Unlike Amillennialism, Premillennialism is based on assumptions and speculation rather than on any clear, straightforward scriptures

[Spiritual Israelite]

Thick skin here, not easily offended.

You often are telling people to be nice, so I wasn't sure if that was the case.

 

[Wish-it]

Clearly, history. It's beyond clear that the first kingdom is the one King Nebuchadnezzar was reigning over at the time which was ancient Babylon and then other kingdoms followed the Babylonian empire in succession.

So now read it like its now, starting with Iraq, defeated, Iran, currently losing strength, Javan (Turkey- home of Magog, Tubal and Meshech), currently rising in strength. The leader , maybe Gog, is calling for the destruction of Israel. He is also calling for a coalition to destroy Israel. That will come soon. Dan 8.8,22.
Can u see it?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So now read it like its now, starting with Iraq, defeated, Iran, currently losing strength, Javan (Turkey- home of Magog, Tubal and Meshech), currently rising in strength. The leader , maybe Gog, is calling for the destruction of Israel. He is also calling for a coalition to destroy Israel. That will come soon. Dan 8.8,22.
Can u see it?

No. You seem to be under the impression that you can convince me to agree with you about these things. No, that will never happen. I have studied end times doctrine for a long time and I reject futurism 100%. And preterism. Both systems are too extreme. In this case, Daniel is clearly about those ancient world empires that started with Babylon, so you can't convince me otherwise.

 

[Wish-it]

You often are telling people to be nice, so I wasn't sure if that was the case.

Its needed dont you think on occasion. We all believe in him, we need to be considerate. Its not an emotional subject, we are trying to ascertain understanding. So we should try and keep civil.

 

[Zao is life]

You make some very good points here. Especially when you made this point and similar points---"Why don't you mention scriptures talking about Satan being bound so that he is unable to go about as "the prince of the power of the air who works in the sons of disobedience", deceiving the nations, etc etc"?

I haven't read this entire thread yet but have read from page 1 up to this point. So then, did @Spiritual Israelite eventually ever get around to talking about any of those things?

I don't remember if he answered or not. It was too long ago for me.

 

[Zao is life]

• With the introduction of His spiritual kingdom came a direct challenge to the power and influence of Satan on planet earth.

"Satan's power and influence on planet earth" or "Satan's kingdom" (another way of putting what you just called it) never needed to be challenged by God, you blasphemer. The Kingdom has always been God's and God's Kingdom has been under challenge by Satan since the days of the Garden of Eden.

You do not even know what you are talking about when you talk about the spiritual Kingdom of Christ. God is a spirit, and they who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth. (John 4:24).

Which is not what you do when you make statements like the above.

The One who exists from eternity unto eternity is the source of all existence. ​

The life [zoe] that is in Him is eternal life [aionios zoe]. He alone has life [zoe] in Himself (John 1:4; John 5:26).​

The One who alone has life [zoe] in Himself is spiritually alive [zao] and is the source of all life [zoe].​

The One who is spiritually alive [zao] is the God of all the living | of those who are alive [zao].​

1. ZOE (LIFE)

(A) John 1:4; John 5:26:

God is the source of all life [zoe] and only God has/possesses life in Himself.​

(B) God exists (from eternity to eternity): The life which is in God is eternal life [aionios zoe].​

(C) John 1:4; John 5:26; John 3:16; John 14:6; 1 John 5:11-12; Colossians 3:4:​

​

The eternal life God has given to created human beings who are born of His Spirit is in His Son (1 John 5:11-12), who alone has/possesses eternal life in Himself John 5:26.​

"When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." (Colossians 3:4).

Jesus told those who believed in Him:​

"I am in my Father, and ye (will be) in me, and I in you." (John 14:19b-20b)​

In Colossians 1:27 Paul talks about "the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints,​

which is Christ IN you, the hope of glory."​

Jesus said, "The kingdom of God does not come with external evidence (that can be observed). Nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or 'It's over there!' For take heed, be discerning, and perceive this: The kingdom of God is within you." (Luke 17:21).

Eternal life:
(Greek): aionios zoe. The Greek texts of the New Testament never call eternal life "aionios zao".

Only God has life [zoe] in Himself, therefore only God can of Himself be alive [zao] forever.

Eternal life [zoe] is given in Christ to created and fallen human beings who have been born of the Spirit of God.

2. ZAO (TO BE ALIVE | TO BE LIVING | TO LIVE)

Only God has life [zoe] in Himself, therefore only God can of Himself be alive [zao] forever. As for created human beings,

"In Him (God) we live | are alive [zao], and move, and have our being; For we are also his offspring." (Acts 17:28).

"There is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we IN HIM; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we BY him." (1 Corinthians 8:6).

In the case of human beings, to live / to be alive [zao] forever is to be immortal (alive forever in a body that does not die), but the source of all life [zoe] is God, who alone has life [zoe] in Himself.

Only Jesus, who has life IN HIMSELF, possesses immortality OF HIMSELF:

"He (Christ) alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen." (1 Timothy 6:15-16).

- "I am the First and the Last, and the Living [zao] One, and I became dead [nekros], and behold, I am alive [zao] to the ages of the ages, Amen. And I have the keys of hades and of death." (Revelation 1:17-18).

In Christ we have eternal life. Only in Christ. Eternal life exists in the Messiah alone:

"When the Messiah (the Christ), who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." (Colossians 3:4).

THAT is the spiritual Kingdom of Christ in us.

It has NOTHING to do with the binding of Satan's influence in this world or his ability to deceive the nations - which Revelation 20:1-3 tells you CLEARLY AND UNAMBIGUOUSLY, is yet to come.

 

[WPM]

"Satan's kingdom" never needed to be challenged by God, you blasphemer. The Kingdom has always been God's and God's Kingdom has been under challenge by Satan since the days of the Garden of Eden.

You do not even know what you are talking about when you talk about the spiritual Kingdom of Christ.

Learn what a blasphemer is before you start throwing out ridiculous misinformed charges. Just because you have no answer to Amillennialism, doesn't mean you have a greenlight to hurl this childish nonsense.

Why would i even read anything further after your 1st 2 paragraphs of nonsense? It is not going to happen!

 

[Zao is life]

Learn what a blasphemer is before you start throwing out ridiculous misinformed charges. Just because you have no answer to Amillennialism, doesn't mean you have a greenlight to hurl this childish nonsense.

Why would i even read anything further after your 1st 2 paragraphs of nonsense? It is not going to happen!

You can laugh all you like but you are going to realize the blasphemy of your false theology when Christ, who is our life, comes - and that is when you will also learn what His spiritual Kingdom on earth is and how it is within those of us who believe His words and His words only - which does not at this point include you,

because you believe your own theology concocted in your own mind that makes Satan so powerful that God needed to first send Jesus to die and rise again - not (according to you) to undo his power over death by giving us eternal life - Christ IN us - but (according to you) to bind the devil's ability to deceive the nations, as though the Kingdom wasn't always God's and the Holy Spirit was never, and isn't, and would not have been powerful enough to work in the hearts and minds of human beings without Satan's ability to deceive and influence the nations being "bound".

It's blasphemous insinuations that you make, which are implied by your false theology - and you are going to realize it when He comes.

 

[Zao is life]

You make some very good points here. Especially when you made this point and similar points---"Why don't you mention scriptures talking about Satan being bound so that he is unable to go about as "the prince of the power of the air who works in the sons of disobedience", deceiving the nations, etc etc"?

I haven't read this entire thread yet but have read from page 1 up to this point. So then, did @Spiritual Israelite eventually ever get around to talking about any of those things?

I don't remember if he replied to the above or not - but this is how he replied to the following question I asked him:

Thanks for your reply @Spiritual Israelite, I appreciate it.

But you went to other subjects and did not actually address my contention.

Let's forget about Satan's binding for the moment. Because my question regarding Revelation 20:4 has nothing to do with that.

My question regarding Revelation 20:4 is based on this:

"And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads" (Revelation 13:15-16).

1. Worship of the beast.
2. Receiving his mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads.

Revelation 20:4 is talking about souls who had not done that. That's how the verse is identifying the souls its talking about.
​

Yes, exactly. But, the key is to understand what the beast represents and what the mark of the beast represents. That's not an easy task, which is why I'm saying we need to use other ways to help determine the timing of Revelation 20 as well, which is why I pointed out what we can glean from Revelation 20:6.

So my question is:

Is Revelation 20:4 it implying that those would had not done that because they had lived and been beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God before the events of Revelation 13 occurred?

(and therefore were not faced with the choice implied by the words "not worshiped the beast nor received his mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads..")?

(The reason I see it as important, is because Revelation 20:4 is not talking about any other souls - it's not saying anything about all other souls who ever had died in Christ).

No, they would have lived during that time. But, what time period does that represent? I'm sure we disagree on that. One thing to consider is, as John said in Revelation 17:8, the beast "was" even before he wrote the book of Revelation. The beast is not just a future entity.

In other words @Davidpt , @Spiritual Israelite can see how his theory breaks down where Revelation 20:4 identifies those it's talking about, so he has to adjust his understanding of what the beast represents so that he can adjust the timing implied by the identity Revelation 20:4 gives to the souls it's talking about.

It's so obvious how he omits the fact that John was also told that the beast that had existed before his time would once again ascend from the abyss, and also says that it's the 8th king and was one of the seven (etc).

So he omits mentioning anything that mentions that Revelation 20:4 identifies the souls it's talking about as those who had been beheaded by the beast that ascended from out of the abyss - and mentions only the fact that John was told had existed before his time.

It's clear that he does not have a real answer, so he once again has needed to adjust what the beast represents in his own mind - so as to get scripture to comply with Amillennialism.

That's why I realize it's pointless talking to someone who cannot acknowledge scripture or what scripture says when it affects a theology they need scripture to comply with - because they will instead develop ad-hoc theories to explain the anomalies - every time.

 

[WPM]

You can laugh all you like but you are going to realize the blasphemy of your false theology when Christ, who is our life, comes - and that is when you will also learn what His spiritual Kingdom on earth is and how it is within those of us who believe His words and His words only - which does not at this point include you, because you believe your own theology concocted in your own mind that makes Satan so powerful that God needed to first send Jesus to die and rise again - not (according to you) to undo his power over death by giving us eternal life - Christ IN us - but (according to you) to bind the devil's ability to deceive the nations, as though the Kingdom wasn't always God's and the Holy Spirit was never, and isn't, and would not have been powerful enough to work in the hearts and minds of human beings without Satan's ability to deceive and influence being bound.

It's blasphemous insinuations that you make, which are implied by your false theology - and you are going to realize it when He comes.

LOL. You talk some nonsense! What blaspheme are you talking about? Believing Amil? Disagreeing with your Premil teaching?

I don't think so. Get a life! Grow up!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL. You talk some nonsense! What blaspheme are you talking about? Believing Amil? Disagreeing with your Premil teaching?

I don't think so. Get a life! Grow up!

He has completely lost his mind and his ability to reason. How are we blaspheming when we are the ones who are constantly exalting Christ as the King of kings and Lord of lords right now in His position at the right hand of the Father "far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named" while having "all things under His feet" and being "head over all things to the church" (Ephesians 1:19-22)? His nonsense is pathetic.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't remember if he replied to the above or not - but this is how he replied to the following question I asked him:


In other words @Davidpt , @Spiritual Israelite can see how his theory breaks down where Revelation 20:4 identifies those it's talking about, so he has to adjust his understanding of what the beast represents so that he can adjust the timing implied by the identity Revelation 20:4 gives to the souls it's talking about.

LOL. I have adjusted nothing. My understanding of the beast and of Revelation 20 lines up with the rest of scripture, unlike yours.

It's so obvious how he omits the fact that John was also told that the beast that had existed before his time would once again ascend from the abyss, and also says that it's the 8th king and was one of the seven (etc).

How about you tell me your understanding of the beast instead of just spewing your usual nonsense?

So he omits mentioning anything that mentions that Revelation 20:4 identifies the souls it's talking about as those who had been beheaded by the beast that ascended from out of the abyss - and mentions only the fact that John was told had existed before his time.

Where in Revelation 20 does it say that they are beheaded by the beast only after it ascends from out of the abyss? Nowhere. You are making things up.

It's clear that he does not have a real answer, so he once again has needed to adjust what the beast represents in his own mind - so as to get scripture to comply with Amillennialism.

Nonsense. You are full of lies and you have nothing else to offer.

That's why I realize it's pointless talking to someone who cannot acknowledge scripture or what scripture says when it affects a theology they need scripture to comply with - because they will instead develop ad-hoc theories to explain the anomalies - every time.

LOL. You are a complete joke at this point that no one can take seriously even a tiny bit. I feel sorry for you that you actually think you know what you're talking about, but in reality have no idea whatsoever.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You can laugh all you like but you are going to realize the blasphemy of your false theology when Christ, who is our life, comes - and that is when you will also learn what His spiritual Kingdom on earth is and how it is within those of us who believe His words and His words only - which does not at this point include you,

because you believe your own theology concocted in your own mind that makes Satan so powerful that God needed to first send Jesus to die and rise again - not (according to you) to undo his power over death by giving us eternal life - Christ IN us - but (according to you) to bind the devil's ability to deceive the nations, as though the Kingdom wasn't always God's and the Holy Spirit was never, and isn't, and would not have been powerful enough to work in the hearts and minds of human beings without Satan's ability to deceive and influence the nations being "bound".

It's blasphemous insinuations that you make, which are implied by your false theology - and you are going to realize it when He comes.

Your Satanic accusations of blasphemy against us when we are not blaspheming anyone show that you have completely lost it and are allowing Satan to wickedly influence your mind. I would never talk about Premils the way you talk about us. Being Amil or Premil is not the determining factor in whether anyone is a Christian or is blaspheming, but that's what you're making it out to be, which is utterly foolish. We are simply promoting the power of Christ and those who belong to Him over our spiritual enemies, but you don't seem to want to acknowledge that authority that we have through Christ because of the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. In Old Testament times believers did not have the Holy Spirit permanently indwelling them, so they did not have the authority we have now through Christ and the Holy Spirit over the spiritual enemy. That's why it says that the power of death was taken away from the devil by Christ on the cross. You can't even recognize the difference between what Satan was able to do in OT times compared to NT times.

 

[Zao is life]

Your Satanic accusations of blasphemy against us when we are not blaspheming anyone show that you have completely lost it and are allowing Satan to wickedly influence your mind. I would never talk about Premils the way you talk about us. Being Amil or Premil is not the determining factor in whether anyone is a Christian or is blaspheming, but that's what you're making it out to be, which is utterly foolish. We are simply promoting the power of Christ and those who belong to Him over our spiritual enemies, but you don't seem to want to acknowledge that authority that we have through Christ because of the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. In Old Testament times believers did not have the Holy Spirit permanently indwelling them, so they did not have the authority we have now through Christ and the Holy Spirit over the spiritual enemy. That's why it says that the power of death was taken away from the devil by Christ on the cross. You can't even recognize the difference between what Satan was able to do in OT times compared to NT times.

As we all know, in a parable (the scripture says Jesus was using a parable) Jesus in effect reminded the Pharisees that

1. God is infinitely more powerful than Satan; and
2. The fact that Jesus had cast out demons from a man was proof that Jesus had cast out demons by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The "strong man's house" in the parable represents the body of the man that was possessed by Satan's servants, his demons, but you twist it to mean the whole world and to be referring to Satan being restricted by God with regard to his ability to deceive the nations (Ephesians 2:2; Revelation 20:3) so that the good news of the Kingdom of Christ (Matthew 24:14) could spread.

Your blasphemy does not consist in the fact that you twist the above scripture to be talking about Satan being bound with regard to his deception of the nations and influence over the minds of humans.

Your blasphemy consists in the fact that in so doing you imply that Satan is the opposite of God so that his power needed to be restricted, because what you assert implies that the power of the God, the Holy Spirit, was somehow diminished until the time of Jesus's death and resurrection, and that it was diminished through Satan's ability to deceive the nations.

Satan is not the opposite of God. God has no opposite. The fact that Satan's will is in opposition to God's will does not mean that Satan is the opposite of God.

Besides this, the only power Satan has to deceive the nations is the power that human beings give him through the power human beings give his lies - through their believing of his lies - and Jesus tells us why human beings do this in John 3:19-20.

God Himself does not give Satan power to deceive. Darkness never "receives power" from the light. Neither does Satan receive power to deceive from himself, because he has no power to dish out to himself in the first place.

Satan has no power to deceive human beings until human beings give Satan that power to deceive them - and in the process humans have appointed him as their "prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience" (Ephesians 2:2).

God has never needed to restrict Satan's ability to deceive the nations in order for the Holy Spirit to work - and that fact is what Jesus was reminding the Pharisees of when He cast a demon out of a man and was accused of doing so by the power of Satan.

Your twisting of that particular scripture is blasphemous.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

As we all know, in a parable (the scripture says Jesus was using a parable) Jesus in effect reminded the Pharisees that

1. God is infinitely more powerful than Satan; and
2. The fact that Jesus had cast out demons from a man was proof that Jesus had cast out demons by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The "strong man's house" in the parable represents the body of the man that was possessed by Satan's servants, his demons, but you twist it to mean the whole world and to be referring to Satan being restricted by God with regard to his ability to deceive the nations (Ephesians 2:2; Revelation 20:3) so that the good news of the Kingdom of Christ (Matthew 24:14) could spread.

Your blasphemy does not consist in the fact that you twist the above scripture to be talking about Satan being bound with regard to his deception of the nations and influence over the minds of humans.

Your blasphemy consists in the fact that in so doing you imply that Satan is the opposite of God so that his power needed to be restricted, because what you assert implies that the power of the God, the Holy Spirit, was somehow diminished until the time of Jesus's death and resurrection, and that it was diminished through Satan's ability to deceive the nations.

Your foolishness continues. I NEVER said anything about God's power ever being diminished and NEVER said anything about Satan's power being equal to God's. Satan's binding has nothing to do with that. You have nothing but lies to offer. Everyone can see that. You are pathetic. Scripture is very clear that a significant change occurred in relation to what God, who is all powerful, allowed Satan, who is not all powerful, to do in New Testament times compared to previously in Old Testament times. In Old Testament times Satan held the power of death. That is a fact proven by Hebrews 2:14-15 which says that Christ took the power of death away from the devil, Satan, by way of His death on the cross. And verses like 1 John 3:8 talk about the purpose of Jesus coming being to destroy the works of the devil.

So, clearly, the devil's power was diminished after the first coming of Christ. And I believe his binding relates to that. How is that blasphemous? It's not. You are a liar and are unable to support your false doctrine with scripture, so you resort to lies about what Amills believe out of desperation.

Satan is not the opposite of God. God has no opposite.

I have never said he is! Hello? Wake up. Stop wasting so much time arguing with a strawman. That is pathetic. I feel sorry for you that you waste so much time addressing your imaginary strawman instead of addressing what I actually believe.

The fact that Satan's will is in opposition to God's will does not mean that Satan is the opposite of God.

Besides this, the only power Satan has to deceive the nations is the power that human beings give him through the power human beings give his lies - through their believing of his lies - and Jesus tells us why human beings do this in John 3:19-20.

God Himself does not give Satan power to deceive. Darkness never "receives power" from the light. Neither does Satan receive power to deceive from himself, because he has no power to dish out to himself in the first place.

Satan has no power to deceive human beings until human beings give Satan that power to deceive them - and in the process humans have appointed him as their "prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience" (Ephesians 2:2).

God has never needed to restrict Satan's ability to deceive the nations in order for the Holy Spirit to work - and that fact is what Jesus was reminding the Pharisees of when He cast a demon out of a man and was accused of doing so by the power of Satan.

Your twisting of that particular scripture is blasphemous.

May God have mercy on your soul for lying about me and blatantly misrepresenting what I believe. I do not believe that Satan's power ever has been equal to God's. You should be ashamed of yourself for being a liar and blatantly misrepresenting what I believe. You blatantly, wickedly lie just because of your desperation to keep your doctrine afloat. That is just sad.