22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[marks]

Why is it so hard to get a straight answer from you?

Why do you make so many denigrating and condescending remarks? Why do you routinely have to include these negative personal comments?

There IS a reason. Do you know what that reason is?

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Honestly, it seems kind of convenient that you would not relate two passages together that both speak of the treading of the winepress of God's wrath.

Do you always assume a same phrase automatically means the verses are talking about the same thing or person or event?
Revelation talks twice about a white horse. Do you believe both places a rider on a white horse is spoken of speak of Jesus? If you don’t, and think one of them is antichrist, is that convenient?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So then, you believe in two resurrections, only you shorten the time between them?

Or in the same moment, all will be resurrected? I guess I'm seeing both in your answer. Could you clarify that for me?

I look at the second coming of Christ as being one event during which several things occur. So, in that sense I see one resurrection event, which is the "hour" Jesus said is coming during which all of the dead will be resurrected. But, yes, I do believe there will be a very short amount of time between the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the resurrection of the unsaved. Obviously, the unsaved dead can't all be resurrected until those who are alive at the time are killed first (which is what is described in Revelation 20:9-15).

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Also, you should be aware that Jesus taught the saved and the lost will all be harvested at the same time, which contradicts your interpretation of Revelation 14:14-20.

Matthew 13:36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” 37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. 40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

I would place that with the second reaping.
The first reaping is not done by angels but by one “looking like the Son of Man.”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why do you make so many denigrating and condescending remarks? Why do you routinely have to include these negative personal comments?

You're refusing to just answer my questions and seem to want to give riddles and play games instead. I've been very patient with you, but it's getting old. Also, how many "denigrating and condescending remarks" have I made to you personally? Yes, I have done that with Davy since that seems to be the style of communication that he understands, but I haven't done that with you.

There IS a reason. Do you know what that reason is?

Obviously not. Is it too much for me to ask you what that reason is?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I would place that with the second reaping.
The first reaping is not done by angels but by one “looking like the Son of Man.”

But, Jesus indicated that Matthew 13:36-43 will happen "at the end of the age". Don't you believe that Jesus will return at the end of the age (Matt 24:3)?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you always assume a same phrase automatically means the verses are talking about the same thing or person or event?

No, but in this case I see no reason why they are not talking about the same event. I asked this before, but I don't think you answered it. And maybe you didn't even see it, which is fine. But, have you ever considered that the book of Revelation contains several parallel passages in it rather than being all or mostly chronological from beginning to end?

Revelation talks twice about a white horse. Do you believe both places a rider on a white horse is spoken of speak of Jesus? If you don’t, and think one of them is antichrist, is that convenient?

That's not really a similar comparison. We're talking about the winepress of God's wrath here. That implies His final wrath. Why would His final wrath come down more than once?

 

[marks]

Also, how many "denigrating and condescending remarks" have I made to you personally?

You should go back over your posts and look at the way you speak to others, myself included. I'm being patient. But I'm beginning to bring these to your attention.

Respectfulness goes a long way.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

When you say "destroyed" you mean cast into the lake of fire, right? If Premill was true, then obviously any believers who died during the thousand years would need to be resurrected after the thousand years, so I'm not sure why any Premill would believe otherwise.

I don’t believe otherwise…I would also add though, that some who died before the thousand years are also raised then.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You should go back over your posts and look at the way you speak to others, myself included. I'm being patient. But I'm beginning to bring these to your attention.

Respectfulness goes a long way.

I believe I have been respecting you. I don't believe Davy deserves any respect, though.

Also, how could you not be understanding that I may get a bit frustrated at you often not giving straightforward answers? I don't see how just posting scripture passages without any commentary is helpful. We need to know how exactly you think that scripture passage addresses the point or question that you're responding to.

 

[marks]

The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified.

Does this mean that at that time of that day? Does it refer to that the events were set in motion? Is it when He is sentenced? When He submits to being crucified? When He died? When He rose? When He ascended as was glorified? All of these?

The hour has come . . .

Much love!

 

[marks]

Also, how could you not be understanding that I may get a bit frustrated at you often not giving straightforward answers?

You choose your assumptions, including to assume I'm playing games with you.

Maybe I think a passage is so plainly stated I need only draw your attention to it.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I don't believe Davy deserves any respect, though.

Love your enemies.
~ Jesus

 

[WPM]

okay. I have to address them this way then - I find your interpretation of scripture to be wrong in many places and so I find your arguments to be wrong. You have some assumptions built in to your framework that I just don’t have, because I’m not out to defend my current understanding but rather to expand on it. And you’re getting slightly cranked up, so I’m not sure how much further we will be able to go

Sorry if it come across that way. That is not how I felt. Apologies if it did.

Notwithstanding, it is hard engaging when someone just says 'I disagree with your interpretation' without actually addressing the text or your arguments. The work one puts in then becomes a waste of time. This is a common Premil trait. They cannot engage with the multiple Scripture texts that expose their position.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don’t believe otherwise

I didn't say you did. I was saying that I don't know how other Premils could believe otherwise.

I would also add though, that some who died before the thousand years are also raised then.

Where is the scripture, besides your understanding of Revelation 20, that you can reference that supports this claim?

How does your view line up with what Jesus taught here:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

You have the dead being raised on at least 3 different occasions, right? How does that fit with what Jesus taught in John 5:28-29?


In terms of dead believers in particular, how does your view line up with what Paul taught here:

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

Paul indicated that believers will be resurrected when Jesus comes and does not mention them being resurrected at any other time. If believers will be resurrected at some other time(s) besides just when Jesus comes again, then why didn't Paul mention that within a passage where he gives the order of bodily resurrections (unto bodily immortality), with Christ's being the first?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Because interpreting it the way you do contradicts other scripture. Why would I want to interpret that passage in such a way that contradicts my interpretation of many other passages? I don't assume any given verse or passage is literal or symbolic before studying it. I look at the context and I keep the rest of scripture in mind when interpreting it.

So much for a plain reading of that text. What you're saying would mean you're interpreting the passage as if it said this:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a long time period is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live at the beginning of that long time period, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned at the end of that long time period.

That comes across as complete nonsense. That is clearly not what He was saying. Other scripture indicates that all people will be judged at the same time, such as Acts 17:31, Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46. So, it only follows that all of the dead would be resurrected at around the same time in order to be judged at the same time.

Yes, I believe the resurrection of the dead in Christ will happen immediately upon His arrival "in the air" at which point we will be gathered to Him and then He will destroy all of the wicked on the earth and the unsaved dead will be resurrected as well at that time. And then the judgment occurs.

I am not certain. Why do you ask?

this would make no sense and puts alot of the word in question

it also would prevent alot of OT prophecies concerning the rule of King messiah in jerusalem as unfulfillable

 

[marks]

Daniel 12:11-13 KJV
11) And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12) Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13) But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

This is Daniel's resurrection day.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Love your enemies.

Love and respect are not the same thing. I can love someone without respecting them. Anyway, I'm more than willing to have a respectful discussion with you. I just wish you could be more direct with your comments, so I don't have to guess at what you're saying.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

No, but in this case I see no reason why they are not talking about the same event. I asked this before, but I don't think you answered it. And maybe you didn't even see it, which is fine. But, have you ever considered that the book of Revelation contains several parallel passages in it rather than being all or mostly chronological from beginning to end?

Okay, you see no reason they are not talking about the same event and I see a reason that they can’t be talking about the same event.

 

[WPM]

Love your enemies.
~ Jesus

There is a big difference between love and respect. Trust and respect are earned, not automatic and universal. God never tells us to trust and respect everyone. We give honor to where it is due!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

this would make no sense and puts alot of the word in question

it also would prevent alot of OT prophecies concerning the rule of King messiah in jerusalem as unfulfillable

Please back up your opinions with scripture. Thanks.