The many errors and contradictions found in Amillennialism.

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,760
3,215
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I couldn't understand a word you said here. Please don't bother responding to me anymore. You just don't make any sense, so it's not worth the effort to try to decode whatever it is you're trying to say.
Your catching on, "Confusion"!
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
4,330
1,839
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Right. The people John wrote to were alive, not killed in the Great Tribulation for refusing the mark etc. It also makes no mention of them having a rod of iron to rule over the nations. He is not comparing Revelation 2 with this:

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Rev 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.
Rev 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Clearly the rule over the nations does not begin until:

1. hold fast till I come (the second coming)
2. they are overcomers
3. Keep his works until the end (another second coming reference)

Only until those things are done will any saint get the rod of iron to rule over the nations.

Amillennialism completely ignores this because it destroys their doctrine just as Revelation 20 does.
Would you agree that we are priests in Christ's kingdom now as passages like Revelation 1:5-6 and 1 Peter 2:9 indicate? If so, does that change when we die and our souls go to heaven?

Tell me, does the second death have power over you now? Does it have power over the dead in Christ right now? Clearly not, right? So, why do you act as if someone needs to be bodily resurrected in order for the second death to not have power over them, which is how you interpret Revelation 20:6?

This is why Amills of the past did not want Revelation canonized.
Which Amills? Name names. What a few nameless Amills may have wanted way back then has nothing to do with me or other Amills now.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
4,330
1,839
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


You are inserting that. It is not in those verses. There is no reigning as you claim.
You are not seeing it because you're reading it with your Premil Bias glasses on.

How can you think there is no reigning referenced there when it refers to Jesus in present tense as "the prince of the kings of the earth" and references believers as having been made "kings and priests unto God and his Father"?

Here is when he will reign:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
That is talking about when He delivers the kingdom to the Father. Notice how it first references "our Lord" and then "and of his Christ". So, this is talking about the time when the Father will rule over all with the Son after having previously given all authority to His Son (Matthew 28:18, Ephesians 1:19-22).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Truth7t7

ewq1938

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2015
5,840
1,212
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You are not seeing it because you're reading it with your Premil Bias glasses on.

No, that's your problem with dirty Amillennial glasses.

How can you think there is no reigning referenced there when it refers to Jesus in present tense as "the prince of the kings of the earth" and references believers as having been made "kings and priests unto God and his Father"?

Because there is no reigning yet over the kings of the Earth in that verse! That starts at the 7th trump as I already proved. He returns and the kingdoms of the world belong to him and he reigns!
 

ewq1938

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2015
5,840
1,212
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Would you agree that we are priests in Christ's kingdom

No because you are inserting "in Christ's kingdom". You have a serious problem inserting things. It's called eisegesis, look it up. Christ's kingdom is in heaven and we are on the Earth which is not yet his kingdom.



Tell me, does the second death have power over you now?


The second death is a long ways from now. It has no power over anyone yet.



So, why do you act as if someone needs to be bodily resurrected in order for the second death to not have power over them, which is how you interpret Revelation 20:6?

At the resurrection scripture states the second death has no power over them.

Which Amills? Name names. What a few nameless Amills may have wanted way back then has nothing to do with me or other Amills now.

The same disdain is found in many Amillennial postings. If you want names, you will have to read their and see their names.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zao is life

quietthinker

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2018
11,544
7,584
113
FNQ
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
The many errors and contradictions found in Amillennialism.
The many errors and contradictions found in living breathing human beings!
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
4,330
1,839
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Because there is no reigning yet over the kings of the Earth in that verse! That starts at the 7th trump as I already proved. He returns and the kingdoms of the world belong to him and he reigns!
Are you even trying here? You are so incredibly biased that you are incapable of understanding this straightforward passage:

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Fatherto him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

This passage clearly indicates that Jesus Christ CURRENTLY is "the ruler of the kings of the earth" and it's said in the present tense "to him be glory and power for ever and ever". Which lines up with other scripture like Matthew 28:18 and Ephesians 1:19-22 which teach that He has all authority in heaven and earth and reigns above all things and everything that is named. And it also says that believers have been MADE "to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father". It's clearly talking about the current reality of Jesus being the King of the earth and the current reality of us reigning with Him in His kingdom. And that doesn't change when we die, so the souls of the dead in Christ that John saw reign with Him in heaven as priests in His kingdom just as they reigned with Him while they were alive.

You think for Jesus to be reigning over the kings of the earth means that they have to be doing everything He says. That's not what it means. Christ's status as the King of heaven and earth is not dependent on how many people are currently obeying Him or not. He is the King regardless of what anyone does! Is Joe Biden not the President of the U.S. and not the commander-in-chief just because a lot of people don't like him and disagree with his policies? No. Anyone who never acknowledges Jesus as King will be condemned on the day He returns, as portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Truth7t7

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
4,330
1,839
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No because you are inserting "in Christ's kingdom". You have a serious problem inserting things. It's called eisegesis, look it up. Christ's kingdom is in heaven and we are on the Earth which is not yet his kingdom.
This is nonsense. The fact that His Spirit is in us means that His kingdom is on earth spiritually. How can you not know that? How can you be this lacking in discernment? It says in 1 Peter 2:9 that we (the church) are a "ROYAL priesthood". What kingdom are we in as priests if not Christ's kingdom?

Scripture says we are in Christ's kingdom now. Is He not your King now? How can any Christian not think that He is our King now? And if He's our King then we are in His kingdom.

Colossians 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Is there anything not clear about what this passage says? It clearly says we (believers) have been rescued from the dominion of darkness. Do you deny that as a current reality for us as believers? I'm sure you don't. It says we also have been brought "into the kingdom of the Son he loves". So, that is a current reality, also.

The second death is a long ways from now. It has no power over anyone yet.
That is false. It has power over the unsaved dead right now because their fate of experiencing the second death is sealed. That it hasn't happened yet is irrelevant. The second death has power over them because they will not be able to avoid it. We don't need to be bodily resurrected in order for the second death to not have power over us, so that has to be taken into consideration when determining the timing of Revelation 20:6.

At the resurrection scripture states the second death has no power over them.
The second death has no power over believers (dead or alive) now! Why are you acting as if it will have power over them until they are bodily resurrected? Of course that is not the case.

The same disdain is found in many Amillennial postings. If you want names, you will have to read their and see their names.
I have read the posts of many Amils for many years and have never once seen any indication that they have disdain for the book of Revelation. That you are not able to name anyone shows that you are just making things up to try to make Amils look bad, which is shameful. You know you can't convincingly support your false Premil doctrine, so you feel that you have no choice but to resort to these desperate tactics to keep your doctrine afloat.
 

ewq1938

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2015
5,840
1,212
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This is nonsense. The fact that His Spirit is in us means that His kingdom is on earth spiritually. How can you not know that? How can you be this lacking in discernment? It says in 1 Peter 2:9 that we (the church) are a "ROYAL priesthood". What kingdom are we in as priests if not Christ's kingdom?

Scripture says we are in Christ's kingdom now. Is He not your King now? How can any Christian not think that He is our King now? And if He's our King then we are in His kingdom.

Colossians 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Is there anything not clear about what this passage says? It clearly says we (believers) have been rescued from the dominion of darkness. Do you deny that as a current reality for us as believers? I'm sure you don't. It says we also have been brought "into the kingdom of the Son he loves". So, that is a current reality, also.

That is false. It has power over the unsaved dead right now because their fate of experiencing the second death is sealed. That it hasn't happened yet is irrelevant. The second death has power over them because they will not be able to avoid it. We don't need to be bodily resurrected in order for the second death to not have power over us, so that has to be taken into consideration when determining the timing of Revelation 20:6.

The second death has no power over believers (dead or alive) now! Why are you acting as if it will have power over them until they are bodily resurrected? Of course that is not the case.

I have read the posts of many Amils for many years and have never once seen any indication that they have disdain for the book of Revelation. That you are not able to name anyone shows that you are just making things up to try to make Amils look bad, which is shameful. You know you can't convincingly support your false Premil doctrine, so you feel that you have no choice but to resort to these desperate tactics to keep your doctrine afloat.

I've debunked Amillennialism on every major point and many smaller ones. It's just as badly created as pre-trib and just as easy to prove to be fictional and not from the bible. I have 50 of them so far and it is time for the next one.
 

ewq1938

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2015
5,840
1,212
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
23. Does Jesus descend from heaven to open the pit before the tribulation/6th trump or after it has ended?

This is another contradiction related to number 22.
 

ewq1938

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2015
5,840
1,212
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
24. One resurrection of the dead or two?

Some Amillennialists believe the resurrection of the unrighteous immediately follow the resurrection of the righteous at a general resurrection but sometimes admits there could be a second or more inbetween the two resurrections. That promotes two different resurrections separated by a short time period, yet Amillennialism usually denies there are two resurrections. Even a second between resurrections automatically proves there are two. Revelation 20 says there is over a thousand years between the two resurrections which really ends any valid debate on the subject.

Another variant of Amillennialism believes that Revelation 20 does not show two resurrections despite the text declaring "the rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years were finished" proving a group of the dead did live again (a resurrection), and that a second group of the dead would live again (a resurrection) at a later time.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Two resurrections:

1. Those that have done good. Revelation 20:4
2. Those that have done evil. Revelation 20:11-13
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zao is life

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2020
3,053
1,206
113
Africa
zaoislife.blogspot.com
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
I never said that. Are you purposely missing the point? Do you seriously not recognize any similarities between Revelation 1:5-6 and Revelation 20:6?

Revelation 1:5-6 talks about Christ having been the first to be resurrected from the dead (the first resurrection), about Him currently reigning as "the ruler of the kings of the earth", about believers currently being priests of God and of Christ in His kingdom, and about us having been freed from our sins by His blood, which means have the promise of eternal life and the second death has no power over us. When we physically die, all these things are still true.
There's a kitchen utensil for just about anything today. You'd think that by now someone would have invented an Amil shaker. We could just put you Amil guys into it and shake all the eisegesis out of you. Revelation 1:5-6 is talking TO the saints in the seven Asian churches and what Jesus said to them, He says to all.

"John to the seven churches which are in Asia...even from Jesus Christ the faithful Witness, the First-born from the dead and the Ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and made us kings and priests to God and His Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen."

But Revelation 20:4-6 is speaking about a very specific group who were beheaded during a very brief period at the close of the Age for their testimony to Christ and refusal to worship the beast or his image or receive his mark or the number of his name. That doesn't even include you and me if we die a natural death or get driven over by a Russian tank. It doesn't even say anything about any other saints except the group that the text mentions.

I'll talk to you again later. I'm going to be working on my Amil shaker. You just gave me a good idea.
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,760
3,215
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
24. One resurrection of the dead or two?

Some Amillennialists believe the resurrection of the unrighteous immediately follow the resurrection of the righteous at a general resurrection but sometimes admits there could be a second or more inbetween the two resurrections. That promotes two different resurrections separated by a short time period, yet Amillennialism usually denies there are two resurrections. Even a second between resurrections automatically proves there are two. Revelation 20 says there is over a thousand years between the two resurrections which really ends any valid debate on the subject.

Another variant of Amillennialism believes that Revelation 20 does not show two resurrections despite the text declaring "the rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years were finished" proving a group of the dead did live again (a resurrection), and that a second group of the dead would live again (a resurrection) at a later time.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Two resurrections:

1. Those that have done good. Revelation 20:4
2. Those that have done evil. Revelation 20:11-13
The First Resurrection, On The Last Day Explained?

There are (Two) resurrections on this (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life
2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,760
3,215
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There's a kitchen utensil for just about anything today. You'd think that by now someone would have invented an Amil shaker. We could just put you Amil guys into it and shake all the eisegesis out of you. Revelation 1:5-6 is talking TO the saints in the seven Asian churches and what Jesus said to them, He says to all.

"John to the seven churches which are in Asia...even from Jesus Christ the faithful Witness, the First-born from the dead and the Ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and made us kings and priests to God and His Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen."

But Revelation 20:4-6 is speaking about a very specific group who were beheaded during a very brief period at the close of the Age for their testimony to Christ and refusal to worship the beast or his image or receive his mark or the number of his name. That doesn't even include you and me if we die a natural death or get driven over by a Russian tank. It doesn't even say anything about any other saints except the group that the text mentions.

I'll talk to you again later. I'm going to be working on my Amil shaker. You just gave me a good idea.
Keep looking for your fairy tale Millennial Kingdom on this earth, it's found no place in scripture

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)?

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ?

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time?

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spiritual Israelite

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2020
3,053
1,206
113
Africa
zaoislife.blogspot.com
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
Is that also symbolic metaphor below, the heavens and earth aren't literally going to be "Dissolved" by fire as scripture states?

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
What are the elements/rudiments [stoicheîon] in Galatians 4:3 & 9; Colossians 2:8 & 20; Hebrews 5:12 and 2 Peter 3:10 & 12? Are the elements that will "melt with fervent heat" suddenly referring to the chemical elements in the earth in 2 Peter 3:10 & 12 because you want it to be that way so you can turn the Bible's normal use of metaphor and hyperbole in Apocalyptic literature into something literal?

4747 στοιχεῖον stoicheîon, stoy-khi'-on
something orderly in arrangement, i.e. (by implication) a serial (basal, fundamental, initial) constituent (literally), proposition (figuratively):--element, principle, rudiment.
 

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2020
3,053
1,206
113
Africa
zaoislife.blogspot.com
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
I debated him on another forum and I got fed up with his nonsense and put him on my ignore list (he was the only one on it). I'll have to do the same here.
If I want to ignore someone I just ignore the person or at least ignore the posts I want to ignore. I don't gossip publicly about the person and why I placed him on ignore. Not nice.
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,760
3,215
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What are the elements/rudiments [stoicheîon] in Galatians 4:3 & 9; Colossians 2:8 & 20; Hebrews 5:12 and 2 Peter 3:10 & 12? Are the elements that will "melt with fervent heat" suddenly referring to the chemical elements in the earth in 2 Peter 3:10 & 12 because you want it to be that way so you can turn the Bible's normal use of metaphor and hyperbole in Apocalyptic literature into something literal?

4747 στοιχεῖον stoicheîon, stoy-khi'-on
something orderly in arrangement, i.e. (by implication) a serial (basal, fundamental, initial) constituent (literally), proposition (figuratively):--element, principle, rudiment.
Perhaps the scripture below isn't literal, just more symbolic metaphor, Sodom and Gomorrah was just a fairy tale, no literal future fire as explained

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spiritual Israelite

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2020
3,053
1,206
113
Africa
zaoislife.blogspot.com
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?
You claim that the resurrected body will be tangible when you argue against Davy's assertion that it's not the body that died that gets resurrected in a non-flesh-and-blood, incorruptible, immortal state. Yet you cannot imagine a tangible New Heavens and New Earth?

So if you can tell me how the resurrected body will be tangible but not the NHNE, and if you can tell me exactly who those outside of New Jerusalem are that are spoken about in Revelation 21:26 and Revelation 22:15, and who the kings are who bring their honor into New Jerusalem, then you can convince me that you have sufficient knowledge and understanding for me to pay attention to what you're arguing against.