The Popular False Justification and False Sanctification View Today.

[Eternally Grateful]

Romans Four & Works of Earning Money vs. Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift:

To him that works his reward is not of grace but it is of debt as if it was some kind of obligation like at a job whereby he works so as to earn money.

"Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation (something owed to him)." (Romans 4:4) (AMPC).​

Verse 4 explains verse 5 that says,

“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” (Romans 4:5).

So we have to understand the term “works not.”

Works Alone or trading dollars for hours like at a job involving salvation is wrong. Works Alone Salvationism (without God’s grace) is wrong because one has no grace or rest ever. This would purely be a works based system of salvation with no grace or mercy (like with Christ) if one messes up. A person’s good deeds have to outweigh their bad deeds.

But this is not the same thing as "Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift."

I believe God's grace is a free gift as Scripture says (Ephesians 2:8). Gifts are received, and then we do works of responsibility to take care of those gifts.

Let me give you an example:

If Rick received a car as a free gift from his dad, does that mean he can run red lights, drive drunk, and hit pedestrians? No. If he were to do that, he would not have his gift for very long. Now, was his car any less a free gift because he had to do works of responsibility in possessing his free gift? No. Did Rick have to work at a job and get a loan to buy this car? No. It was a free gift from his dad.

Here is another example:

If Billy-Bob prayed for a wife for many years and he eventually receive a wife from the Lord and consider her as a gift, then that does not mean Billy-Bob can cheat on her and or not love her and expect for her to stay with him. It is the same with God. Disloyalty to GOD means we do not really love GOD and we just love ourselves more than Him. GOD calls us to obedience to His Word. This was the problem that goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden. But men today want to say that we can break God's commands and they will not die. This was the same lie that the enemy was trying to sell Eve on. The serpent told her that she would not die if she ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Which was a violation of God's command).

Anyways, in conclusion: We know that working like at a job (trading dollars for hours) is not the same as doing "Works of responsibility in owning a free gift." Paul is not talking about responsibility in possessing Jesus Christ (Who is our gift). Paul is talking about trying to earn your salvation by a system of "Works Salvationism Alone" that did not include God's grace at all. But men today confuse the issue to justify sin under God’s grace (Which is what Jude 1:4 warns against).

Paul says a person can deny God by being reprobate unto every good work (Titus 1:16).
So we do see a different kind of work that is necessary or required.
For obviously a person cannot deny God and be saved;
And yet we know a person can deny God by being reprobate unto every good work.

In other words, we have to look at the whole counsel of God’s Word and not just believe popular Christianity that has hoodwinked people today to justify sin on some level. This is why we are living in the last days and men are lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God; This is why men have a form of godliness but they deny the power thereof. (2 Timothy 3:1-9). What power are they denying? They are denying the power mentioned in Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, and 2 Corinthians 7:1, etcetera. They walk by sight or experience and not by faith. But with God, all things are possible. But they don’t want to play ball exactly on His terms. They want the popular way that fits in with the crowd (that justifies sin on some level).

Wow you missed pauls point altogether

We work for rewards or a wage

Salvation is a gift.

You don’t work for a gift..

I truly worry for you

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Is there a difference between accidental/incidental sinning post salvation, e.g a weak willed man who can't help but drink too much and get in corresponding trouble from same, and intentional sinning, e.g. a man who is jealous of his neighbor and actively seeks to steal (or worse!) from him? It seems to me there is. Perhaps this entire thread is predicated on a misunderstanding of what each other are saying?

James says if we stumble in even the smallest area we are guilty of the law.

We can’t make excuse for sin. Thats what the legalist does. We own up to them

The penalty of sin is death.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If all sin was taken care of doesn’t that mean all sin was taken care of?

Sure we fall short, but that doesn’t mean God will vindicate is wrath upon us, all the Law and ordanices were nailed to the cross,

So… individually if one sins or whatever they have the option to confess that before God or not right? The only thing a Christian can really fail at is not having love towards God and not having love towards a their fellow man?

When those times arise they should talk to God about it, and say they are struggling with some sin that keeps them from God they can also pray and ask God to give them strength to overcome, the thing is, Gods grace is sufficient enough for them even if they don’t overcome; that is what Paul had stated anyway when he prayed for something to be taken away from him and we don’t have any idea (some say it was he bad eyes but who really knows what it was besides God).

Jesus paid for sin for all sin once on the cross; believers are given the ability through Christ to overcome sin and become dead to their former life and live to the new life in Christ right?

I personally don’t think it is good to harp on people about sins, but rather share about Gods love and the gospel message and allow God to move in and allow the person to decide for themselves how they will decide to live their life subjective with knowing that the Holy Spirit of God lives within them and the Spirit of Christ.

They refuse to confess their what they deem smaller sins, yet attack us as people who love sin.

They look act and talk like pharisees. Yet they are blind to that fact.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How do you understand Romans 4:4-5?

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

You also have to ask yourself:
Why is Paul speaking in the way that he is in Romans 4?
What is one of the major points that underlines his speech or his words here?

I believe Paul was fighting against the heresy of what I call, “Circumcision Salvationism” (Which is Law ALONE Salvationism without God’s grace).

Romans 4:2
“For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.”

Romans 4:2 is referring to:
“Works ALONE Salvationism”
(without God’s grace) because Paul is fighting against the heresy of “Circumcision Salvationism” that was spreading in the early church (mentioned at the Jerusalem council) (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1) (Acts of the Apostles 15:5) (Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Circumcision is the belief that said that you had to first be circumcised in order to be initially saved.

Paul says in Galatians 5:2 that,
“if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”

This is because there were Jews seeking to deceive Gentile Christians to be circumcised in order to be initially saved (See again Acts 15). See also Romans 3:1, Galatians 2:3, Romans 4:9-12. For if a person believed they had to be circumcised to be saved, they would be making the law or works the entrance gate and foundation of their salvation (i.e. Works ALONE Salvationism). In fact, circumcision was something that was also a part of the 613 Laws of Moses. Christians are not under the Old Law (Romans 6:14) (Acts of the Apostles 13:39), but they are under the Laws of Christ (See: 1 Corinthians 9:21) (Which are the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers). Anyways, the heresy of Circumcision Salvationism mentioned in Acts 15 is the reason why circumcision was brought up in Romans 4, and in the previous chapter (Romans 3:1). Paul is not saying one is not justified by works after one is saved by God’s grace. He is saying one is not justified by works ALONE in Romans 4:2. James is saying we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). Same word “justified” is used for both faith and works in James 2:24. For even the demons believe and tremble. This proves there are two aspects of salvation. God never intended us to be fruitless and or justify sin while under His grace. There are many warnings to believers about sin destroying our soul, and there are warnings against being fruitless. While we are changed in the regeneration (or in being born again spiritually), God does not force believers to be a certain way. We still have free will to choose to abide in Christ or not.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

They refuse to confess their what they deem smaller sins, yet attack us as people who love sin.

They look act and talk like pharisees. Yet they are blind to that fact.

Many Protestant Christians (not all) believe in the great commission in telling all nations to keep His commandments.
Yet, on the other hand, they say they will always sin this side of Heaven by a false interpretation on 1 John 1:8 (Which is contradictory to teaching others to telling all nations to keep His commands). This is double mindedness and or hypocrisy.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

They refuse to confess their what they deem smaller sins, yet attack us as people who love sin.

They look act and talk like pharisees. Yet they are blind to that fact.

How do you know? Do you have a secret microchip recording their thoughts? Do you know all believers and their minds on the planet?
Also, I think a believe a Christian would seek forgiveness with the Lord even over non-death sins because they treat all sin as grieving their Lord.

Anyways, the Bible teaches that not all sin is the same. In the Amplified Translation in Matthew 5:22, we learn that Jesus teaches us about sins that do not lead to death and a sin that does lead to death.

“But I say to you that everyone who continues to be angry with his brother
or harbors malice against him shall be guilty before the court;
and whoever speaks [contemptuously and insultingly] to his brother,
‘Raca (You empty-headed idiot)!’ shall be guilty before the
supreme court (Sanhedrin); and whoever says,
‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of the fiery hell.”
(Matthew 5:22) (AMP).​

The words in blue above are “sins not unto death” because they are the kind of sins that lead to punishment in earthly courts (or the Judgment Seat of Christ where the believer will not be condemned), but the words in red above is a “sin unto death” because it involves punishment in the afterlife in fiery hell.

In any event, a believer needs to have a right attitude heart towards God. Believer must confess and forsake sins that lead unto spiritual death so as to be forgiven or saved (as long as they are remorseful and they do not intend to sin again). But most believers today intend to sin again (even if they don’t intentionally plan on doing so again). Believers today think they are slaves to their sin (When the Bible teaches the exact opposite of that fact - Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, 2 Corinthians 7:1).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If all sin was taken care of doesn’t that mean all sin was taken care of?

Sure we fall short, but that doesn’t mean God will vindicate is wrath upon us, all the Law and ordanices were nailed to the cross,

So… individually if one sins or whatever they have the option to confess that before God or not right? The only thing a Christian can really fail at is not having love towards God and not having love towards a their fellow man?

When those times arise they should talk to God about it, and say they are struggling with some sin that keeps them from God they can also pray and ask God to give them strength to overcome, the thing is, Gods grace is sufficient enough for them even if they don’t overcome; that is what Paul had stated anyway when he prayed for something to be taken away from him and we don’t have any idea (some say it was he bad eyes but who really knows what it was besides God).

Jesus paid for sin for all sin once on the cross; believers are given the ability through Christ to overcome sin and become dead to their former life and live to the new life in Christ right?

I personally don’t think it is good to harp on people about sins, but rather share about Gods love and the gospel message and allow God to move in and allow the person to decide for themselves how they will decide to live their life subjective with knowing that the Holy Spirit of God lives within them and the Spirit of Christ.

You believe in Universal Salvation (in that even the wicked will eventually be saved). This is another wrong belief altogether. I am addressing the problems in popular Christianity or Protestantism (i.e. Baptist churches, etcetera). Protestant churches ignore 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 8:13, 1 John 1:7 in that Sanctification is a part of salvation in the sense that it also removes the penalty of sin, too. They see the Initial act of salvation in being saved by God’s grace as the sole means of forever securing their salvation for all time. They have diplomatic immunity against sin on some level. All because they have a belief alone in Jesus as their Savior or in trusting in the finished work of the cross. This is similar to the problem of the Jews. They thought they were saved by simply saying they were sons of Abraham, and yet they did not live righteously according to God.

History tends to repeat itself.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The Bible gives requirements for salvation, the only way is to be obedient to God's commandments for Christians according to each individuals capabilities Mat 25:14-30

There are Grace Commands (For our Initial and Foundational Salvation), and there are Sanctification Commands (For the Secondary Aspect of our Salvation). While there are Grace Commands in the New Testament, I believe God provided them for the Jews because they are law focused.

I think the starting point in our mind towards God should not first be the Law but it should be God’s grace, and it should be faith and trust in God first. That should be our first approach when we think about sin and salvation, (or even living for the Lord). For Titus 2:11-12 says God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world.

Also, Christians are not under the 613 Laws of Moses (even though we are obligated to keep certain laws which have been repeated in the New Covenant or within the Laws of Christ). Paul says he is under the law(s) of Christ in 1 Corinthians 9:21. Yet, we cannot be justified by the Old Law (Acts of the Apostles 13:39). For we are not under the Old Law (Romans 6:14). Believers are not to serve in newness of spirit (with New Testament Scripture) and not in the oldness of the letter (i.e. the Torah) (See: Romans 7:6).

 

[MatthewG]

You believe in Universal Salvation (in that even the wicked will eventually be saved). This is another wrong belief altogether. I am addressing the problems in popular Christianity or Protestantism (i.e. Baptist churches, etcetera). Protestant churches ignore 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 8:13, 1 John 1:7 in that Sanctification is a part of salvation in the sense that it also removes the penalty of sin, too. They see the Initial act of salvation in being saved by God’s grace as the sole means of forever securing their salvation for all time. They have diplomatic immunity against sin on some level. All because they have a belief alone in Jesus as their Savior or in trusting in the finished work of the cross. This is similar to the problem of the Jews. They thought they were saved by simply saying they were sons of Abraham, and yet they did not live righteously according to God.

History tends to repeat itself.

Oh okay. God works in and through his creation, pruning them back if need be as they make the choice to continue to seek in faith and allow God to work in their hearts and minds. It is always God who is created the work with-in us, if we make the choice to seek him out in faith and believe. Praying to God and asking him to help us in our lives to be people of faith and endure what may come, and the more people do these things, the more God renews their heart and mind. There is also the parable of the Farmer spreading seed in Mark Chapter 4, where some people enjoy hearing the word but only endure for a short period of time and when persecution arises they tend to fall away because they have no deep root with-in. There is also those who are choked out by the cares of this world itself.

These would be the only things I have to offer to you, @Bible Highlighter.

God bless.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Oh okay. God works in and through his creation, pruning them back if need be as they make the choice to continue to seek in faith and allow God to work in their hearts and minds. It is always God who is created the work with-in us, if we make the choice to seek him out in faith and believe. Praying to God and asking him to help us in our lives to be people of faith and endure what may come, and the more people do these things, the more God renews their heart and mind. There is also the parable of the Farmer spreading seed in Mark Chapter 4, where some people enjoy hearing the word but only endure for a short period of time and when persecution arises they tend to fall away because they have no deep root with-in themselves. There is also those who are choked out by the cares of this world itself.

These would be the only things I have to offer you, @Bible Highlighter.

God bless.

Do you not still believe in Universal Salvationism? If so… I don’t believe you are qualified to give an answer on the topic of this conversation (Because you are only going to keep speaking from a Universalist perspective). The argument is dealing with the popular Protestant belief that says that the penalty of sin is removed in Justification by faith alone and with them ignoring that Sanctification also removes the penalty of sin, as well. Unless you believe as they do… or you believe in Conditional Salvation and or you believe Hebrews 12:14, this discussion does not really pertain to you, my friend.

Side Note:

Sorry. I don’t argue against Univeralism because it’s pretty ridiculous and far out there. The Bible is pretty clear that such a thing is not even remotely true. You have to distort the Bible beyond imagining in order to make such a belief true.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Many Protestant Christians (not all) believe in the great commission in telling all nations to keep His commandments.
Yet, on the other hand, they say they will always sin this side of Heaven by a false interpretation on 1 John 1:8 (Which is contradictory to teaching others to telling all nations to keep His commands). This is double mindedness and or hypocrisy.

This is how human good and self righteous looks

They take people who admit that they have Not arrived yet. That they still struggle and still chose self at times over christ. And make it into some religious “they say people will always sin” in order to puff themself=vets up and make themselves look better.

All it does is keep them from truth. If they would humble themselves and see themself as God sees them, they would not puff themselves up

 

[MatthewG]

What I believe is irrelevant what is important is the truth, and that truth is God works in and through his creation and they have to make a choice to seek God out in Faith.

There are people who are choked out by the cares of this world, and there are those who hear the word and only endure for a time.

Those who have deep rooted foundation in Christ Jesus, know that God is the vinedresser, and that Jesus is the vine that we stay attached to my friend. God is the one who prunes people back, as they continue to walk towards him in light of the Lord Yeshua who is the light of the world.

Fighting against Denominations is pointless, but sharing truth with people in a way that they can understand is profitable for building up and edifying one another in Christ Yeshua.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

How do you know? Do you have a secret microchip recording their thoughts? Do you know all believers and their minds on the planet?
Also, I think a believe a Christian would seek forgiveness with the Lord even over non-death sins because they treat all sin as grieving their Lord.

No but I have witnessed enough of you self righteous works based believers and how you attack others while refusing to acknowledge your own sin to know a pattern when I see one. It is what they did in Jesus day, and why they crucified him. They attack the gentiles and sinners. While refusing to acknowledge they were sinners.

Anyways, the Bible teaches that not all sin is the same. In the Amplified Translation in Matthew 5:22, we learn that Jesus teaches us about sins that do not lead to death and a sin that does lead to death.

“But I say to you that everyone who continues to be angry with his brother
or harbors malice against him shall be guilty before the court;
and whoever speaks [contemptuously and insultingly] to his brother,
‘Raca (You empty-headed idiot)!’ shall be guilty before the
supreme court (Sanhedrin); and whoever says,
‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of the fiery hell.”
(Matthew 5:22) (AMP).​

The words in blue above are “sins not unto death” because they are the kind of sins that lead to punishment in earthly courts (or the Judgment Seat of Christ where the believer will not be condemned), but the words in red above is a “sin unto death” because it involves punishment in the afterlife in fiery hell.

In any event, a believer needs to have a right attitude heart towards God. Believer must confess and forsake sins that lead unto spiritual death so as to be forgiven or saved (as long as they are remorseful and they do not intend to sin again). But most believers today intend to sin again (even if they don’t intentionally plan on doing so again). Believers today think they are slaves to their sin (When the Bible teaches the exact opposite of that fact - Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, 2 Corinthians 7:1).

[/quote]
Two people can commit the same sin. One may led to death one may not. One my get drunk and get killed trying t drive hime. One may not.. It Does not make one sin Deeper or worse than the other.

James said if we STUMBLE in the least. We are guilty of all

This just proves my point of you excusing your sin.

The penalty of sin is death (spiritua)

Sin is sin is sin, the actual greek word means to miss the marK. Well guess what Bd. Your little excused sin, Is missing the mark.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Wow you missed pauls point altogether

We work for rewards or a wage

Salvation is a gift.

You don’t work for a gift..

I truly worry for you

Paul’s point is in dealing with Initial Salvation by God’s grace without works in the 1st aspect of salvation because of Circumcision Salvationism. Paul was not referring to what happens after one is saved by God’s grace. The Jews were trying to deceive Gentile Christians to be circumcised in order to be initially saved (See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul even said himself that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2). It’s why Paul said in Romans 3:1 what profit is there in circumcision? This no doubt that he was pointing to the problem in Acts 15.

First, Gentiles believers are not under the 613 Laws as a whole or package deal (even if certain laws have been repeated in the Laws of Christ or the Laws given to us by Jesus and His followers in the New Testament). Circumcision was first given to Abraham and then it continued to be given to Moses in the Torah. Yet, we are not under the Old Law as Christians.

Second, if a person thought they had to be circumcised to be initially saved, they would be making the Law or a work the entrance gate and foundation of their salvation. This is why Paul brings up circumcision in Romans 4:9-12.

Like all gifts in life, they come with responsibilities in maintaining them. This is different than Works ALONE Salvationism without God’s grace (Which is what the heresy of Circumcision Salvation was all about). Paul is not against works for salvation later (After one was saved by God’s grace). Paul says in Titus 1:16 that you can deny God by being reprobate unto every good work. Paul also says in 1 Timothy 6:12 that you have to fight the good fight of faith and lay hold on eternal life. Faith is everything in your Bible (Including God’s instructions in obeying Him). For if Noah did not get on the Ark, he would have perished along with everyone else. A belief alone would not have saved Noah. In fact, even the demons believe and tremble. So a belief alone type faith (with no change) is like that of demons.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

James says if we stumble in even the smallest area we are guilty of the law.

We can’t make excuse for sin. Thats what the legalist does. We own up to them

The penalty of sin is death.

James was referring to breaking of the Royal Law of love. James is not referring to non-death sins like 1 John 5:16, and in Matthew 5:22 (See: Matthew 5:22 in the AMP Translation).

Also, no believer makes excuses for sin. That is what the Protestant does. They say they will always sin this side of Heaven based on a faulty interpretation on 1 John 1:8.

 

[MatthewG]

No but I have witnessed enough of you self righteous works based believers and how you attack others while refusing to acknowledge your own sin to know a pattern when I see one. It is what they did in Jesus day, and why they crucified him. They attack the gentiles and sinners. While refusing to acknowledge they were sinners.

Two people can commit the same sin. One may led to death one may not. One my get drunk and get killed trying t drive hime. One may not.. It Does not make one sin Deeper or worse than the other.

James said if we STUMBLE in the least. We are guilty of all

This just proves my point of you excusing your sin.

The penalty of sin is death (spiritua)

Sin is sin is sin, the actual greek word means to miss the marK. Well guess what Bd. Your little excused sin, Is missing the mark.

Yes that is the truth, when we are born again, the only sin we really commit is failing to love God and failing to love others, God works in our heart and mind and we feed off the word which is the food God gave us to intake. When we fall short saying being hateful and mean and despising others that is an internal heart problem and we react in the flesh, and that quenches the spirit and it is where we need to Go to our Father and tell him what is going with us and ask him to help us.

The good thing about it is when we realize immediately what is happening and we go directly to God in prayer.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The Bible gives requirements for salvation, the only way is to be obedient to God's commandments for Christians according to each individuals capabilities Mat 25:14-30

And faith in the blood is simply what God gives us to accomplish that one way to be saved?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

That is what the Protestant does. They say they will always sin this side of Heaven based on a faulty interpretation on 1 John 1:8.

I go by 2 Peter 1:8 which talks about the believer's progression out of sin and into the ever increasing qualities of the Spirit listed. Every believer is on an exodus from Egypt to the Promised Land of obedience and blessing.

But this same Peter does talk about 'being done with sin' (1 Peter 4:1). This exodus from Egypt for the people of God, with it's trials through the desert places of life between where we came from and where we are going, are instrumental in cleansing us of the rebellion of sin and it's bondage we had been so accustomed to in Egypt. The time does come when, for any one particular propensity to sin, you are done with it. For me fits of rage was a sin that the hard desert places killed off in me. That man died in the desert. Just the way God intended.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Is there a difference between accidental/incidental sinning post salvation, e.g a weak willed man who can't help but drink too much and get in corresponding trouble from same, and intentional sinning, e.g. a man who is jealous of his neighbor and actively seeks to steal (or worse!) from him? It seems to me there is. Perhaps this entire thread is predicated on a misunderstanding of what each other are saying?

Yes. There is a BIG difference. And it is this difference that clears up a lot of misunderstanding. It's one thing to struggle with sin in a kind of 'seventy times seven' relationship with God (Matthew 18:21-22), but quite another to not resist it because you simply don't care about Christ and the gospel (Hebrews 10:26). The 'believer' who lacks this struggle with sin and instead embraces it openly and without conscience is in unbelief. He's not really a believer! (Whether he really ever was one or not...let's save that for another thread, lol.)

And so you are right, lots of misunderstanding comes from not considering the motivation of sin, and instead qualifying all obedience and sinning as a matter of being saved vs. not being saved. That would be quite a burden to bear as a believer. It's simply not that cut and dry. There is sinning that leads to death (rejection and abandonment of Christ in unbelief), and there is sin that does not (the believer's struggle with sin - Hebrews 12:1, Hebrews 12:4).

 

[LearningToLetGo]

I believe Paul was fighting against the heresy of what I call, “Circumcision Salvationism”

Thank you for pointing this out.