22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

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Eternally Grateful

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17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
1 Thess 4:17

30 It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.
35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left
Luke 17:35

The taking of people, ie rapture happens when Jesus is revealed.
This does not fit to pre-AntiChrist rapture ideas.

Most of the language I hear about the anti-Christ is always a group out there, the Pope, a ruler people do not like etc.
The idea yes enemies of Christ are dangerous, so be careful, but that is where I leave it.

God bless you
My thoughts. (And I am learning all the time)

the antichrist is revealed as Jesus said in matt 24. when he enters the holy places and commits the abomination of desolation as spoken of by daniel.

after this there is great tribulation. such as never been seen before or after.

so the question is. when is the rapture. before or after the tribulation of those days.

Jesus said it will be like a thief. no one will know nor will they even be looking

When jesus returns to earth to end the tribulation. Everyone will know. and everyone will be crying out about the day of the lords wrath. because they all know

I can make a case for pre and mid trib. I can not make a case for post trib or amil.. Not when I study the word.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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I can make a case for pre and mid trib. I can not make a case for post trib or amil.. Not when I study the word.

I can’t either. Mostly because of this: 5 This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.)
 

WPM

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Is Jesus ruling with a rod of iron?

if you believe the above are true today. You must not read the news.. Satan is still decieving the nations. And Jesus is not ruling with the rod. Nations are still against nation, kingdon is still against kingdom. the end is not yet
Revelation is a prophetic letter. While it uses symbols. these symbols represent literal events.


Hitler. Stalin. 2 out of many nations who have been decieved by satan himself.

and you want me to think He is bound?

Gentiles were saved enmass in the OT. All people saved BEFORE Abraham birthed Isaac who birthed Jacob and thus became the nation of Israsel were saved.
Even after The nation was born. Many gentiles found God..
As for Isreal. They were decieved by satan themselves and followed after satanic Gods, its why Assyria destroyed the northern kingdom. and babylon and the nations who followed up until today have ruled over them and enslaved them.


I have no idea what your trying to say here. WHo said the gentiles would be enlightened in our conversation?


Once again, what are you talking about?

This has nothing to do with what I said. Can you please stick to what I said and what I asked. I did not mention ANYTHING about the gospel.. so why are you talking about the gospel?


again, I have no idea what you are trying to discuss.

I asked if Satan was bound now.

I asked if Jesus was ruling with a rod of Iron,

can you please answer the questions.

The teaching of Revelation 20 in regard to the binding of Satan is inextricably linked to the Gospel expansion. You cannot divorce the two. This corresponds with countless New Testament Scriptures. Satan has been bound since the First Advent. The Premil theory enjoys zero corroboration on all its main tenets. That is because their understanding and placement of Revelation 20 is faulty. They fail to interpret Scripture with Scripture. This is what divides Amil from Premil. Yes, Jesus is sovereignly reigning today with a rod of iron over all His enemies. He will destroy His enemies when He comes. None will survive.

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.
 

stunnedbygrace

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The teaching of Revelation 20 in regard to the binding of Satan is inextricably linked to the Gospel expansion. You cannot divorce the two. This corresponds with countless New Testament Scriptures. Satan has been bound since the First Advent. The Premil theory enjoys zero corroboration on all its main tenets. That is because their understanding and placement of Revelation 20 is faulty. They fail to interpret Scripture with Scripture. This is what divides Amil from Premil. Yes, Jesus is sovereignly reigning today with a rod of iron over all His enemies. He will destroy His enemies when He comes. None will survive.

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

I can at least somewhat agree with your last two sentences. :) He is currently being restrained from everything he wants to do. Although, given the worldwide hatred and anger I see growing, I’ve wondered a few times if the Restrainer might already have been taken out of the way…
 

Randy Kluth

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We don't need to be swept up. The kingdom is an extant spiritual reality. And we're in it.

Unless, of course, you don't want to be.

;) yea, right--if I don't agree with your position, I want to go to Hell! lol!

Seriously, the question then is about whether the Kingdom of Christ is an already-existent spiritual reality? Well yes, that's true.

I just believe that the Scriptures distinguish between a present manifestation of the Kingdom and the eschatological manifestation of the Kingdom. What we are experiencing now is not the eschatological Kingdom, but only things that the Kingdom causes us to experience while it is still only "near," and in heaven.

And yes, the Kingdom of God can be "in heaven" and still impact us presently on the earth. That is how I believe the Scriptures describe it--as "near," and not yet "here."
 

stunnedbygrace

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I’m probably not going to comment any more in this thread unless someone brings up something not yet brought up. (Although I will read the thread again for any helpful thing I may have missed!) But I wanted to say I really appreciate the conversation I’ve had with you guys. I learned a lot, so thank you!
 

WPM

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I can at least somewhat agree with your last two sentences. :) He is currently being restrained from everything he wants to do. Although, given the worldwide hatred and anger I see growing, I’ve wondered a few times if the Restrainer might already have been taken out of the way…

I actually agree with this. I also preach it.

Christ predicted the historic and eternal downfall of Satan in John 12:31-33, shortly before the cross: “Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”

Christ’s death, burial and resurrection were the decisive blows against Satan. His defeat has already been wrought. This passage plainly shows the powerful result of Calvary and the deep impact it had upon Satan. It shows us that Satan is now under Christ’s feet and is now subject to His Sovereign will. Satan and his minions are barred from heaven. They have been banished after they were defeated 2,000 years ago.

Satan is the actual source of power for the beast. The beast therefore does not function outside of Satan and his authority. The beast is as reliant upon the devil for his power as a large flat-screen television is reliant upon electricity. While these two evil entities are distinction there is a definite, notable and intimate inter-dependence upon each other. This agrees with 2 Thessalonians 2, where the mystery of iniquity is described as “him, whose coming is after [Gr. kata or through or according to] ‘the working’ [Gr. energeia] of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.” Thayer says the Greek word energeia means working, energy or efficiency. In the New Testament it is only used “of superhuman power, whether of God or of the evil.”

The fate of Satan, the beast (spirit of antichrist / mystery of iniquity) and the fallen angels (demons) are therefore all knit together in Scripture. When Satan was banished from the Garden then all evil was. They also all came under the same spiritual subjugation at the exact same time through Christ’s earthly ministry.

Christ didn't just defeat Satan 2,000 years ago, he defeated the demonic kingdom. Every demonic spirit was subjugated through the cross-work and placed in a place of spiritual restraint after the life, death and resurrection of Christ. The freedom and restriction that pertains to Satan permeates down through his subjects as he is the representative head. When the kingdom of darkness is described, it is shown to be currently spiritually restrained and curtailed in regard to their power and influence. The kingdom of God on the other hand is depicted as a triumphant Church that brings life and hope to an ignorant world.

When Satan was bound through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ then the kingdom of darkness was bound (including the beast and every demon). 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6, Revelation 9 and Revelation 20 all prove the whole demonic realm is currently restrained from stopping the free-flow of the Gospel. The bruising of the head of the beast (Revelation 13:3, 13:12 and 13:14) correlates with the bruising of the head of Satan 2,000 years ago through the earthly ministry of Christ (Genesis 3:15). They correspond with the spiritual binding imprisoning of Satan during the millennial period. These are figurative metaphors describing the impairment of the kingdom of darkness 2000 years ago.

Satan gets a little season to wreak havoc on the Church. When Satan is released for a little season then so is the beast, and Satan's minions. We see the devils in Revelation 9:2-3, the beast in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, and Satan in Revelation 9:10-11 and Revelation 20:3 all being released before the second coming for a little season.
 

Randy Kluth

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You said "You don't pray for something that's already here!".
Maybe you don't, but I do.
You sure don't speak for me!

Then we're at an impasse on this? I don't understand praying for something one already has!

I'm already delivered.

Colossians 1:13
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness...

Sorry about you.

Save your crocodile tears! ;)

The point is, brother, I've differentiated between legal deliverance and final deliverance, and you're bypassing that. We were legally delivered at the cross.

But in our own personal history, we still need to *apply* that legal deliverance. And our final deliverance is not effected until the resurrection to immortality.

We do experience a measure of deliverance in the present age. But final deliverance remains future and eschatological.
 

WPM

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;) yea, right--if I don't agree with your position, I want to go to Hell! lol!

Seriously, the question then is about whether the Kingdom of Christ is an already-existent spiritual reality? Well yes, that's true.

I just believe that the Scriptures distinguish between a present manifestation of the Kingdom and the eschatological manifestation of the Kingdom. What we are experiencing now is not the eschatological Kingdom, but only things that the Kingdom causes us to experience while it is still only "near," and in heaven.

And yes, the Kingdom of God can be "in heaven" and still impact us presently on the earth. That is how I believe the Scriptures describe it--as "near," and not yet "here."

There is no such mention of "the eschatological Kingdom" in Scripture. You have created that phrase. It is wise to keep to biblical terms. The kingdom is here now spiritually and will arrive in all its final and majestic eternal perfect glory when Jesus comes.
 

Randy Kluth

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There is no such mention of "the eschatological Kingdom." You have created that phrase. It is wise to keep to biblical terms. The kingdom is here now spiritually and will arrive in all its final and majestic eternal perfect glory when Jesus comes.

Don't be ridiculous. Whenever there is a conflict over what the Scriptures mean, one has to use currently-used terms and synonyms to describe what is being disputed. The idea that "eschatological Kingdom" is not there is laughable.
 

WPM

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I’m probably not going to comment any more in this thread unless someone brings up something not yet brought up. (Although I will read the thread again for any helpful thing I may have missed!) But I wanted to say I really appreciate the conversation I’ve had with you guys. I learned a lot, so thank you!

I think you need to stay around. It has been a joy engaging with you.
 
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WPM

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Don't be ridiculous. Whenever there is a conflict over what the Scriptures mean, one has to use currently-used terms and synonyms to describe what is being disputed. The idea that "eschatological Kingdom" is not there is laughable.

Show me the term in Scripture. What do you think it refers to?
 

marks

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That's not how the book of Revelation works. It's not just all a sequence of events. It has several parallel sections in it rather than it being all, or mostly all, in chronological order from beginning to end.
I find the Revelation lays out it's own chronology, letting us know what comes before/after what, telling us parts that are paranthetical, and giving common points of reference between various portions of the narrative.

Yes, I realize, it's not a single sequence of events start to finish. But as with everything else concerning the Bible, I find that all the details are contained there in the text, in the terms used, only, you have to accept what they actually say.

The Bible is its own authority.

Much love!
 

WPM

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Oh that's easy, brother. We are translated into *membership* of the Kingdom--we are not there yet!



As I said, Jesus was and is the King of the Kingdom. When he arrived in Israel during his earthly ministry, it could be said that the Kingdom spiritually dwelt within Israel and especially with Jesus' followers. It did not mean the Kingdom had actually come!

It was just a temporal form of the Kingdom that had been in the midst of Israel, just as the temple had temporarily been in the midst of Israel. The actual eschatological Kingdom remains future. Jesus said his disciples should pray, "Thy Kingdom Come." You don't pray for something that's already here!



It is not nonsense, nor it is necessarily Dispensationalism. It is precisely what Jesus said. And I'm not a Dispensationalist. If you think the Kingdom is already here, I wonder what you're hoping for in the future?

Matthew 6:10 says, “Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven”

You seem to be trying to employ the Lord’s prayer in Matthew 6:9-13 as support for their belief that the kingdom is to be a future physical temporal kingdom that will be set up on this sin-cursed earth for 1000 years. However, you do err in your basic understanding of the character of the kingdom AND do wrongly interpret this familiar prayer, misapplying the meaning of its wording.

Firstly, we must realise that every other request in this prayer is immediate and current in that it relates to the ‘here and now’. It is also personal and particular in that it has an intimate effect upon the actual individual making the petition. It is therefore a cohesive prayer that is totally and fully achievable in the life of the disciple making it. This prayer in full is therefore evidently answerable and realisable to the child of God in this life.

· “Give us this day our daily bread” (v11).

· “Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors” (v12).
· “Lead us not into temptation” (v13).
· “Deliver us from evil” (v13).

There is no contextual warrant then to divorce “Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven” from the undoubted harmony and overall make-up of the rest of the prayer. Unfortunately, some premillennialists manipulate the passage to make it sound as if it reads ‘Thy kingdom come…in earth, as it is in heaven’ thus conveniently omitting or glossing over the inspired and vital words “Thy will be done” as if they are not in it. The passages reads:

· “Thy kingdom come” (v10a).
· “Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven” (v10b).

It is thus a harmonious interrelated petition which is fully realized in the life of the Church generally and the believer individually in which they see the will of God manifested and performed on this earth “as it is in heaven.” It is also a request to see the Kingdom of God (which is everywhere else described as a spiritual eternal kingdom) manifested in and through the believers’ life experientially. It is NOT a detached distant request to see a future temporal earthly millennial kingdom manifested after Christ’s Second Coming.

This is simply an individual’s petition. The kingdom God can be manifested through us as individuals because the kingdom of God is within. I see this as a request for the power of God to be displayed through us – nothing more, nothing less.

The simple import of this much-misinterpreted aspect of this prayer is that God would make His Kingdom manifest in all its power and glory in the life of the supplicant and that God’s Sovereign will would be manifested on this earth as in heaven through His praying people. In fact, the parallel reading in Luke 11:2 declares, “Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.”

The Greek tense in both texts reinforces the fact that this relates to the ongoing manifestation of the kingdom on this earth. It is written in the aorist active imperative – in the present tense. So it cannot just be limited to a future happening but rather a continuous progression.

This thinking simply emanates out of a flawed notion of the kingdom; a view nowhere expounded by Christ in Scripture. In fact, the part of this petition that some Bible students selectively use in support of the idea of a literal thousand-year reign on earth after the second coming of Christ, simply says, “Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.” Thus, fitting in beautifully with the immediate nature of the overall prayer petition and its personal significance to the one making the petition.

Entering in to that spiritual kingdom in this life brings an immediate realisation in the ‘here and now’ and on this earth of true “righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost” (Romans 14:17) and is decisively personal to the recipient. Many Premillennialists, every time they see the term kingdom, automatically think ‘future, temporal and visible’ whereas the kingdom exists NOW and is current, eternal and spiritual. During His earthly ministry, Christ addressed the fallacy of a literal earthly kingdom, saying, “The kingdom of God cometh not with observation” (Luke 17:20).

The subject of Christ’s (example) prayer and the specific reference to “kingdom” in that prayer relates to the same spiritual kingdom about which He continually referred to in His earthly ministry.

That kingdom was not physical as many Jews envisaged but spiritual. It could only be entered in spiritually through the Christian new birth.

When we pray “Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven” we are praying that “righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost” would be manifested in us and around us; that God would be given His place and that unrighteousness would be banished. When we pray “Thy kingdom come” we are praying for heaven to come down in supernatural power in our midst – just like at Pentecost. This is a petition for the glory of God to be seen in our world.
 

Eternally Grateful

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The teaching of Revelation 20 in regard to the binding of Satan is inextricably linked to the Gospel expansion.

Please show in the passage where this is true

You cannot divorce the two.
Unless the gospel message is mentioned in context in rev 20. I most certainly can.

This corresponds with countless New Testament Scriptures. Satan has been bound since the First Advent.

Again, do you look at the news. You telling me WW1 and WW2 were not satan decieving the nations to cause war?

The Premil theory enjoys zero corroboration on all its main tenets.
Ah. so instead of discussing, your just going to make accusations based on your opinion.. where is the proof?

That is because their understanding and placement of Revelation 20 is faulty.

Well show is in rev 20 the context you are trying to use?

They fail to interpret Scripture with Scripture.

Ahh. so we get down to the nitty gritty. It does not matter what is said in context. we search the bible to find things to help us intperet a passage to fit our belief..

I see

This is what divides Amil from Premil. Yes, Jesus is sovereignly reigning today with a rod of iron over all His enemies. He will destroy His enemies when He comes. None will survive.
Jesus is not ruling with a rod of Iron. if he did. The mass evil we see would not be occuring today. Your right, Evil will be destroyed. and in its place. Jesus will rule on his throne. and even will not be tolerated. because he will rule with a rod of iron.

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

I can not agree with your perception of rev 20, Satan, in my view, is not bound my friend.. Non of those passage prove it. Rev 20 says he will not be able to decieve the nations. It does not say he will not be able to prevent the gospel from being spread.. Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail. rev 20 is not about that. it is about the events which occure AFTER the return of Christ.

20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

Nothing about the gospel

Nothing about him being able to roan freely and decieve nations to cause warfare and other matters of evil

This is ALSO after he takes control of the man of sin. and causes him to do things during the great tribulation during Gods wrath.

If you want to try to insert what you say to the word. show it in the passage,

and please. stop withe the pre-mil amil stuff. a few of your friends who believe as you do have called out this type of behavior saying premils always do this to them

You want to discuss scripture. lets discuss it.. The other nonsense is just that./ nonsense.
 
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