Does Paul tell is in Romans chapter 7 that we will always sin while in this flesh nature?

[Vengle]

I used to excuse myself for my sins by telling myself that I could expect I would and that this was because Paul had said that we will always sin while wearing this imperfect flesh. But, was I right?

Now, do not confuse me to be saying that I was giving myself permission to sin, for I was not. I believed in trying to do what is good but thought that it was impossible for me to do so perfectly because of my fleshly nature. Was I correct that this is what Paul was saying in Romans chapter 7?

What do you believe?

 

[Prentis]

It says the Lord works in us, by his grace, to will AND to do his good pleasure.

The conquering of our being starts with the will. That would be the experience of Romans 7. It is that where a man has a renewed heart, a desire for the Lord, but his old ways and his old man are strong and hold him back.

As one learns, grows, and matures, the grace of God is enough not only for him to will, but ALSO to do the good pleasure of God.

Ultimately, we wish to arrive where, as Christ, we only do what the Father tells us.

 

[Jake]

In Romans 7:25, Paul tells us that God delivers us from our sin. Christ has already overcome and now is the overcomer in us. 2 Peter 1:1-11 it's a progression, we add to our faith, to knowledge, onto self-control, then perseverance, add godliness, brotherly kindness, and finally agape love, and if we do these things we will not stumble.

1 John, he "tells us these things so we will not sin".

God tells us He empowers us with all the spiritual blessings to live a godly life, if it's not true, why did He promise it?

 

[Vengle]

"As one learns, grows, and matures, the grace of God is enough not only for him to will, but ALSO to do the good pleasure of God."

Thank you Prentis. How can anyone not see or worse, reject, such a beautiful thing!!!

Prentis, I say that the man whose flesh nature ruled and defeated his ability to be faithful was the man before Christ.

And after describing himself before Christ Paul began giving the solution to the problem, not away off in the future, but now!!!

Romans 7:24-25 "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

And in Romans chapter 8 he elaborates on why we no longer need be slaves to that flesh nature letting it defeat us when it desires to do so.

Want proof? Ponder this:

Romans 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

We only yet sin if we are straddling the fence. We only yet sin if we try to keep one foot in the spirit while leaving the other foot in that flesh nature.

We are to put that flesh nature to death. No if , ands, or buts. If we have obeyed that flesh nature be dead by the power given us of God.

Romans 8:12 "Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not tothe flesh, to [have to] live after the flesh."

I inserted the [have to] because that is clearly what Paul said.

How does it work?

Romans 8:11 "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."

When we say that we have to sin as long as we wear these physical bodies we indirectly call Paul a liar.

Galatians 5:16 "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh."

Prentis this is what those who are fearful of works do not see. They believe they have to sin and so they have created illusions of the grace of God and cling fearfully to them. If God does require good works and they have no ability in the flesh to deliver them they see themselves as in a pickle. That is because they are not yet familiar with the true saving power of Christ which transforms a man into that new creation, even doing as Paul said at Romans 8:11.

 

[Prentis]

I like both of your posts.

I agree, Vengle, once a man becomes of who Christ, he knows salvation from the current corruption is in Christ.

Our whole life, we are in the process of this building of Christ in us, that it speaks of in Peter, as pointed out by Jake. We must add to our faith... All those things. And our character must be transformed to be as Christ's.

On the other hand, the moment we totally submit to Christ and turn ourselves completely to him, we are no longer slaves to the flesh and can walk like him. The process actually teaches us to do this very thing.

That's how I understand it.

 

[Vengle]

Amen Jake. I was busy typing that last comment evidently when you posted. I did not mean to ignore you.

But you are exactly on target. Those that think they need no works by their own testimony are saying that they do not walk after Christ. We must conquer if we truly walk after Christ and we can conquer because he demonstrated to us the way.

Prentis, I think I understand and agree with what you just posted but do me a favor and reword that fist line. LOL.

i mean because that first line i am only guessing about what you said.

i mean after the greeting.

 

[Prentis]

LOL oops! I didn't proof read before posting!

I agree, Vengle, once a man becomes of who Christ, he knows salvation from the current corruption is in Christ.

It should read something like... Once a man comes to know Christ, not in terms of knoweldge, but truly knowing him and walking in his life, he experiences salvation from the current corruption of this world, meaning that it is currently available to him to walk by the Spirit, and not the flesh.

 

[prism]

The point of Romans 7 is telling us that we have died to the law as a way of LIFE see especially vs.4.
Rom 7 is essentially showing the futility, due to the weakness of the flesh,to live by the law even as a Christian.
In Christ we died to the law (Rom.7); we died to sin (Rom. 6).
With those two deaths and being now alive to God through Christ's death and resurrection we...

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(Rom 6:11)

and

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
(Rom 7:4)

In 1Cor 15 we have an interesting verse that tie these two together....
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
(1Co 15:54-57)


And does not these last verses sound surprisingly similar to Rom 7:24-25?

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
(Rom 7:24-25)

So how then does the Christian live being dead to the law? Paul summarizes it in Galatians....

For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
(Gal 2:19-20)

 

[Vengle]

Thank you Prentis for clarifying that. Yes, I agree. The experience of the power of Christ becomes noticeable to us from the very moment of TRUE submission. And in it is great power to begin the process of re-creation.

Amen prism. Am I out of line to say that another advantage of dieing to the flesh nature (which means denying one's self as Christ said we must do), is that until we do that we are not really free to hear Christ? (Matthew 17: 5; Mark 9: 7; Luke 9: 35) And if we cannot fully hear we cannot fully comply?

Romans 6:3 "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

 

[veteran]

Gal 3:22
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
(KJV)

Rom 3:23-24
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
(KJV)

The way I see it is like Paul showed in Romans 7. We all... fall short, as it must be, otherwise we wouldn't need Christ Jesus and His Salvation. For this reason, we shouldn't beat ourselves up through little slip-ups we do at times, and get back to our purpose in serving The LORD and preaching The Gospel. I guarantee, even the most faithful follower of Christ has sinned, and will still sin till they die.

 

[Prentis]

The Lord will allow us to experience him, and while his presence is fresh, we are like him, rejoicing in all things and giving without measure. Then it passes...

What matters is whether our characters have changed.

Paul is talking about having experienced the Spirit, and once out of it, seeing that though he desires to please God, his character is not perfected yet. It is the same as when he says 'I have not yet attained'. Though we have received the Spirit, we must then conform ourselves to it, that in all things we would rejoice. It also has to do with having much or little: when Paul says he is content with much or little, he is not talking only physically, by spiritually also. We must learn to have the character of Christ whether filled with the Spirit or having not had the touch of God in days.

God is training us for this very thing. Romans 7 basically speaks of growth pains.

 

[prism]

Amen prism. Am I out of line to say that another advantage of dying to the flesh nature (which means denying one's self as Christ said we must do), is that until we do that we are not really free to hear Christ? (Matthew 17: 5; Mark 9: 7; Luke 9: 35) And if we cannot fully hear we cannot fully comply?

As long as we are living according to the flesh (living in our own strength) it means we are not hearing Scripture's admonitions about the futility of man's efforts, whether it comes from Peter's declaration 'Lord, others may deny you but I will never', or Gideon's over bloated army stripped down from over 22000 to 300 (Judges ch.7)..
All blood bought Christians are free to hear Christ, the problem is we are usually too busy running in our own strength (in the flesh) to TAKE time on Bended knee with an OPEN bible to truly hear from God. Hearing/Abiding/Complying true, with the emphasis on Him conforming us to His image so that we may comply.

 

[Prentis]

Good post prism!

Most men, if not all, need to have their strength broken to finally understand they must rely on the Lord, as Jacob has his hip taken out of it's socket.

When we do things our own way, we get Ishmael's, when we do things through the Lord's way, we receive the promise of the Lord.

 

[RichardBurger]

Gal 3:22
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
(KJV)

Rom 3:23-24
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
(KJV)

The way I see it is like Paul showed in Romans 7. We all... fall short, as it must be, otherwise we wouldn't need Christ Jesus and His Salvation. For this reason, we shouldn't beat ourselves up through little slip-ups we do at times, and get back to our purpose in serving The LORD and preaching The Gospel. I guarantee, even the most faithful follower of Christ has sinned, and will still sin till they die.

I agree. We are free to understand that even though we sin in the flesh we are God's children in the spirit and our sins of the flesh can not condemn us.

 

[Prentis]

It is wrong to say man cannot be free from sin.

God gives us his spirit, that we might taste, and see how his character is. While he is in us, we are full of joy and love. When he leaves, it is so that we would learn and be conformed to him. We must shape our character according to Christ's and crucify the flesh.

There is power in the work of the cross to overcome the old nature and walk in the new.

 

[Jake]

Gal 3:22
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
(KJV)

Rom 3:23-24
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
(KJV)

The way I see it is like Paul showed in Romans 7. We all... fall short, as it must be, otherwise we wouldn't need Christ Jesus and His Salvation. For this reason, we shouldn't beat ourselves up through little slip-ups we do at times, and get back to our purpose in serving The LORD and preaching The Gospel. I guarantee, even the most faithful follower of Christ has sinned, and will still sin till they die.

Everyone stops before they get to the end of Romans 7, this passage is always passed over and ignored, Paul asks who will rescue him, who is His deliverer, and he answers it that Jesus Christ will rescue and deliver him.

He rescues us from sin!

Have you never overcome a sin in your life?

I have overcome sin, several of them, and He does not want to stop with just those sins. God made it so I could not stand the sin, my heart physically hurt, it was painful, I hated those sins. One of them He healed me immediately, I simply did not do that sin anymore. Another sin, I had to confess to someone, it took awhile because I didnt' want to confess it, but it got to the point where I could not hold onto it anymore, and so I did confess and I was healed when I did, it was about me being obedient to Him and in that God healed.

The Bible says we are overcomers in Christ, how? Because Christ lives in believers and He is the overcomer. There is no power in the cross if you don't believe that Christ lives in you and we are now "partakers of the divine nature".

 

[Prentis]

Amen!

We are not called to just survive, but to overcome and reign with him. We are called to glory... This requires power, and he gives us his, by his new life in us.

Obviously, this is also humbling, to know that the calling is so high. We are to strive to enter in!

 

[Vengle]

As I see it, the futility of man's efforts is in the fact that having been killed by sin as a result of the penalty for sin, he cannot now expect that he can unwork that by new works that are good.

That is the value of the baptism into Christ and the cleansed conscience because of it. That is merely saying to us that we need not be labored in our consciences feeling we have to unwork that which is already done. For if we were so labored, that guilt would always interfere with our strngth to hear, let alone to obey per God's instructions, now, in the present.

The clean conscience allows us to look forward instead of back. It is not about excusing us for just anything we might do now, but it is about our not having to carry that back-pack full of old sins.

God, (Acts 14:16) "... in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways."

At that time, (Ephesians 2:2) "... in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience."

At that time, Ephesians 2:3 "... we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

That is what the cleansed conscience has set us free from. But if that were past then it should not longer be in the present. And that is what Paul seeks to get those that would listen to see. It amounts to that we should not accept the grace of God in a way that we excuse those past sins to yet live in the present. Our consciences were not cleansed to allow that.

 

[Prentis]

Amen!

It gives us the ability to 'forget what is behind and press on to the mark of the high calling in Christ Jesus!

 

[Vengle]

Amen Prentis.

Philippians 3:13