Dead to the Law, not the Law is Dead

[robert derrick]

I'm not sure what you refer to there in the underlined part.

As I agree with you, that my writing style tends to be in prolonged sentences.

The point is that the lawless teach the whole law of God on paper is now nailed, dead, and gone, not just parts of the law of Moses.

And so they say they cannot sin against any law written on paper, not even in Scripture of the apostles.

The only law they go by is what they determine is written only in their hearts and minds, without any objective law on paper to rule against them.

You see the point? I'm trying to be clear about what they teach. This is not my teaching, but only an exposure of their lawless doctrine for Christ.

Lord Jesus didn't come to do away with all of God's laws, as He showed in Matthew 19. So many of God's laws that are 'written' in the Old Testament are still in effect today, thus it is not wise to speak against that as if done away, remember 1 Timothy 1 that the law was not made for the righteous?

We agree.

I well understand about those who think under Christ they have a license to sin. Apostle Paul dealt with those same types in his day. So how will they know IF they sin, if they don't know what God approves of and what He doesn't? Like Paul said, and I again quote, "Nay, i had not known sin, but by the law:" (Romans 7:7). Doesn't matter what Bible version you use, they all pretty much repeat that like the KJV does.

Rom 7:7
7 Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, "You must not covet."
New Living Translation

Their whole delusion is that the only law that can judge them is what is written in their hearts, No law on paper can do so.

Scripture on paper cannot judge them: Scripture on paper has been disannulled as law.

The only Scriptures they care for as those they say guarantee they are going to heaven.

The only Scripture of law of God in this world today is what they believe is written in their hearts and minds.

That is why they can never been convicted nor convinced of sin by any quoted Scripture of God on paper: it can't be applied to them.

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

They have ridden themselves not only the burden of the law, but the law itself: they have thrown the baby out with the bath water, rather than simply repent and receive Christ Himself, that they may love to do His law on earth, even as He Himself does in heaven.

 

[Behold]

I well understand about those who think under Christ they have a license to sin.

No believer believes they have a license to sin.
You are stating a bumper sticker that you can't prove.
Show us a person, member, or Denomination, that teaches..>"we are going to heaven, so, lets sin as much as we like on the way there".
You can't..
This is an ILLUSION, created by deceived people , who have been led to accept a queer idea regarding the "Gospel of the Grace of God", that has no foundation in reality, regarding the Body of Christ.

 

[GEN2REV]

I am not interested in discussing this issue with you further.

Makes my day. I've been through it all countless times. Saves me the trouble.

I will simply point out, in my defense, that you brought up the Sabbath in post #4. Not me. My main thrust of the debate was the entirety of the 10 Stone Commandments. Of which, of course, the Sabbath is a part.

Have a great day.

 

[Davy]

No believer believes they have a license to sin.
You are stating a bumper sticker that you can't prove.
Show us a person, member, or Denomination, that teaches..>"we are going to heaven, so, lets sin as much as we like on the way there".
You can't..
This is an ILLUSION, created by deceived people like you, who have been led to accept a queer idea, that has no foundation in reality, in the Body of Christ.

That is a radical... response, and really shows you don't know your Bible.

Exactly what is happening today with many congregations is they are being WRONGLY taught that they can't sin anymore. That is what the 'once saved, always saved' doctrines of the devil is causing them to do, to live in sin and think nothing of it, which IS... the idea of thinking to have a license to sin, the very matter Apostle Paul contended with among new converts to Christ in his day...

Rom 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Paul didn't say we have a license to sin. Nor did he say there that having believed on Jesus that we are automatically made free from sin. He is talking about our 'walk' with Christ Jesus, and to walk "in newness of life", and not in our old ways which was a walk in sin.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

We are to consider our old man as crucified with Jesus, and walk accordingly, not serving sin, until our body of sin (the flesh) is destroyed at His coming.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over Him.
10 For in that He died, He died unto sin once: but in that He liveth, He liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Those in Christ are reckon ourselves to be dead to sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ. But wait... don't stop Paul there, he has more to say on that...

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Don't let sin get control over your flesh body with obeying its lusts. Don't yield yourselves to sin, but instead unto God. Being under grace thus means checking ourselves for sin and not allowing the fleshy lusts to take control over us. There Paul strongly contrasts walking in righteousness vs. walking in sin.

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Did believing on The Gospel simply make those free from sin? All their past sins were remitted by Christ, that is true, but not their future sins they would slip up and do in the future, otherwise why is Paul warning them about their future 'walk' here?

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

That 21st verse should be an eye-opener. Because their past behaviors Paul brought to their attention were sins until death. And now that they know those were things opposite of righteousness and holiness, they recognized it and thus were ashamed!

So exactly HOW did those new converts to Christ 'know' they had been living a sinful life? In the next Romans 7 chapter, Paul says he had not known sin except by God's law. So that is how they were made to understand the difference. The Old Testament is what Apostle Paul was teaching from, quoting the OT in his Epistles often for examples. Paul showed them the things of unrighteousness, because like Paul said in 1 Timothy 1, the law wasn't made for the righteous, but for the lawless and unrighteous, the ungodly and sinner. And by The Holy Spirit, their hearts were convicted of the unrighteous life they had been living.

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
KJV

Do you not see how Paul contrasts that "fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life" against that, "For the wages of sin is death"? He is showing us the two walks, one in Christ unto good works waiting til the day of His coming, vs. a walk with living in sin, which is until eternal condemnation.

 

[Behold]

That is a radical... response, and really shows you don't know your Bible.

Exactly what is happening today with many congregations is they are being WRONGLY taught that they can't sin anymore.

Name one congregation or denomination that teaches this??
Name one Preacher who teaches that we can't "sin anymore".?

 

[Behold]

. Nor did he say there that having believed on Jesus that we are automatically made free from sin.

If you are not made free from your sin, by the Cross of Christ, then you are still in your sin, and are going to hell.
You can't be born again, and have sin.
Jesus has it, or you have it.
Can't be both.

 

[Behold]

Don't let sin get control over your flesh body with obeying its lusts. Don't yield yourselves to sin, but instead unto God. Being under grace thus means checking ourselves for sin

If you are checking yourself for sin, and confessing sin, then you are sin conscious.

Paul was not...>He said this..."Christ always gives me the VICTORY"...... over sin, over the flesh, and over the devil.

That is the "fullness of the stature of Christ" that is to be "as many as are perfect", ....Paul teaches.

You are not that, as you have defined yourself

 

[Davy]

Name one congregation or denomination that teaches this??
Name one Preacher who teaches that we can't "sin anymore".?

They are right here on this forum, I've conversed with them. They completely REJECT the 1 John 1 Scripture for believers needing to REPENT and ask FORGIVENESS of Christ for future sin. They even say they cannot sin... anymore because of believing on Jesus Christ!

If that isn't an invitation TO SIN by the devil and his children, then I don't know what is.

 

[Behold]

Did believing on The Gospel simply make those free from sin?

Believing the Gospel causes God to give you the new birth.

Its the renewed mind that understands that Christ in you, is your power to live the perfected discipleship.

This is why Paul said that it it not Him who lives........but Christ in Him.
That is Paul, in submission to the Power of the Grace of God, as "Christ always gives me the Victory"

 

[Davy]

If you are not made free from your sin, by the Cross of Christ, then you are still in your sin, and are going to hell.
You can't be born again, and have sin.
Jesus has it, or you have it.
Can't be both.

And THERE IT IS, just like I was saying.

If what you said in bold above were true, then it means to STRIKE OUT what Paul was teaching in Romans to believers about continuing sin. And it would mean to SCRAP 1 John 1 also where Apostle John told us to REPENT and ask Jesus FORGIVENESS of future sin we may commit. And you WILL slip up and commit future sins, simply because all born in this flesh (except Jesus) have been concluded under sin so that the Promise by Faith would be given to those who believe on Jesus Christ (Gal.3:22). That means ONLY Jesus could come in the flesh and live a completely sinless life. We can't be perfect in the flesh, but only COUNTED perfect through Christ's Blood shed on the cross, and that's the difference.

 

[Behold]

"For the wages of sin is death"?

The payment for sin, the wages, would be that "your sin will find you out."
Also, "sowing and reaping".
These are earthly wages., for sinning.
Paul also teaches that if a believer continues to live in a hardened rebellion, then you will DIE Physically, but not eternally.

The only sin that damns you, is Christ rejection... as that is an Eternal Sin, Judged in Eternity by Eternal God.

See this DAMNATION verse....... as it only represents ONE SIN.......... John 3:36

 

[Behold]

They are right here on this forum,.

You said a "congregation".
Now you are walking that back to..>"well, i meant, some members here".

So, as i was showing you.
You are first of all, not understanding what you are talking about, and then you are exaggerating for "effect", this OSAS, nonsense.

There is no such thing as OSAS, except to people like you, who have been taught to think about the Grace of God, in a way that subverts it.

 

[Behold]

And THERE IT IS, just like I was saying.

You do not understand that the body is dead because of sin.
Got that?
So, what is LEFT?
WHAT IS LEFT, if the "body is dead because of sin", Mr OSAS obsessed?

A.) THE BORN AGAIN SPIRIT........and this is ONE WITH GOD, in CHRIST, .. And there is no sin found there.

Let me show you again.
The born again, SPIRIT< is "seated in Heavenly places in CHRIST"
You know this verse, right?
Sure you do.
So, how can a Born Again Spirit, be in Heaven, and have SIN?

So, you do not know what you are talking about, and you just want to be heard.
You need attention.
What you need to do, is listen to someone who knows some things that you need to LEARN.

 

[Davy]

If you are checking yourself for sin, and confessing sin, then you are sin conscious.

Paul was not...>He said this..."Christ always gives me the VICTORY"...... over sin, over the flesh, and over the devil.

That is the "fullness of the stature of Christ" that is to be "as many as are perfect", ....Paul teaches.

You are not that, as you have defined yourself

Sin conscious, wow, that's a new one. Is that like being aware of sin in our lives?

Just by your going directly opposite of God's written Word on the matter shows you have SINNED against the Scriptures, and need to repent and ask Jesus forgiveness...

1 John 1
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

John is speaking to BELIEVERS ON CHRIST JESUS, so none of that stupid, "Oh John changed who he was speaking to at this point."

5 This then is the message which we have heard of Him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

You imply that you can't have sin anymore, thus you REJECT what Apostle John taught here.

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
KJV

Even in the prayer to The Father that Jesus gave His Apostles and us in Luke 11 has the asking of God to forgive our sins, and those who sin against us! So you NEVER say that prayer?

 

[Davy]

The payment for sin, the wages, would be that "your sin will find you out."
Also, "sowing and reaping".
These are earthly wages., for sinning.
Paul also teaches that if a believer continues to live in a hardened rebellion, then you will DIE Physically, but not eternally.

The only sin that damns you, is Christ rejection... as that is an Eternal Sin, Judged in Eternity by Eternal God.

See this DAMNATION verse....... as it only represents ONE SIN.......... John 3:36

What you are following is called 'absolutism'. Even the BEST follower of Jesus Christ today still slips up at times and commits a sin!

And you obviously have with going against the Scriptures about this.

 

[Davy]

You said a "congregation".
Now you are walking that back to..>"well, i meant, some members here".

So, as i was showing you.
You are first of all, not understanding what you are talking about, and then you are exaggerating for "effect", this OSAS, nonsense.

There is no such thing as OSAS, except to people like you, who have been taught to think about the Grace of God, in a way that subverts it.

Just like a SINNER, now you are MAKING UP LIES!

I have never claimed to believe on man's false OSAS doctrine. That's YOU that believes that, not me.

And now that I come to think of it, I believe YOU WERE IN ON past conversations going against Apostle John in the 1 John 1 Chapter with you're trying to deny that you have need for repentance after first belief on Jesus.

 

[Davy]

You do not understand that the body is dead because of sin.
Got that?
So, what is LEFT?
WHAT IS LEFT, if the "body is dead because of sin", Mr OSAS obsessed?

You don't like me speaking out against that silly OSAS doctrine, do you? That is the doctrine you are showing you believe here. Sorry, but it is a false doctrine designed by devils to TRICK congregations into following the ways of the world, continuing to sin.

That is what happens when the believer thinks they have no need to be AWARE OF SIN in their lives, and thus refuse to see the NEED to repent!

If the dime-store JUNK you believe in with man's OSAS doctrines were true, then SCRAP all those warnings Lord Jesus gave to the five Churches in Asia with telling them to REPENT!

 

[Robert Gwin]

There is a delusional teaching that the law of God is dead on paper, and so no man can be judged and condemned by it.

They say that no man can sin anymore against the written law of God, because it no longer exists on paper and thus has no power to condemn any man transgressing it.

Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

There say there is no law now on paper, and so there is no possible transgression against it.

What Scripture is saying, is that if it is not written in Scripture, then it is no law of Christ, but only commandment and tradition of man added to God's word:

But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Scripture says them receiving Christ are dead to the law, not the law of Christ is dead.

There is still the law of God written on paper in Scripture: the law of Christ written by the apostles.

The law of Christ written by Moses on stone and paper is nailed to the cross and dead, not the law of Christ written by His apostles today for His NT.

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Everyone doing these things are the unrighteous that shall not inherit the kingdom of God, and any belief that it is not so, whether by faith or grace, is just as delusional as the false teaching that the law of Christ written in Scripture is not alive with power to judge and condemn:

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Rejecting Christ's word written in Scripture as law on paper only, and so not to be obeyed, is already judged as a transgression, not matter what vain imagination of faith they have written into their own hearts and minds.

When people speak of the Law, most think of the Law covenant handed down to God's people through Moses Rob, however Jesus was the end of that Law, not particularly the laws themselves, rather the covenant. We are under a new covenant, and many of those laws are in fact still in place for us Christians. We call the laws we are under today, the law of the Christ sir. Gal 6:2

 

[Behold]

Sin conscious, wow, that's a new one.

"sin consciousness" is not a new one.
Its just new to you.
Paul talked about it in Hebrews 10:2

"""For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins."""


So, in this chapter, Paul is talking about the law, and how the law can't remove sin consciousness.

Its the Blood of Jesus, that can do this, as the blood atonement is able to purge you sin, and remove it, where the law never can, and thats one more FAIL of the Law.

 

[Davy]

"sin consciousness" is not a new one.
Its just new to you.
Paul talked about it in Hebrews 10:2

"""For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins."""


So, in this chapter, Paul is talking about the law, and how the law can't remove sin consciousness.

Its the Blood of Jesus, that can do this, as the blood atonement is able to purge you sin, and remove it, where the law never can, and thats one more FAIL of the Law.

Oh, I know where Paul said it, which was NOT my point of course.

The expression as written in the majority... of Bible versions is "conscience of sins", NOT 'sin consciousness'. And what's funny is that, even in the version you quote, it is "conscience of sins"!