Does Paul tell is in Romans chapter 7 that we will always sin while in this flesh nature?

[veteran]

Right, and the reason we groan in the spirit is because that is who we really are. We are vexed by having to drag along this identity that is like a second personality, one who we consciously decided we do not want to be. And that man of sin from Adam is real and a part of us that speaks in agreement with Adam's rebellion as it also wars against who we are and have chosen to be in the spirit. But to give up our fight and to live by the leading of that carnal man of sin speaking within us is to eventually be revealed a son fit for nothing but perdition.

That's why our trying to do right in following Christ is 'counted' as being perfect, even though being just like Him is something we can never achieve in this world. There is a doctrine going around in many Churches today that we can become 'a Christ' ourselves, but it's not any such idea that comes from God's Word. It's an idea that originates with the serpent's temptation upon Adam and Eve of thinking to become their own gods. That may... sound like a drastic comparison, but I assure you, it is not. Every time we admit what Christ Jesus did on the cross for us, we are automatically admitting that we could never fulfill what He did. So although we have the need to try to be perfect in this flesh, we shouldn't beat ourselves up too much with guilt when we continually discover we've failed because of the law of sin in our fleshy members. And like John also said, there is sin unto death, and sin not unto death (1 John 5).

I know you are not promoting a license to sin and I have often thought to myself how refreshing to read your comments because they reflect understanding.

Whether this is progressive or not depends upon what aspect of it we are speaking to. This is happening now: 2 Thessalonians 1:3 ......... And this is happening now: Ephesians 2:21.

Ephesians 2:21 says wet are growing into that HOLY temple, now, not later. And that is no mock holiness if it be that really are in Christ and have lain down in death that man of sin from Adam.

I should have added further about the idea of a progressive attainment to holiness I mentioned, because I intended to include the false idea it's about of actually being able to reach a state of sinlessness in the flesh, which is actually impossible for all except Jesus Christ (Gal.3:22). It doesn't matter who we are, we are still going find ourselves in sin at times, just because of the bondage state our spirit is in with the flesh. So overcoming is not about having reached literal perfection over our flesh, but having stayed in the battle until death of our flesh body or at Christ's coming, i.e., like how Paul mentioned the idea of running a race (1 Cor.9; Heb.12).

No where are we told that after we commit that old man to death that he is supposed to keep getting up over and over again. Instead, from what John tells us we conclude that the rising up of that man means we have not as yet completely committed him to death. The old man yet lives and is yet that first time fighting being put to death.

We fail to see that we have only lain the old man down to die but have not yet gone as far as killing him. That is why we are able to keep taking his hand again and again, lifting him back up as he calls to us.

And that is Johns point. It is about being honest with ourselves about how committed we really are. And if we would be honest about it and continue to try to strengthen our commitment, then we are making progress.

That is what Paul meant when he said, "not as though I have already attained." He had to stretch forward. Stay committed to the process of growth in Christ.

One does not plant a seed and then poof, there is a plant.

I understand the point, but it's still not something we can measure like how man's progressive models work. It's sort of like an old saying at my work, "One awh shucks can mess up a lot of at-a-boys". I see some brethren go down the path of guilt so hard after they have a little mess-up, that it takes them a long time to get back in the race. And it can involve something simple.

Well, Apostle Paul gave admonitions to do righteousness in much of his Epistles. But in Romans 7 he wrote as a consolation so we'd understand when after trying real hard, we still find ourselves at times messing up. He didn't give that so as to make us lose hope, but to help strengthen our Faith in staying in the race until it's over. So then who can be just in measuring our progress? Really our Lord Jesus only can. That's one of the reasons He gave us His Holy Writ and The Holy Spirit to know it.

I recall a pastor of a certain TV ministry years ago who was publically exposed in a sin with prostitutes he'd been dealing with. His wife forgave him, many of his congregation forgave him, but then others didn't. So that was a step backwards in his progression of overcoming sin IF we were to judge like that, but was it really a setback? If he asking Christ, his family, and brethren for forgiveness, and turned away from the sin, then that could only make him a stronger servant if he kept to the plough. So just where does measure of progress regarding sin come in? It's like Paul taught Romans 7, he had not known sin except by being convicted of sin by the law.

He is bringing it now as he teaches us the pure language. And like learning any language we get better at speaking it over time (if we stay committed to learning it). Zephaniah 3:9 is happening now and many are going to weep that they miss the boat (the ark of salvation which is Christ). There are many that speak about as if they have gotten aboard but they are delighted so much to stand outside and just talk about it that they never actually do get aboard. The pure language is learned aboard that ark, not outside of it. And as it took a year of days and nights for Noah's ark to come to rest, all during that time we are being taught for the purpose of growing.

Sorry, I don't see the Zeph.3:9 Scripture as happening now; it's set for after Christ's return, for His future Millennial reign. It's about all... peoples going back to speak the one tongue that was spoken prior to Babel, which was most likely some form of ancient Hebrew.

Zeph 3:8-9
8 Therefore wait ye upon Me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for My determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them Mine indignation, even all My fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of My jealousy.
9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve Him with one consent.
(KJV)

The King James Bible which was influenced (probably unknown to its translators) by a certain amount of heresy leaves the word "salvation" off of 1 Peter 2:2 which actually says: "As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby to salvation."

It becomes obvious when we observe people that old ideas die hard. People tend to hang onto what they were taught and to seek defense for it. Mormon/Psychologist Stephen Covey refers to that as paradigms. A person's previous experiences form their beliefs and those beliefs shape how they see things like wearing tinted glasses.

So because of the belief that salvation is secured from the moment they say "I believe in Christ", many will defend the KJV for leaving "to salvation" out of 1 Peter 2:2.

The silliness of that is that they think the know more than the many other educated Bible translators whose consciences would not let them do that.

Noticing these little things is why I feel even the KJV translators were sincere. They are just subject to the sway of forces as us all.

My point is that the idea that our salvation becomes irrevocably sealed in Christ is false. But that is a whole other discussion. It does shape how we see many other discussions, though.

I really don't read all that into their leaving off Greek soteria in the passage. The context of the milk and new babes Peter mentioned is enough to know he was speaking of the same things Paul did about Salvation (1 Cor.3; Heb.5 in contrast to the "strong meat".)

And what were those things? Well in 1 Cor.3 one of the things it involved was brethren allowing the false working of division created by following men's doctrines, relying on their carnal thinking. In Heb.5, it was about Paul's rebuke of brethren that should have matured to the "strong meat", but were still sucking on the 'milk' instead, being 'unskillful in The Word' and not having the senses exercised towards discernment.

I agree, that's about the idea of growing in Christ, but it's accompanied with the idea of wisdom and understanding in His Word. Sadly, most Churches don't preach the "strong meat", but mostly still the 'milk'. If a Church that covers God's Word as written to the congregation, from Genesis through the end of Revelation, chapter by chapter and line upon line, then THAT Church is going to be on the "strong meat".

I agree with you on that. I have vigorously protested Jehovah's Witnesses making it about our flesh and blood bodies. What that healing is, is the death of that carnality. That takes our physical body out from under slavery to it and thus out from under slavery to sin.

I still prefer how the KJV renders this idea connected with our flesh bodies...

Rom 6:5-8
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him:
(KJV)

That's making a clear pointer to our flesh bodies as being that "body of sin" that is to be destroyed. Whatever glory we have now in Christ while still in our flesh, it's not comparable to the glory that will be revealed in us when Christ comes to redeem our spirit and soul with our putting on the body of the resurrection. That is... what I concentrate on in hope. My main hope for this present state and world, is that many more will believe The Gospel of Jesus Christ and be saved. But as for hope of my flesh, or the things of this world, it's all going to perish. And per the present signs, we don't have much longer to go for that to occur on the day of The LORD.

Yes. I think it is there for us both but for the fine tuning. And as that fine tuning occurs we come closer and closer to speaking that one pure language among us. The language of God. (which I muse that 1 Corinthians 13: 1 is referring to as the tongues of angels.)

I like talking to you. The discussions are edifying.

Thanks, I enjoy it too.

 

[Vengle]

Yes, I find much that I agree with you concerning and I realize that we are all yet in the process of increasing in our knowledge of this. So I am not claiming I have it perfectly understood, either.

My pet saying about Paul's words in Romans chapter 7 are, "What many do not see is that Paul is not speaking about who we should be now in Romans chapter 7 but he is speaking about the man before he enters Christ and what that man's predicament is."

That little bit of acknowledgement changes the appearance of what Paul says in Romans chapter 7.

And I am not saying that Paul speaks of the man before Christ due to my own opinion or estimation of what Paul said there. Paul himself told us that:

Romans 7:5 "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death."
Romans 7:4 "Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should [now] bring forth fruit unto God."
Romans 7:6 "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should [now] serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

So we see that the focus of the first 6 verse is to tell us that what Paul goes on to say is about the old man that we were before Christ. I inserted the [now] to make sure that the reader thinks about how what Paul says in those phrases apply to the rest of what was said in his sentences. For that is what he means. That is what he is saying.

Reasoning is a funny thing. (Or, a not so funny thing.) What we believe we will see is usually what we will see. Not that it will be the reality when we see it, but if we set out looking through eyes wearing tinted glasses of preconceived belief, we will see that which we seek to see. And we will be able to dissect all kinds of verses believing we are doing so properly and logically all the while that preconceived belief is actually fooling us.

We must become empty before we can truly see unhindered. We have to always work up from the premise of knowing little or nothing, as Paul speaks at 1Crinthians 8:2. Else we always will shape what we see to conform to what we want to see.

That Mormon/Psychologist Stephen Covey recognized that in his discussion of paradigms. Many psychologists have written works concerning that tendency in humans. Rational Emotive Cognitive Belief Therapy, (and what have they of the psycho-analytical field), all recognize this truth about our human cognitive nature. And when one understands those concepts but also they have deep belief that the Bible is the Word of God, then they can see that these concepts are taught in the Bible. Our maker is completely aware of how our reasoning functions and has told us certain things to assist us to have clear and sound reasoning.

We should never be afraid to say to ourselves that we might be wrong and actually allow ourselves to set aside what we believe long enough that we can see. Because if we cannot do that then the likelihood is that we will only always ever see what we are wanting to see. And we will never find the truth that belongs to God.

 

[veteran]

Yes, I find much that I agree with you concerning and I realize that we are all yet in the process of increasing in our knowledge of this. So I am not claiming I have it perfectly understood, either.

My pet saying about Paul's words in Romans chapter 7 are, "What many do not see is that Paul is not speaking about who we should be now in Romans chapter 7 but he is speaking about the man before he enters Christ and what that man's predicament is."

That little bit of acknowledgement changes the appearance of what Paul says in Romans chapter 7.

And I am not saying that Paul speaks of the man before Christ due to my own opinion or estimation of what Paul said there. Paul himself told us that:

Romans 7:5 "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death."
Romans 7:4 "Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should [now] bring forth fruit unto God."
Romans 7:6 "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should [now] serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

So we see that the focus of the first 6 verse is to tell us that what Paul goes on to say is about the old man that we were before Christ. I inserted the [now] to make sure that the reader thinks about how what Paul says in those phrases apply to the rest of what was said in his sentences. For that is what he means. That is what he is saying.

Reasoning is a funny thing. (Or, a not so funny thing.) What we believe we will see is usually what we will see. Not that it will be the reality when we see it, but if we set out looking through eyes wearing tinted glasses of preconceived belief, we will see that which we seek to see. And we will be able to dissect all kinds of verses believing we are doing so properly and logically all the while that preconceived belief is actually fooling us.

We must become empty before we can truly see unhindered. We have to always work up from the premise of knowing little or nothing, as Paul speaks at 1Crinthians 8:2. Else we always will shape what we see to conform to what we want to see.

That Mormon/Psychologist Stephen Covey recognized that in his discussion of paradigms. Many psychologists have written works concerning that tendency in humans. Rational Emotive Cognitive Belief Therapy, (and what have they of the psycho-analytical field), all recognize this truth about our human cognitive nature. And when one understands those concepts but also they have deep belief that the Bible is the Word of God, then they can see that these concepts are taught in the Bible. Our maker is completely aware of how our reasoning functions and has told us certain things to assist us to have clear and sound reasoning.

We should never be afraid to say to ourselves that we might be wrong and actually allow ourselves to set aside what we believe long enough that we can see. Because if we cannot do that then the likelihood is that we will only always ever see what we are wanting to see. And we will never find the truth that belongs to God.

Well, you could... intepret Paul's Message in the rest of Romans 7 that way, IF... it weren't for this:

Rom 7:21-25
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
(KJV)

That last verse is not about a time of the "old man" idea, but within the time frame of the "new man" under Christ Jesus.

 

[Vengle]

Well, you could... intepret Paul's Message in the rest of Romans 7 that way, IF... it weren't for this:

Rom 7:21-25
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
(KJV)

That last verse is not about a time of the "old man" idea, but within the time frame of the "new man" under Christ Jesus.

Paul is speaking there at Romans 7:21-25 from the perspective of the man he was and what he felt and the predicament he was in before Christ.

You said: "That last verse is not about a time of the "old man" idea, but within the time frame of the "new man" under Christ Jesus."

As I said, he spent the first 6 verses telling us that what he was about to say would pertain to the former man, the man before Christ. We cannot just ignore that.

The old man does try to serve God with his mind. How else would he do it? That has not changed. All Paul says there is that Christ is the hope for defeating the flesh that fought against serving with the mind.

If the old man did not serve God with his mind there would have been no war between the spirit and the flesh for Paul to speak of.

And all Paul said in verse 25 is that Christ provides the hope to defeat that flesh.

That then sets up for us in words the point or condition we are at or in as we enter our hope who is Christ so that we have the basis for his chapter 8 discussion.

As I said, what we believe is powerful. What we believe is what we will see when we look. And it will always appear perfectly logical.

 

[veteran]

Paul is speaking there at Romans 7:21-25 from the perspective of the man he was and what he felt and the predicament he was in before Christ.

You said: "That last verse is not about a time of the "old man" idea, but within the time frame of the "new man" under Christ Jesus."

As I said, he spent the first 6 verses telling us that what he was about to say would pertain to the former man, the man before Christ. We cannot just ignore that.

The old man does try to serve God with his mind. How else would he do it? That has not changed. All Paul says there is that Christ is the hope for defeating the flesh that fought against serving with the mind.

....

What was that you were saying about deniability in your two previous posts up? Not trying to be foul, for it can apply to yourself just as much as anyone else.

"We should never be afraid to say to ourselves that we might be wrong and actually allow ourselves to set aside what we believe long enough that we can see. Because if we cannot do that then the likelihood is that we will only always ever see what we are wanting to see. And we will never find the truth that belongs to God."

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
(KJV)

The context is;

Paul recognizes how wretched of a state he is in, and asks who shall deliver him from "the body of this death?" He's directly pointing to his flesh body as that "body of this death". Then he thanks God through Jesus Christ our Lord, i.e., thanking Him for that future deliverance, and then says, "So then", which is past tense marker.

His Message is that as we serve Christ with our spirit by The Spirit, our flesh serves the law sin, for that's what it is condemned by. That idea goes along with what he then says later in Rom.8 about figuring the flesh body as already dead, but eternal life to our spirit through Christ Jesus.

 

[Vengle]

Here, I will make it easier for you.

Romans 7:25 "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. ... Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you."

I never said that the flesh is not always there for us to go back to it should our commitment be insincere and we really love that old carnal life above the life we have in Christ. In fact, I very clearly talked about that insincere commitment a couple posts back.

I do appreciate the benefit of being able to discuss these things with others as it is in that discussion that I am made to see things that I did not formerly see.

And this discussion about Romans 7 is a very good example of that, for I see now where my own manner of teaching might lend in places such as this to making it harder for one that has listened to me.

The thing I see is that we (meaning also I) have been guilty of seeing what Paul says in Romans 7 as the contrast between the man that tries to serve God by flesh and the man that serves God by spirit.

Ponder that thought for just a second.

That is a lie. The flesh does not try to serve God. The carnal mind is at enmity with God. Even if it would feign obedience to God it would not really desire to be obedient.

Romans 8:7 "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

Matthew 26:41 "Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."

The flesh is weak because it is lead by the carnal mind (the sin nature) which cares not to serve God but only its own self.

We make the mistake of thinking that Paul is saying he tried to serve God with his flesh. He never said that.

What he said was that he tried to serve God with his mind by that willing spirit but his flesh with its carnal obedience to sin kept interfering. It waged war with the desire of his spirit.

This little tiny piece of understanding greatly affects how we understand what Paul said at Romans 7.

Thank you Veteran.

 

[Israelsson]

I agree with most of what everyone has posted here, but I ask a simple question. What is sin?

"Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness." 1 John3:4 NIV

So we see from John's teaching that in order to sin, one must go contrary to God's Law. So if the law was done away with, how can one sin?

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." Matthew 5:17-18

This is from Jesus' own mouth, and is not meant to be spiritualized away. We are straightforwardly taught that the law is eternal. Jesus died so that we may not worry about keeping sacrificial ordinances any longer. His sacrifice makes atonement for Israels sins. To be lawless, is to work iniquity, Jesus tells us how He feels of this in Matthew 7:23 "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Just keep in mind that sinning isn't merely 'doing bad', there is a biblical definition of sin, and if what you consider sin doesn't fall under this definition, then it isn't sin. Somethings are considered abominations before God, such as a man lying with another man, or adulterating what was created to be 'good' in the eyes of God. Your seed, your generations, Gk. Genos, can be adulterated as can cloth and animals.

 

[Vengle]

I agree with most of what everyone has posted here, but I ask a simple question. What is sin?

"Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness." 1 John3:4 NIV

So we see from John's teaching that in order to sin, one must go contrary to God's Law. So if the law was done away with, how can one sin?

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." Matthew 5:17-18

This is from Jesus' own mouth, and is not meant to be spiritualized away. We are straightforwardly taught that the law is eternal. Jesus died so that we may not worry about keeping sacrificial ordinances any longer. His sacrifice makes atonement for Israels sins. To be lawless, is to work iniquity, Jesus tells us how He feels of this in Matthew 7:23 "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Just keep in mind that sinning isn't merely 'doing bad', there is a biblical definition of sin, and if what you consider sin doesn't fall under this definition, then it isn't sin. Somethings are considered abominations before God, such as a man lying with another man, or adulterating what was created to be 'good' in the eyes of God. Your seed, your generations, Gk. Genos, can be adulterated as can cloth and animals.

The issue is really about trying to sit at the table of God and the table of the devil.

And comes down to what our true heart's desire is.

1 Kings 18:21 "And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word."

What that means, "Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness." (1 John 3:4 NIV) is that when we sin we in effect place our self back under the law; back under the need for external regulation.

That is true because being under grace is not for the purpose of allowing lawlessness, but for the purpose of giving us a clean conscience by the pardoning of "old sins" (2 Peter 1:9) that we have a fresh start to listen to God and do it right.

We cannot serve two masters as John 8:34 says, "Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin."

When we sin we are not taking the purpose of Jesus seriously enough: 1 John 3:8 "He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."

When we begin deciding for ourselves that this is only bad but is not sin, then we make ourselves the law-giver.

Our job is to listen and to obey. And if we are not doing that it is because we are serving two masters.

No one that serves both God and the devil will enter the kingdom of God.

Romans 7:25 "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. ... Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you."

Galatians 5:18 "But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."

So then, conversely, if you are not led by spirit you are under the law. 1 John 3:4 "Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

And if you are led by the spirit the following will be true:

Galatians 5:16 "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh."

As Jesus continued on to say:

Matthew 5: 20 "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Hebrews 10:26 "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins."

2 Peter 1:9 "But he that lacks these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins."

John 8:34 "Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."

1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."

 

[Vengle]

I have noticed that the ESV Bible has committed intentional false translation of certain words to facilitate their belief that it is only the practice of sin that we need be concerned about. The error is far too obvious not to have been intentional.

Let's look at some of the verses I cited in my last post and examine the words that the KJV translates as "committeth" to see if the thought of "practice" can properly be applied.

First I want you to read what Strong's Greek Dictionary says about the Greek word number 4160 "poieo":
_____________________________________________________________________________________
<G4160> poieo -- pronounced: poy-eh'-o

apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary; to make or do (in a very wide application, more or less direct):

Compare 4238
______________________________________________________________________________________

<G4238> prasso -- pronounced: pras'-so

a primary verb; to "practise", i.e. perform repeatedly or habitually (thus differing from 4160, which properly refers to a single act);
_______________________________________________________________________________________

John 8:34 Jesus <G2424> answered <G0611> them <G0846>, Verily <G0281>, verily <G0281>, I say <G3004> unto you <G5213>, Whosoever <G3956> <G3588> committeth <G4160> sin <G0266> is <G2076> the <G9999> servant <G1401> of <G3588> sin <G0266>.

1 John 3:8 He that <G3588> committeth <G4160> <N> <G3588> sin <G0266> is <G2076> of <G1537> the <G3588> devil ..........


This is an outrageous offense that the ESV writers have perpetrated.


4160 "poieo" refers to the singular act of sin but the ESV writers have deliberately altered it to hide that fact so as to facilitate what they desire to believe.


All who love truth should feel offended by such bold and flagrant disrespect of God's Word.


ESV's John 8:34 "Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin."


ESV's 1 John 3:8 "Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil."

 

[Prentis]

Hey Vengle!

Good posts... In Christ Jesus we are made free from sin and it's power! We are to walk in new life.
Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Christ makes us free by faith, and then our character must be shaped so that we would abide in him, and always walk in the Spirit. If we fail after having been made free, it means that we still have need of the renewing of the mind, of adding to our faith, patience, long-suffering... It does not change that freedom is truly there in Christ.

Any scheme that claims to reconcile us to God without actually changing our spiritual reality and truly making us one with Christ is empty religion. If our confession is to be true, it must be a reality and truly bring us into the Spirit!

Blessings to you, brother!

 

[Israelsson]

I have noticed that the ESV Bible has committed intentional false translation of certain words to facilitate their belief that it is only the practice of sin that we need be concerned about. The error is far too obvious not to have been intentional.

Let's look at some of the verses I cited in my last post and examine the words that the KJV translates as "committeth" to see if the thought of "practice" can properly be applied.

First I want you to read what Strong's Greek Dictionary says about the Greek word number 4160 "poieo":
_____________________________________________________________________________________
<G4160> poieo -- pronounced: poy-eh'-o

apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary; to make or do (in a very wide application, more or less direct):

Compare 4238
______________________________________________________________________________________

<G4238> prasso -- pronounced: pras'-so

a primary verb; to "practise", i.e. perform repeatedly or habitually (thus differing from 4160, which properly refers to a single act);
_______________________________________________________________________________________

John 8:34 Jesus <G2424> answered <G0611> them <G0846>, Verily <G0281>, verily <G0281>, I say <G3004> unto you <G5213>, Whosoever <G3956> <G3588> committeth <G4160> sin <G0266> is <G2076> the <G9999> servant <G1401> of <G3588> sin <G0266>.

1 John 3:8 He that <G3588> committeth <G4160> <N> <G3588> sin <G0266> is <G2076> of <G1537> the <G3588> devil ..........


This is an outrageous offense that the ESV writers have perpetrated.


4160 "poieo" refers to the singular act of sin but the ESV writers have deliberately altered it to hide that fact so as to facilitate what they desire to believe.


All who love truth should feel offended by such bold and flagrant disrespect of God's Word.


ESV's John 8:34 "Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin."


ESV's 1 John 3:8 "Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil."

it makes sin become something much less than it truly is.

 

[Vengle]

I found that this idea to translate 4160 "poieo" as though it means "to practice" was Weymouth's interpretation back in about 1902 when he produced his own Greek text, which was called 'The Resultant Greek Testament'. That then was the basis for the 'Weymouth New Testament'.

Also, the 'New World Translation' which is published by the 'Watchtower Bible & Tract Society' does this false rendering. And looking at the NWT's reasoning, it is clearly based upon their interpretation by comparison of other passages of scripture.

I have the Westcot-Hort Greek text with their direct renderings below each word (which the NWT is said to be based upon) and I see that this was not Westcot-Hort's idea to render 4160 "poieo" as though "practice". Therefore I sought to see what the NWT's basis for doing so was and it turns out to be completely interpretive on their part.

The deal is that John is telling us that even a single sin is something we should hate and avoid. If we have the attitude that we are OK to bring any sin at all (even a single unintentional sin) into the body of Christ then we will not take holiness seriously enough.

I have to sarcastically laugh that the NWT reads at 1 John 3:6 "Everyone remaining in union with him does not practice sin; no one that practices sin has either seen him or come to know him."

That is like saying it is OK that we commit an occasional sin so long as we do not make a practice of it. That misses John's point that Christ came to destroy the works of the devil in us and restore us to holiness.

There is not even one sin in that which is holy. And that is what our faith is supposed to be working toward in Christ. That is how it is able to be fulfilled by the time of the marriage of the lamb that, Ephesians 5:27 "That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

Instead of trying harder to understand what John is telling us the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society and Weymouth and the ESV writers thought to assert their own wisdom over the surface of what John said.

And the other parts of scripture they quote as justification do not justify it but in their arrogant minds.

 

[veteran]

Here, I will make it easier for you.

Romans 7:25 "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. ... Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you."

I never said that the flesh is not always there for us to go back to it should our commitment be insincere and we really love that old carnal life above the life we have in Christ. In fact, I very clearly talked about that insincere commitment a couple posts back.

I do appreciate the benefit of being able to discuss these things with others as it is in that discussion that I am made to see things that I did not formerly see.

And this discussion about Romans 7 is a very good example of that, for I see now where my own manner of teaching might lend in places such as this to making it harder for one that has listened to me.

The thing I see is that we (meaning also I) have been guilty of seeing what Paul says in Romans 7 as the contrast between the man that tries to serve God by flesh and the man that serves God by spirit.

Ponder that thought for just a second.

That is a lie. The flesh does not try to serve God. The carnal mind is at enmity with God. Even if it would feign obedience to God it would not really desire to be obedient.

Romans 8:7 "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

Matthew 26:41 "Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."

The flesh is weak because it is lead by the carnal mind (the sin nature) which cares not to serve God but only its own self.

We make the mistake of thinking that Paul is saying he tried to serve God with his flesh. He never said that.

What he said was that he tried to serve God with his mind by that willing spirit but his flesh with its carnal obedience to sin kept interfering. It waged war with the desire of his spirit.

This little tiny piece of understanding greatly affects how we understand what Paul said at Romans 7.

Thank you Veteran.

That war between our spirit that tries to serve God 'perfectly' vs. our flesh which is always there to cause us to stumble at times is all the point I'm trying to make, which is the same point Paul makes in that Rom.7 chapter. As long as we are in this flesh, we are going to be subject to that continual war. Sometimes we're winning big, at others, we fall short. But we're to get back up again and continue, and not just give in, repenting and asking forgiveness.

It's almost like a child in a family. How many times did we upset our parents over something we did? And how many times did they forgive us, and we moved on learning our lesson? As a young child we were forgiven a lot because of innocence. But as we became older, knowing better, our parents got more upset when we'd do stuff clearly out of line. And if we totally went the way of the outlaw, our parents would have to give us up to the law, their no longer being able to control or correct us.

Is this not how it is between us and The LORD? Our flesh parents may love us no matter how bad we might turn, but at some point we place ourselves out of their hands if we go the way of the lawless.

So the way of Paul speaking in Rom.7 about his flesh concerning those in Christ, I don't see that in the 'outlaw' sense, but in little slip-ups, maybe being irate at a brother that didn't deserve it, forgetting, doing stupid things which are not expedient, etc.

 

[Vengle]

That is exactly right Veteran.

And just as the child grows and matures into a person the parent looks proudly upon for that maturity, so also we advance as 2 Peter 3:14 describes: "Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless."

That means at his coming I think.

We have many forces that work against us and those forces had a head start on our walk in the spirit. All I am saying is we do grow to the point where we can be found to be at peace, without spot, and blameless. No credit to ourselves. It is because we have a very patient and capable teacher.

And I believe that God's grace does extend beyond that for those that due the complexities of this life they were weighed down and hindered through no real choice of their own.

I see God as about salvaging if our hearts will at all allow it.

But we must show we are trying and we cannot afford to allow ourselves to see even one small sin as OK.

That does not mean we have to beat ourselves up as we know Christ's sacrifice has us covered.

But neither do we want to speak lightly of sin so that the weaker ones feel justified to be lax in their walk.

It is a balance.

 

[Prentis]

Very true, Vengle!

God has indeed given us the power to overcome. What we need is the working of our character now so that we walk faithfully in that power.

 

[Thankful 1]

I used to excuse myself for my sins by telling myself that I could expect I would and that this was because Paul had said that we will always sin while wearing this imperfect flesh. But, was I right?

Now, do not confuse me to be saying that I was giving myself permission to sin, for I was not. I believed in trying to do what is good but thought that it was impossible for me to do so perfectly because of my fleshly nature. Was I correct that this is what Paul was saying in Romans chapter 7?

What do you believe?

Paul in Romans seven is explaining to us just how impossible it is for one to not sin.

Paul in Romans eight explains to us just how it is that we have defeated Satan/sin.

(Romans 8:1-4) “The reason, therefore, why those who are in Christ Jesus are not condemned, is that the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. God has done what the Law, because of our unspiritual nature, was unable to do. God dealt with sin by sending his own Son in a body as physical as any sinful body, and in that body God condemned sin he did this in order the Law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the spirit dictates.”

Paul tells us that Christians are dead to sin. So if one sins he or she is not a Christian. They are at best baby Christians.

(Romans 6:11 –13) “Consequently, you too must think of yourselves as (being) dead to sin and living for God in Christ Jesus. Therefore, sin must not reign over your mortal bodies so that you obey their desires.

(1 Corinthians 3:1-3) “Brothers, I myself was unable to speak to you as people of the Spirit; I treated you as sensual men, still infants in Christ. What I fed you with was milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it; and indeed, you are still not ready for it since you are still unspiritual. Isn’t that obvious from all the jealousy and wrangling that there is among you, from the way that you go on behaving like ordinary people?”

Paul goes on to tell us:
Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”

 

[bling]

This topic and the use of Romans 7: 14-24 come up a lot and a lot has been written on it.

The context helps and you need to address these questions:

1. When did Paul learn about “coveting”?
2. When did this problem start for Paul?
3. Does Paul continue in the misery and what would relive this misery?
4. Is “just being forgiven” a good solution to the problem?
5. When did Paul obtain the solution?

A lot is made of the fact Paul switched to the present tense in these verses, but was there a reason that the Roman reader might pick up on? You may not realize it but the Gospel of Mark is mostly written in the present tense and maybe for the same reason as Paul writes this passage to the Romans in the present tense.
On every major street corner in Rome was a monument to some great Roman victory, some parts of these monuments are in museums today and below each is given an exciting climatic description of the battle in the “historic present tense”. This was the same description carried by messengers sent out by the general over the Roman Empire, after a great victory.
What Mark describes in his Gospel is a great battle with a climatic victory with Christ rising in the “historic present tense”.
What Paul is describing in Romans 7: 14-24 is a great battle and final climatic victory over sin in the “historic present tense”.
Sin has purpose for the nonbeliever, but what “purpose” does it have in the believer life?
When Deity dwelled unquenched in a human (Christ) it did not sin, so does deity dwell within Christians, so the problem is really the quenching of the Spirit?

 

[Vengle]

This topic and the use of Romans 7: 14-24 come up a lot and a lot has been written on it.

The context helps and you need to address these questions:

1. When did Paul learn about “coveting”?
2. When did this problem start for Paul?
3. Does Paul continue in the misery and what would relive this misery?
4. Is “just being forgiven” a good solution to the problem?
5. When did Paul obtain the solution?

A lot is made of the fact Paul switched to the present tense in these verses, but was there a reason that the Roman reader might pick up on? You may not realize it but the Gospel of Mark is mostly written in the present tense and maybe for the same reason as Paul writes this passage to the Romans in the present tense.
On every major street corner in Rome was a monument to some great Roman victory, some parts of these monuments are in museums today and below each is given an exciting climatic description of the battle in the “historic present tense”. This was the same description carried by messengers sent out by the general over the Roman Empire, after a great victory.
What Mark describes in his Gospel is a great battle with a climatic victory with Christ rising in the “historic present tense”.
What Paul is describing in Romans 7: 14-24 is a great battle and final climatic victory over sin in the “historic present tense”.
Sin has purpose for the nonbeliever, but what “purpose” does it have in the believer life?
When Deity dwelled unquenched in a human (Christ) it did not sin, so does deity dwell within Christians, so the problem is really the quenching of the Spirit?

Thank you for that very insightful information bling. I had never looked at it quite like that before.

It has not been very long ago that a very attractive young woman (I call her a young woman because she was some 15 years younger than myself) waltzed into my life and gave me quite the testing. She had the perfect demeanor and the sweetest words with which to allure my affections. I actually folded under the pressure and two nights in a row fornicated with her.

I am telling you about this that you do know I know the struggle it can be at times. (The struggle used to feel that way most of the time.)

After that first night no sooner than she had left for the day I found myself torn between extreme guilt for having disobeyed God and fondness for how wonderful it felt and how beautiful it seemed to make love to her. The experience brought back memory of how beautiful it was when I was young and was able to be with the woman I loved and married. It was like a rejuvenation had occurred within me and I suddenly felt vibrantly alive again.

Our carnal flesh cries out intensely to us at such times, asking, "How can anything so beautiful be wrong?" And the only answer that I as a lover of God could give that carnal man was, "It is wrong because God said it is wrong and that because he sees that it injures those he loves." With that I thought about the ways that are not necessarily so obvious that it does injure both her and I. And I said in my heart, "God is good and he is right."

But mind you I said that I fornicated with her not once, but twice. And what I just described was only after the first time.

I was determined that when she returned that evening I would sit her down and explain that we could not do this any more and help her to understand why. But it did not work that way. I let that carnal voice tell me one more time that I must be wrong. When on that evening I started to explain to her what I had intended to explain, she found words to help me believe that carnal voice when it told me this is so beautiful there surely can be nothing wrong with it and that certainly God understands that.

I see the things you mentioned at play there, bling.

By the third evening I had re thought the whole thing again and I concluded I was in error again. There I was facing a choice which I am quite capable of making, to just ignore what I know God tells me and make believe he understands that something that feels so beautiful could not be bad. That is a miserable period when we face having to make that decision.

So, what do we do? There are only two choices. Which one will we make?

To me the one I would choose boiled down to the question, "Who do I love the most?" And I chose God. A bit late, for I had already injured myself and her by participating in making that sin seem OK for a time, but I chose to move the right direction out of such misery and I chose God.

I have to live with a spell here now of having loneliness for that tender female companionship, which is quite precious when kept godly pure, enlivened in me because of it. So there is consequence. And I am left only to pray about how it may have injured her. On that third evening after finally becoming forthright to speak at more length with her I found out that though she had talked as though she was a believer in God, she did not believe in marriage and said that she just likes to enjoy sex with those she has affection for.

What a shocker. We parted ways permanently.

 

[Vengle]

So then, what do we do with that kind of experience? Some people just give in to it and live with their conscience tormented and being relegated further and further into the background until one day their conscience is as dead and they no longer care at all.

Then there are those who appear sorrowful and they weep and mourn so that on-lookers conclude they are repentant. But is it that outward appearance of sorrow that proves repentance? Some imagine to themselves that this sorrow is all that repentance is.

Hebrews 12:17 "For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears."

So then judging by the case of Esau, we can see that outward weeping and mourning is not repentance of its self. And after that realization some people who truly are repentant dispense with that weeping and mourning, merely turning from their sin and back to God seeking to learn how to become steady again.

And sometimes on-lookers not seeing that outward weeping and mourning imagine that such a person is not really repentant. It comes down to the fact that such on-lookers also yet have much to learn.

What goes on in a person's mind and heart when we do not see that outward grieving after they have sinned and yet they turn away from that sin and back to the love and good works in Christ?

Faith. Faith in the love of God and the ransom of his Son that it is sufficient when they know inside them that their repentance is real and understand that what shows it is forsaking that sin and returning humbly to God in Christ..

I dare say that has happened to everyone of us at one time or another as regards various kinds of sin.

But does that make it OK that we sin? Can we afford to take our relapses into sin lightly?

And would not repentance also include facing up to the things we did wrong that allowed us to be ripe to have that relapse into sin?

I cannot blame that young woman. It does me no good to blame that young woman and if I did that only would make ripe my hurting her further through gossip. I have to face that I am responsible and no one else. That is a part of repentance. Repentance is not repentance without it. And, I ask God to blame me and not her because I was supposed to be the mature Christian. And that makes me far worse than her.

So we can see a number of things that must be true if repentance is real; if we have not like Esau, "found no place for (true) repentance."

(1) We pray from our heart to God.
(2) We forsake the sin determined never to repeat it.
(3) We blame no one for our sin but our own self
(4) We draw closer to God after that sin knowing God will forgive us and that he is the only one that can teach us what we did wrong, helping us through his knowledge to know what we must do to avoid such sin in the future.
(5) We diligently apply what God has taught us in our life, serving him with heart felt appreciation and joyfulness.


Did I leave anything out?

P.A.S.S. = Prayer - Association - Study - Service

 

[Vengle]

It just occurred to me in looking back over this that there is room for imagination that is ill-founded.

For example, one might assume I spoke of taken advantage of a baby. But 15 years younger than me is yet forty something years of age and was also when what I spoke of took place.

Also, my wife died due to complications of stomach surgery some years ago.

I am merely allowing you to see that I am fully human and that I entertain no false idea of being anything but human. And i hope that will help you see that i am not talking down to you when i disagree with your ideas. Your struggle is my struggle.

All I desire is for you to see that we cannot turn our weakness in the flesh into an excuse not to fully exert ourselves to be obedient in Christ as that is a prerequisite of receiving God's help. That is what repentance is.