What is so wrong with Calvinism ?

[ChristisGod]

its only because of a lack of Biblical knowledge that anyone rejects calvinism.

That is simply not true. I can just as easily say its because of true Biblical knowledge led by the Holy Spirit that one will reject calvinism/ tulip.

hope this helps !!!

 

[ChristisGod]

romans 9 is a great place to start if you want to see your true nature. Paul spells a lot out, plainly; election, total depravity, and so much more. If you reject romans 9, well, as with bob, i suppose its just heretics heretic’ing.

presbyterians do have a few different denoms, OPC and PCA are the most true and conservative of the bunch.

when you read the Q&A, it should have answered a question for you. Something like this;
“Is salvation the result of divine election?

The Bible teaches that mankind is dead in trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1, 5). Being spiritually dead, man has no “free will.” He must sin because that is his nature—to rebel against God and his rule (Rom. 6:16). However, man is also a free moral agent, meaning he does what he wants to do, and generally speaking he will always act in what he believes is his own self-interest and against the interests of the Lord. Least of all will he repent of his sins and accept God’s offer of redemption in Christ.

How, then, can anyone be saved? It can happen only by a miraculous work of God by which the rebellious heart is transformed. This is what the Bible calls the “new birth” or being “born again” (John 3:1–8). And this is exactly what happens to the elect. At some point in his or her life, the elect person will by the grace of God hear the Gospel, be acted upon by the Holy Spirit and be given a new heart (John 10:27).

We do not choose to be born again. We choose Christ because we are born again. The renewed heart will always choose to repent and follow Christ as Savior.”

Thats what you should have seen.

Loraine Boettner has stated on p. 59 of his book, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination,

"prove any one of them true and all of the others will follow as logical and necessary parts of the system. Prove any one of them false and the whole system must be abandoned."

I have already proven irresistible grace is not true with several passage. Acts 7:51
I have proven the atonement is not limited- John 1:19, John 3:16, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 2 Peter 3:9 prove its false
I have proven that election is not unconditional- whosever will may come, that means all, everyone

Its why I have abandoned the doctrines since 3 middle three are wrong for sure.

hope this helps !!!

 

[ChristisGod]

you abandoned calvinism because the weight of your sin proved too much. I see it all the time. People wanna be a calvinist because its cool or something, then they realize wait a minute, wheres all this joy and assurance they said i would have. Then they quickly run away because calvinism hurt their feelings. Revolting.

i am a calvinist, and will remain a calvinist. Why? It convicts me more than any other doctrine for sure, and that is a good thing.

I have been one for over 40 years and know all the doctrines and history. I've taught it for decades. I know its strengths and its weaknesses.

It begins with a misconception of who God is with the Trinity's main attribute- Love. I proved this in the OP.

hope this helps !!!

 

[ChristisGod]

you didnt prove anything except to those who hated calvinism to begin with.

I sure did with the ULI in tulip today. Read the scriptures

 

[ChristisGod]

you didnt prove anything except to those who hated calvinism to begin with.

Grace is Resistible !

Acts 7:51
“You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

Matthew 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Matthew 23:37
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those having been sent to her! How often would I have gathered together your children, the way in which a hen gathers together her chicks under the wings, and you were not willing!

Proverbs 1:24
Because I have called and you refused to listen, have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded,

Isaiah 65:12
I will destine you for the sword, and you will all kneel down to be slaughtered, because I called and you did not answer, I spoke and you did not listen; you did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."

Isaiah 66:4
So I will choose their punishment and I will bring terror upon them, because I called and no one answered, I spoke and no one listened. But they did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."

hope this helps !!!

 

[BarneyFife]

romans 9 is a great place to start if you want to see your true nature...

Thats what you should have seen.

Absolute, Babylonian madness

And that is what I would have seen if I had read the entire Bible through Romans 9-colored glasses my whole life but I didn't do that so instead I see the Bible as a whole. And what the Bible as a whole says to me is: "God is love."

Whereas the Bible as viewed through a forced interpretation of Romans 9 doesn't say anything like "God is love.

Christ is not mentioned once in Romans 9:6-33. Not... once.

And there seems to be something in your head that tells you that if I just experience the right presentation of the 5-point reformed view of redemption that it will just click for me and I will begin to believe it.

NOT...
GONNA...
HAPPEN.

Have you been born again, chosen Christ, chosen to repent, and begun to follow Christ as Savior?

Your testimony suggests that you live in a perpetual state of unregenerate conviction, waiting for God to, perchance, convert you first, so you can then follow Jesus.
There is no hope in this.
It will end in the unpardonable sin if you do not recognize that today, if you will hear His voice, is the appointed day of salvation.

God is not going to convert you so you can choose Him.

Many are inquiring, “How am I to make the surrender of myself to God?” You desire to give yourself to Him, but you are weak in moral power, in slavery to doubt, and controlled by the habits of your life of sin. Your promises and resolutions are like ropes of sand. You cannot control your thoughts, your impulses, your affections. The knowledge of your broken promises and forfeited pledges weakens your confidence in your own sincerity, and causes you to feel that God cannot accept you; but you need not despair. What you need to understand is the true force of the will. This is the governing power in the nature of man, the power of decision, or of choice. Everything depends on the right action of the will. The power of choice God has given to men; it is theirs to exercise. You cannot change your heart, you cannot of yourself give to God its affections; but you can choose to serve Him. You can give Him your will; He will then work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure. Thus your whole nature will be brought under the control of the Spirit of Christ; your affections will be centered upon Him, your thoughts will be in harmony with Him.

Desires for goodness and holiness are right as far as they go; but if you stop here, they will avail nothing. Many will be lost while hoping and desiring to be Christians. They do not come to the point of yielding the will to God. They do not now choose to be Christians.

Through the right exercise of the will, an entire change may be made in your life. By yielding up your will to Christ, you ally yourself with the power that is above all principalities and powers. You will have strength from above to hold you steadfast, and thus through constant surrender to God you will be enabled to live the new life, even the life of faith.


Here is how it works:

• God builds into every man's heart a need for Christ (a measure of faith);

• The sinner sees the Love of God manifested in his life (Bible, life event, nature, etc.);
• The sinner sees his own sinfulness and experiences a desire to turn from it (repentance);
• The sinner realizes he can't remedy his own sin and sinfulness and appeals to a higher power (confession);
• The sinner turns his case over completely to God (consecration);
• The sinner begins to practice faith and acceptance of his new life and standing with God;
• The sinner learns and experiences the privilege of prayer as the breath of the soul;
• The sinner begins to exhibit the fruit of the Spirit (test of discipleship);
• The sinner begins to recognize a God-given increase in his walk/growth in Christ;
• The sinner becomes established in his life and work for the Master;
• The sinner comes to have substantial knowledge of God by experience;
• The sinner learns to overcome doubt with trust;
• The sinner learns to count every experience, good or bad, with God as joy.

These things (except for the first) do not happen in the same order with all believers and many times lessons overlap and repeat.

 

[ChristisGod]

True grace isnt resistible. If you were able to resist it, then it wasnt from God.

I just proved from both Testaments God can be resisted. Grace comes from God therefor it is resisted. The passages contradict your position. This is where ones "dogma" interferes with the truth from Gods word and becomes a "blind-spot" and one only sees the bible through the lens of "tulip" rather then allowing the bible to dictate ones doctrines/beliefs. This is the bias which "calvinism" operates on those "assumptions" with the doctrines of grace to which all scripture is viewed from that "systematic" . I should know as I have done that for over 4 decades.

hope this helps !!!

 

[ChristisGod]

“God is not going to convert you so you can choose Him.”

regeneration before faith.

You have it backwards once again. Let the bible show you that its the other way around. Here we have from both Testaments the biblical order.

Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Notice what comes first

1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.

John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.

John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Same order as above receive, believe then the new birth follows.

John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.

Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.

Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.

Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.

See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?

 

[BarneyFife]

“God is not going to convert you so you can choose Him.”

regeneration before faith.

"Say it long enough, loud enough, and often enough and they'll believe it!"—Joseph Goebbels

 

[ChristisGod]

“God is not going to convert you so you can choose Him.”

regeneration before faith.

And btw I can already tell I know calvinism much better than you do. I can make much better arguments to support or defend calvinism than you can.

You should learn from @reformed1689 . He knows his calvinism well.

hope this helps !!!

 

[reformed1689]

I would humbly suggest a more charitable approach to others, taking the time to understand people and show them Christ’s love. Slapping around labels doesn’t encourage anyone to learn or grow in Christ.

Of course another cult member would say this.

 

[reformed1689]

Then spend the time to work with that INDIVIDUAL for where they have gone astray. Again, with charity or you are just a clanging cymbal. Flaming and slapping around labels doesn’t help anyone come to Christ.

Mormons aren't with Christ.

 

[reformed1689]

No the point is that John Calvin interpreted Scripture properly in his commentaries, then turned around and reversed everything in his Institutes in order to promote Reformed Theology. Had he not done so, Calvin would have had the same Gospel as those who reject TULIP.

Oh brother. There is nothing wrong with the institutes in soteriology or in his commentaries, nor do they disagree.

 

[reformed1689]

them SDA’ers are as crafty as the JW and mormons. They are to be avoided.

Or exposed. One of the two.

 

[ChristisGod]

Oh brother. There is nothing wrong with the institutes in soteriology or in his commentaries, nor do they disagree.

I just picked up this book and here is a summary :

Walls’s book is short, and pulls no punches. The title gives away Walls’s main contention: despite the endless rounds of debates between Calvinists and Arminians regarding the nature and extent of God’s sovereignty, his omnipotence, and his purposes in salvation, the heart of what’s wrong with Calvinism is that, when consistently followed to its logical end, it teaches that God does not truly love everyone. This is deeply problematic from both a theological and biblical standpoint, as a perfect divine being must love everyone without fail (or by definition he would not be God) and as revealed Scripture avers that love is so integral to God’s character that it can be described as part of his essence (“God is love” in 1 John 4:8, 16).

Before he gets there, however, Walls covers some basic issues. In chapter 1 Walls notes that classic Calvinist texts have long overlooked the importance of God’s love. The Westminster Confession of Faith (WCF), in answer to the question “What is God?” names essential attributes of God but notably leaves out love; and not once in the almost 2,000 pages of John Calvin’s Institutes of the Christian Religion does he cite either 1 John 4:8 or 1 John 4:16. In chapter 2, Walls reviews some basic theological systems, contrasting Calvinism’s TULIP acronym with Arminianism’s FACTS or ROSES. Walls then summarizes the doctrines of unconditional election, eternal security, and the fate of the non-elect according to Calvinism, pointing out that the WCF goes so far as to assert that God was pleased to ordain some people to wrath for their sins so that God’s glory and justice might be made known. Walls lingers on this last consideration, noting that whatever reason God has for not electing the reprobate when he could of is inscrutable to us humans, a situation that often propels Calvinists to emphasize God’s sovereignty and control instead of actually offering a theodicy in light of eternal damnation. The chapter ends with a brief discussion of limited atonement according to Calvinism, historically understood as Christ dying only for the elect, not Christ’s death being applied only to the elect. In other words, Christ’s death did not atone for the sins of the non-elect or purchase their redemption in any way—despite what 1 John 2:2 says.

The doctrine of irresistible grace is the focus of chapter 3. Calvinism usually distinguishes between two kinds of gospel calls: the general call that goes out to everyone, and the effectual call which is meant only for God’s elect. Supposedly, such a distinction allows Calvinists to preach the gospel as a genuine offer, even if the unbelievers they preach to are not elect. What makes the effectual call irresistible is that it is God who opens the eyes of the lost, softens their hearts, restores their corrupted will, and gives them the faith to believe so that they might be saved. On this Arminians and Calvinists agree: that we are completely helpless to save ourselves apart from God’s gracious initiatory work to reveal his salvation and draw us to himself. Yet while Calvinists understand God’s salvific work as being his alone, Arminians believe that each person has a part to play that is up to them—namely, receiving and believing in the gospel of Christ. Given this, Calvinists face a problem: if salvation is accomplished by God alone and is in no way dependent upon humans, what prevents the general call and effectual call from being coterminous? If God is the one who alone makes the general call irresistible and thus effectual, what is preventing him from granting everyone irresistible grace and thereby saving all? Since Calvinists hold to compatibilistic forms of human freedom, which claim that theological determinism and human freedom are compatible, God could causally determine everyone to freely believe and be saved. This realization casts doubt upon the justice of God’s judgment: if the reprobate refused a call that they could not have accepted because God did not grant them the irresistible grace needed to believe, how can God hold them morally accountable and justly judge them? As Walls pithily sums it up, “For the elect, God makes them an offer they literally cannot refuse, but those who are not elect receive an offer they literally cannot accept” (27).

In chapters 4-5, Walls presents his strongest case against Calvinism with the following deductive argument (which itself is a shortened version of a longer and more complex argument of Walls’s in a 2011 article in Philosophia Christi, “Why No Classical Theist, Let Alone Orthodox Christian, Should Ever Be a Compatibilist”):

1. God truly loves all persons.
2. Not all persons will be saved.
3. Truly to love someone is to desire their well-being and to promote their true flourishing as much as you properly can.
4. The well-being and true flourishing of all persons is to be found in a right relationship with God, a saving relationship in which we love and obey him.
5. God could give all persons “irresistible grace” and thereby determine all persons to freely accept a right relationship with himself and be saved.
6. Therefore, all persons will be saved.

The Calvinist upholds premises 1-5, which if true, necessarily yield premise 6. Yet premise 2 and 6 are contradictions, showing that at least one of the other premises is false. The Arminian can resolve the tension by rejecting premise 5 (replacing irresistible grace with prevenient grace, which only makes it possible for all persons to be saved), but what is the Calvinist to do? Premises 1, 2, and 5 are strongly held by most Calvinists, so that leaves premise 3 or 4 open to question. Yet these two premises work in tandem to flesh out what it means to love someone (i.e., to will the good of another), and especially what it means for God to love humans—the pinnacle of his creation—whom God made specifically for fellowship with him. Given that the WCF famously declares that the chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever, it is puzzling, if not outright incoherent, for Calvinists to claim that God can truly love someone but not bring about their salvation (especially since God can determine all people to freely believe by granting them irresistible grace). One cannot glorify God and enjoy him forever in Hell.

Thus the Calvinist finds himself in a pickle: affirm that God loves all people and you must consequently affirm salvific universalism; deny universalism and this requires denying that God truly loves all people. Walls demonstrates that the consistent Calvinist cannot both affirm God’s universal love and hold that only some will be saved, and thus, “A fully consistent Calvinist who truly understands unconditional election, limited atonement, and irresistible grace will deny that God loves all persons” (34). Since Scripture clearly teaches that God both loves everyone and that some will forever perish, Walls’s argument in conjunction with the biblical data provides a defeater to Calvinist theology.

Most Calvinists respond to the above argument by differentiating various kinds of divine love. How is it that God genuinely loves the non-elect when true love would compel him to bring about their salvation? By distinguishing between (1) God’s providential love for creation, (2) his salvific stance toward fallen humanity (God’s general call), and (3) his particular and effective love toward the elect (God’s effectual call), God can be said to truly love the non-elect because he loves them in the first two senses. The problem with this is that anything short of loving someone unto salvation—if one is able to do this—is not really love. “Loving” a person by sending the sun and rain, or holding out the offer of salvation knowing they cannot accept it, is a hollow and meaningless “love” that would only come from a capricious God. As Jesus says in Matthew 16:26, “For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and yet forfeits his soul?” Apart from coming to know God through Jesus Christ and glorifying and enjoying him forever, the benefits from God’s lesser loves are futile.

Despite the Calvinist’s protestation that God has other goals he desires to accomplish through the reprobate—the full manifestation of his glory, wrath, and justice—the idea that damnation makes possible other greater goods falls flat once we realize that the greatest good for humanity and the greatest glory for God is for us to know God and enjoy him forever, which is what Christ’s atonement is all about. It becomes clear in this light that consistent Calvinist theology not only denies that God loves everyone but also obscures the gospel message of Jesus Christ himself.

In the second half of the book (chapter 6), Walls writes beautifully about a theology of divine love. He lays out more thoroughly an Arminian/Wesleyan understanding of God’s universal love, the death Christ died for all because of that love, and the genuine opportunity for salvation that is consequently made available to all. This message of love, hope, and redemption is still needed in our broken world, and if Walls’s book can help clear away the philosophical and theological cobwebs to enable Christians to more clearly proclaim this gospel, then it is well worth reading.

Does God Love Everyone? The Heart of What is Wrong with Calvinism | Denver Seminary

 

[ChristisGod]

1 Corinthians 13

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

we know in part and we prophesy in part, when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. now we see in a mirror dimly, but qthen face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as rI have been fully known.

13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

No, God doesnt love everyone. Did He love esau? Did He love judas? No.

John 1:29
The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Of course another cult member would say this.

When you yourself aren’t willing to actually talk with another person, to understand what they really believe and show that interest in truth, and instead just want flame….

No Christian, of any denomination, has need to flame others. Or to fear sitting down with them to understand. Rather, Christ is the joy and hope of all, and there is no need to fear.

souls are not saved by flaming, but by charity and showing love. God & His love saves, not men’s insults.

 

[ChristisGod]

No, God doesnt love everyone. Did He love esau? Did He love judas? No.

Do you know what Calvin said about John 1:29 ?

Calvin said this about John 1:29 the lamb who takes away the sins of the world .

Who taketh away the sin of the world. He uses the word sin in the singular number, for any kind of iniquity; as if he had said, that every kind of unrighteousness which alienates men from God is taken away by Christ. And when he says, the sin Of The World, he extends this favor indiscriminately to the whole human race; that the Jews might not think that he had been sent to them alone. But hence we infer that the whole world is involved in the same condemnation; and that as all men without exception are guilty of unrighteousness before God, they need to be reconciled to him. John the Baptist, therefore, by speaking generally of the sin of the world, intended to impress upon us the conviction of our own misery, and to exhort us to seek the remedy. Now our duty is, to embrace the benefit which is offered to all, that each of us may be convinced that there is nothing to hinder him from obtaining reconciliation in Christ, provided that he comes to him by the guidance of faith.John Calvin: Commentary on John - Volume 1 - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

hope this helps !!!

 

[ChristisGod]

When you yourself aren’t willing to actually talk with another person, to understand what they really believe and show that interest in truth, and instead just want flame….

No Christian, of any denomination, has need to flame others. Or to fear sitting down with them to understand. Rather, Christ is the joy and hope of all, and there is no need to fear.

souls are not saved by flaming, but by charity and showing love. God & His love saves, not men’s insults.

And there are some who think "calvinism" is a cult and false teaching. So it works both ways.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

And there are some who think "calvinism" is a cult and false teaching. So it works both ways.

I myself PASSIONATELY disagree with Calvinism and find it to be very twisted. But there’s no need to flame the believers or their beliefs. I’ve spent much time talking with Calvinist believers, striving to understand why &!how the believe as they believe as they do. I strive to show them love & respect, even though I so believe passionately disagree.