 12:1, 9 & 17; John 5:28-29; John 21:14; Acts 1:22; Acts 2:24, 31-32; Acts 3:15 & 26; Acts 4:1-2, 10 & 33; Acts 5:30; Acts 10:40; Acts 13:30 & 33-37; Acts 17:18 & 31-32; Acts 23:6-8; Acts 24:15 & 21; Acts 26:8; Romans 1:4; Romans 4:23-25; Romans 6:4-5; Romans 6:9; Romans 7:4; Romans 8:11; Romans 8:34; Romans 10:9; 1 Corinthians 6:14; 2 Corinthians 1:9; 2 Corinthians 4:14; 2 Corinthians 5:15; Galatians 1:1; Ephesians 1:20; Ephesians 2:5-6; Ephesians 5:14; Philippians 3:10-11; Colossians 2:12-13; Colossians 3:1 (Compare with Romans 6:5); 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16; 2 Timothy 2:8 & 18; Hebrews 6:1-2; Hebrews 11:35; 1 Peter 1:3-5; 1 Peter 1:21; 1 Peter 3:18 & 21; Revelation 20:5-6. ||

Not one New Testament verse employing any of the above listed words associated with resurrection, is talking about a spiritual regeneration or quickening, or spiritual birth of the Spirit from above. Not one.

1. Words used in reference to living or being made alive by the Spirit ("quickened")

záō: a primary verb; to live, to be quick.
zōopoiéō: Used in reference to the Spirit's quickening, making alive again, giving life. Also used in reference to the quickening of the mortal body (see below).
syzōopoiéō: Made alive again, quickened together with Christ.

The word zōopoiéō ("quicken") refers to being made alive by the Spirit, i.e the quickening of the Spirit, for example in John 5:21; John 6:63; Romans 4:17; Romans 8:11; I Corinthians 15:22, 36 & 45; II Corinthians 3:6; Galatians 3:21; I Timothy 6:13; I Peter 3:18.

2. Similar meanings, but not the same:

syzōopoiéō: Made alive again by the Spirit, quickened together with Christ.
synegeírō: Only employed in reference to being raised up together with Christ's bodily resurrection.

zōopoiéō (the quickening of the Spirit) is the power of God for the anástasis (the bodily resurrection of Christ and of the saints):

"But if the Spirit of the One who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One who raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken [zōopoiéō] your mortal bodies by His Spirit who dwells in you." (Romans 8:11).

"That which is born [gennáō] of the flesh [sárx] is flesh [sárx]; and that which is born [gennáō] of the Spirit [pneûma] is spirit [pneûma].” (John 3:6).

"It is the Spirit that makes alive [ζωοποιέω zōopoiéō] the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and are life." (John 6:63)

"For Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, indeed being put to death in the flesh [sárx], but made alive [zōopoiéō] in the Spirit; in which also He went and preached to the spirits in prison." (1 Peter 3:18-19)

"And so it is written, "The first man, Adam, was made a living soul," the last Adam was a life-giving [ζωοποιέω zōopoiéō] Spirit." (1 Corinthians 15:45).

3. The word syzōopoiéō is used in two verses in the New Testament:

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in sins has made us alive together with Christ [συζωοποιέω syzōopoiéō] (by grace you are saved), and has raised us up together [synegeírō] and made us sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with [syzōopoiéō] Him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Colossians 2:13).

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has begotten us again [anagennáō] to a living hope (Greek: záō elpís) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." (1 Peter 1:3) *

* anagennáō ["begotten us again"] is a combination of the words gennáō (beget) and aná (again)
* Living hope (záō elpís): The word záō means to live, and the word elpís means to anticipate

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit".

The word "regeneration" in the above verse is a translation of the Greek word palingenesía [StrongsGreek G03824]. It's a combination of the words pálin (anew) and génesis (i.e generation).

Thayer's dictionary:
new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration.

The word is also found in Matthew 19:28:

“And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

So until Amillennialists can produce a verse in the New Testament where the word anástasis is not used in reference to the bodily resurrection, they remain exposed for the falsehood they teach about the same word in Revelation 20:5-6, because there is not one verse in the New Testament where the words anástasis égersis; anístēmi; egeírō are not talking only about the bodily resurrection from the dead.
 
Last edited:

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
4,330
1,839
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You still are showing you do not understand what it means for a physically dead person to become ZAO again. Since I have explained it and you still don't understand I won't bother explaining any further.
Yes, there is no need for you to explain your erroneous understanding of the word any further.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
4,330
1,839
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Copy @ewq1938 for info
Well I'm reluctant to get into this with you SJ, I mean SI (I beg your pardon), but the noun used for "the resurrection" in Revelation 20:5-6 is anástasis, and it's preceded by the definite article in the Greek.

Can you please quote for me a verse in the New Testament (any verse except Revelation 20:5-6) where the word anástasis is employed and is not referring to the bodily resurrection of the dead, but instead to spiritual regeneration or the quickening of the Spirit?
Yes, this is SJ and I'm not trying to hide that. Just wanted to use a different, but similar name here. I'm not sure if others who post on both forums/boards have caught that I'm SJ from the other forum or not.

Anyway, have you forgotten the past discussions we've had about this? I agree with you on this as far as how that word is used in scripture and I've told you that several times before. I see the first resurrection as referring specifically to the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ because that is what scripture teaches (Acts 26:23; 1 Cor 15:20,22; Col 1:18; Rev 1:5). I've told you this several times before. And the way someone has part in His resurrection is spiritually when they become saved, as evidenced by several scriptures such as Romans 6, Ephesians 2:1-6 and others.

I've also pointed out many times that what is described in Revelation 20:6 is described as a current reality elsewhere in scripture, including Revelation 1:5-6. That passage teaches that Christ was the first to rise from the dead (with an immortal body), that He currently reigns as "the rule of the kings of the earth", that believers currently are priests of God and of Christ in His kingdom (just like 1 Peter 2:9), and that the second death has no power over believers now because He "washed us from our sins in his own blood". Revelation 20:6 should be interpreted with all of that in mind, but Premils like yourself don't do that.

Here's another fact that Amillennialism ignores and pretends isn't a problem to the Amillennilaist theory:
It's not a problem for my particular Amillennialist view. Please be fair and make it clear that you are only talking about some Amils here and not all of us. Some of us take "the first resurrection" to be speaking of Christ's bodily resurrection and not of a spiritual resurrection. Yes, I believe having part in the first resurrection is spiritual, but not the first resurrection itself. So, the way I interpret the Greek word anastasis in Revelation 20 is consistent with how it is used elsewhere in scripture.
 
Last edited:

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2020
3,062
1,210
113
Africa
zaoislife.blogspot.com
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
Yes, this is SJ and I'm not trying to hide that. I'm not sure if others who post on both forums/boards have caught that or not.

Anyway, have you forgotten the past discussions we've had about this? I agree with you on this as far as how that word is used in scripture and I've told you that several times before. I see the first resurrection as referring specifically to the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. I've told you this several times before. And the way someone has part in His resurrection is spiritually when they become saved, as evidenced by several scriptures such as Romans 6, Ephesians 2:1-6 and others.
1. Revelation 20:5-6 is speaking about the resurrection of those who had been beheaded. They are the subject.
2. Revelation 20:5-6 are using the word anastasis, referring only to the bodily resurrection of saints or the bodily resurrection of Jesus Himself, not the word synegeiro (risen with Christ) or the word zōopoiéō (quickened), or the word syzōopoiéō (quickened together with Christ).

I know you have chosen to ignore the fact, that's why I asked you to quote a New Testament verse using anastasis where it means syzōopoiéō.

But you have not done so. I doubt you will admit your fallacy.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
4,330
1,839
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Try to keep the context. Christ himself, no one else, comes IN IN IN IN flaming fire. He is killing with that sword, not fire. Amillennialism falsifies that part. That is a VERY dishonest doctrine.
You are making yourself look very bad here. You are trying to convince us that Jesus will somehow literally kill people with a non-literal, symbolic sword. And we're supposed to take your argument seriously? Not a chance. You trying to act as if a non-literal, non-physical, symbolic sword can be used to literally, physically kill people is one of the most ludicrous things I've ever seen.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
4,330
1,839
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
1. Revelation 20:5-6 is speaking about the resurrection of those who had been beheaded. They are the subject.
2. Revelation 20:5-6 are using the word anastasis, referring only to the bodily resurrection of saints or the bodily resurrection of Jesus Himself, not the word synegeiro (risen with Christ) or the word zōopoiéō (quickened), or the word syzōopoiéō (quickened together with Christ).

I know you have chosen to ignore the fact, that's why I asked you to quote a New Testament verse using anastasis where it means syzōopoiéō.
You clearly didn't read a word I said.

But you have not done so. I doubt you will admit your fallacy.
You completely ignore Revelation 1:5-6 when interpreting Revelation 20:6, so you're not one to talk to someone else about fallacy. If you're just going to repeat the same thing every time you post without addressing any of my points, then don't waste your time replying to me.
 

ewq1938

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2015
5,936
1,224
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Some of us take "the first resurrection" to be speaking of Christ's bodily resurrection and not of a spiritual resurrection.


That is a contextual error since Revelation 20 is talking about the physical resurrection of a group of beheaded people, not Christ's resurrection.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zao is life

ewq1938

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2015
5,936
1,224
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You are making yourself look very bad here. You are trying to convince us that Jesus will somehow literally kill people with a non-literal, symbolic sword. And we're supposed to take your argument seriously? Not a chance.


Then you reject what the scripture says:

Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

YOU are the one changing this from a sword to fire.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zao is life

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
4,330
1,839
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That is a contextual error since Revelation 20 is talking about the physical resurrection of a group of beheaded people, not Christ's resurrection.
So you think, but have you ever compared Revelation 20:6 to Revelation 1:5-6? The things that are said in Revelation 20:6 are talked about as a current reality in Revelation 1:5-6. Premils just ignore that.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
4,330
1,839
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Then you reject what the scripture says:

Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

YOU are the one changing this from a sword to fire.
LOL. No, I'm the one recognizing that a symbolic sword can't be used to literally, physically kill people. That's Common Sense 101.

You said yourself that it's a symbolic sword. Please explain to me how someone can be literally, physically killed by a non-literal, non-physical, symbolic sword. I have no reason to take you seriously until you do that.

You're not recognizing that it is the unbeliever's rejection of the word of God (the sword of the Spirit - Eph 6:17) that results in His wrath being on them. That's why it talks figuratively of Him slaying them with a sword coming out of His mouth. But, that is figurative text. It does not describe the literal way in which He will physically destroy His enemies in Revelation 19. That can be found in verses like 2 Peter 3:10-12 and Revelation 20:9 instead.

It's comical how you are not understanding this simple concept. But, I know that doctrinal bias does that to people. It leads people to conclude utter nonsense like thinking that people can be literally, physically destroyed by a symbolic sword coming out of Christ's mouth instead of recognizing what a sword coming out of His mouth symbolizes. Yes, His enemies will be physically destroyed at His second coming, but not literally by a symbolic sword. LOL.
 
Last edited:

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2020
3,062
1,210
113
Africa
zaoislife.blogspot.com
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
You clearly didn't read a word I said.

You completely ignore Revelation 1:5-6 when interpreting Revelation 20:6, so you're not one to talk to someone else about fallacy. If you're just going to repeat the same thing every time you post without addressing any of my points, then don't waste your time replying to me.
Where does Revelation 1:5-6 imply it's speaking of saints who had been beheaded? And for their witness to Jesus and refusal to worship the beast or receive his mark or number of his name?

Where?
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
4,330
1,839
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Where does Revelation 1:5-6 imply it's speaking of saints who had been beheaded? And for their witness to Jesus and refusal to worship the beast or receive his mark or number of his name?

Where?
I never said that. Are you purposely missing the point? Do you seriously not recognize any similarities between Revelation 1:5-6 and Revelation 20:6?

Revelation 1:5-6 talks about Christ having been the first to be resurrected from the dead (the first resurrection), about Him currently reigning as "the ruler of the kings of the earth", about believers currently being priests of God and of Christ in His kingdom, and about us having been freed from our sins by His blood, which means have the promise of eternal life and the second death has no power over us. When we physically die, all these things are still true. So, with all of that in mind, why would you look at the things that are referenced in Revelation 20:6 from a future perspective rather than as a current reality like they are in Revelation 1:5-6?
 

ewq1938

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2015
5,936
1,224
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Where does Revelation 1:5-6 imply it's speaking of saints who had been beheaded?


Right. The people John wrote to were alive, not killed in the Great Tribulation for refusing the mark etc. It also makes no mention of them having a rod of iron to rule over the nations. He is not comparing Revelation 2 with this:

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Rev 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.
Rev 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Clearly the rule over the nations does not begin until:

1. hold fast till I come (the second coming)
2. they are overcomers
3. Keep his works until the end (another second coming reference)

Only until those things are done will any saint get the rod of iron to rule over the nations.

Amillennialism completely ignores this because it destroys their doctrine just as Revelation 20 does.

This is why Amills of the past did not want Revelation canonized.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zao is life

ewq1938

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2015
5,936
1,224
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Revelation 1:5-6 talks about Christ having been the first to be resurrected from the dead (the first resurrection), about Him currently reigning as "the ruler of the kings of the earth"

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


You are inserting that. It is not in those verses. There is no reigning as you claim. Here is when he will reign:


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
 

Earburner

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2019
6,514
1,543
113
74
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Here's another fact that Amillennialism ignores and pretends isn't a problem to the Amillennilaist theory:

Revelation 20:5-6 uses the word anástasis (The Resurrection), which whenever it is used in the New Testament, is not referring to a 'spiritual regeneration', but to the resurrection of the body:

All of the verses below use the word anástasis. All of them are speaking about the bodily resurrection of the dead, either of Christ or of the saints, or of people arguing against the idea of The Resurrection:

|| Matthew 22:23, 28 & 30-31; Mark 12:18 & 23; Luke 2:34; Luke 14:14; Luke 20:27, 33, 35-36; John 5:29; John 11:24-25; Acts 1:22; Acts 2:31; Acts 4:2; Acts 4:33; Acts 17:18, 32; Acts 23:6, 8; Acts 24:15, 21; Acts 26:23; Romans 1:4; Romans 6:5; 1 Corinthians 15:12-13, 21, 42; Philippians 3:10; II Timothy 2:18; Hebrews 6:2; Hebrews 11:35; I Peter 1:3; I Peter 3:21; Revelation 20:5-6. ||

All of the following verses below use one or more of the following words, and all are speaking about the bodily resurrection, either of Christ or of the saints:

égersis; anístēmi; egeírō:

|| Matthew 9:25; Matthew 10:8; Matthew 11:5; Matthew 14:2; Matthew 17:9; Matthew 16:21; Matthew 17:23; Matthew 20:19; Matthew 26:32; Matthew 27:52-53 & 63-64; Matthew 28:6-7; Mark 6:14 & 16; Mark 12:26; Mark 14:28; Mark 16:6 & 14; Luke 7:14; Luke 7:22; Luke 8:54; Luke 9:7 & 22; Luke 14:13-14; Luke 20:37; Luke 24:6; Luke 24:34; John 2:19-21; John 5:21; John 12:1, 9 & 17; John 5:28-29; John 21:14; Acts 1:22; Acts 2:24, 31-32; Acts 3:15 & 26; Acts 4:1-2, 10 & 33; Acts 5:30; Acts 10:40; Acts 13:30 & 33-37; Acts 17:18 & 31-32; Acts 23:6-8; Acts 24:15 & 21; Acts 26:8; Romans 1:4; Romans 4:23-25; Romans 6:4-5; Romans 6:9; Romans 7:4; Romans 8:11; Romans 8:34; Romans 10:9; 1 Corinthians 6:14; 2 Corinthians 1:9; 2 Corinthians 4:14; 2 Corinthians 5:15; Galatians 1:1; Ephesians 1:20; Ephesians 2:5-6; Ephesians 5:14; Philippians 3:10-11; Colossians 2:12-13; Colossians 3:1 (Compare with Romans 6:5); 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16; 2 Timothy 2:8 & 18; Hebrews 6:1-2; Hebrews 11:35; 1 Peter 1:3-5; 1 Peter 1:21; 1 Peter 3:18 & 21; Revelation 20:5-6. ||

Not one New Testament verse employing any of the above listed words associated with resurrection, is talking about a spiritual regeneration or quickening, or spiritual birth of the Spirit from above. Not one.

1. Words used in reference to living or being made alive by the Spirit ("quickened")

záō: a primary verb; to live, to be quick.
zōopoiéō: Used in reference to the Spirit's quickening, making alive again, giving life. Also used in reference to the quickening of the mortal body (see below).
syzōopoiéō: Made alive again, quickened together with Christ.

The word zōopoiéō ("quicken") refers to being made alive by the Spirit, i.e the quickening of the Spirit, for example in John 5:21; John 6:63; Romans 4:17; Romans 8:11; I Corinthians 15:22, 36 & 45; II Corinthians 3:6; Galatians 3:21; I Timothy 6:13; I Peter 3:18.

2. Similar meanings, but not the same:

syzōopoiéō: Made alive again by the Spirit, quickened together with Christ.
synegeírō: Only employed in reference to being raised up together with Christ's bodily resurrection.

zōopoiéō (the quickening of the Spirit) is the power of God for the anástasis (the bodily resurrection of Christ and of the saints):

"But if the Spirit of the One who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One who raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken [zōopoiéō] your mortal bodies by His Spirit who dwells in you." (Romans 8:11).

"That which is born [gennáō] of the flesh [sárx] is flesh [sárx]; and that which is born [gennáō] of the Spirit [pneûma] is spirit [pneûma].” (John 3:6).

"It is the Spirit that makes alive [ζωοποιέω zōopoiéō] the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and are life." (John 6:63)

"For Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, indeed being put to death in the flesh [sárx], but made alive [zōopoiéō] in the Spirit; in which also He went and preached to the spirits in prison." (1 Peter 3:18-19)

"And so it is written, "The first man, Adam, was made a living soul," the last Adam was a life-giving [ζωοποιέω zōopoiéō] Spirit." (1 Corinthians 15:45).

3. The word syzōopoiéō is used in two verses in the New Testament:

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in sins has made us alive together with Christ [συζωοποιέω syzōopoiéō] (by grace you are saved), and has raised us up together [synegeírō] and made us sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with [syzōopoiéō] Him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Colossians 2:13).

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has begotten us again [anagennáō] to a living hope (Greek: záō elpís) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." (1 Peter 1:3) *

* anagennáō ["begotten us again"] is a combination of the words gennáō (beget) and aná (again)
* Living hope (záō elpís): The word záō means to live, and the word elpís means to anticipate

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit".

The word "regeneration" in the above verse is a translation of the Greek word palingenesía [StrongsGreek G03824]. It's a combination of the words pálin (anew) and génesis (i.e generation).

Thayer's dictionary:
new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration.

The word is also found in Matthew 19:28:

“And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

So until Amillennialists can produce a verse in the New Testament where the word anástasis is not used in reference to the bodily resurrection, they remain exposed for the falsehood they teach about the same word in Revelation 20:5-6, because there is not one verse in the New Testament where the words anástasis égersis; anístēmi; egeírō are not talking only about the bodily resurrection from the dead.
1 Corinthians 2:1-16
1 Cor. 2[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.