22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Status
Not open for further replies.

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,499
21,646
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I still don’t understand. Maybe an example or two would help?
Looking at the "elect", or "holy ones". This is throughout Isaiah, Daniel, other passages. In the OT this points to Israel. In that time, you could only enter covenant with God by joining Israel. Had Israel received their Messiah, they would have received the kingdom, and this would continue, as Israel would be the head of nations, and the gentiles would come into Israel.

After the Jew's rejection of Jesus (Acts 28), the Gospel was sent directly to the gentiles, and the "elect", or "chosen" became applied to gentiles also apart from Israel. "Saints" in the OT is in the same way, only Israel had covenant with God, only Israel was set apart by Him.

So now we read about "the elect", or "chosen", or "saints" and apply that to "all the people of God", including both Jew and Gentile, and rightly so, for that is what we are. However, when we return to OT prophecies, that's not the way the language was used,

Daniel 7:25 KJV
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Many people take this passage to mean that the Christians will be handed over to the fourth kingdom,

Revelation 13:6-8 KJV
6) And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

This passage is parallel to Daniel.

Some will point to "make war with the saints, and overcome them".

You can look at that as, he'll make war with the Christian church, and overcome it, but, "greater is he who is in you", "the wicked one touches him not", passages like that show otherwise.

Israel was called the saints, the holy ones, and then the gentile believers were also called that. But not in Daniel's day. Not under that covenant.

Missing this distinction can lead to misinterpreting the prophecies to include those who are not actually included, and to seemingly irreconcileable conflicts. And some solve these conflicts by saying, "So, this prophecy SAYS this certain thing, but it can't really mean that, it must mean this." But because they are looking at OT prophecies in a mixed "Israel/Church" POV, while the Church was a mystery revealed through Paul, not before that, this confusion results.

Does that help?

Much love!
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
5,425
2,204
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Sitting at the right hand makes Him subordinate to the Father. History will teach you that.

Jesus rules the church without doubt. but He has not begun His earthly reign yet.

all you have to do is compare the Scriptures that describe what earth will look like wqhen He is ruling and look at one news broadcast and see they are not congruent.

Unless you lean towards the Watchtower and imply Jesus hasn't been able to defeat Satan yet.

I already showed you the biblical evidence and you already sidestepped the evidence. I will repost. Please address the text instead of always presenting your own opinions. This is a common Premil trait.

Jesus said Revelation 3:21: “I … overcame.”

Revelation 5:5 tells us: “behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed.”

The lion is known as the king of the jungle. It carries great authority and power. That is a very potent symbol of who Jesus is. By the way, the Bible does not say that Satan is a lion. It says that he walks about “like” a lion.

Ephesians 1:17-21, the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.”

This passage confirms the absolute authority that Christ now enjoys and reveals the unlimited scope of His current rule. It explicitly illustrates the current sovereign reign of Christ over all His enemies from the “right hand” of majesty on high.

Philippians 2:9-11 says, wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name.”

He reigns today over the seen and the unseen world making every power and every authority “subject unto him.”

1 Peter 3:22 says, that Christ, who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God (now!!!); angels and authorities and powers being (currently!!!) made subject unto him.”

Those who question Christ’s current reign do great assault upon the truth of God’s Word and undermine the current sovereign kingly position that He now assuredly holds.

Heaven’s authority is bestowed upon Christ. He is God! Colossians 2:9-10, 14-15 confirms: "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power … Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”

He is risen and He is reigning! He is ruling over everything! This is happening right now! Check out the actual original text and check out the tenses involved. Christ’s universal rule, which is found in His divine character, exercises supreme authority over everything and everyone that exists. This dominion is seen in His sovereign dealing with mankind, whether it is with an individual person or with accumulation of nations – all are subject to his controlling power and ultimate influence. Such authority could be justly described as Christ’s providential kingship.

Colossians 1:15-17 addresses the great sovereign reign of Christ over all creation. Stating, Christ, “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”

These passages couldn’t be stronger in outlining where supreme authority lies today. Christ sovereignly reigns in kingly power over all creation.

1 Corinthians 15:25-28, saying: he must reign (present tense), till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For ’he hath put’ (present tense) all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued (or subordinated) unto him (speaking of the second coming), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Here he shows that Christ is reigning now. It is written in the present, active infinitive sense. How long does he reign? He confirms: “till he hath put all enemies under his feet.” Again, this couldn’t be clearer! Every last enemy will be subjugated and subdued at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. The last enemy is identified as death!

There you have it! The second coming sees the final “put down” of all:

· rule
· authority
· power
· death

Hebrews 1:1-3, 2:6-8 says, “God … hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things … Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high … What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: Thou hast put all things in subjection (present tense) under his feet. For in that ‘he put all in subjection’ (present tense) under him, he left nothing that is not put under him."

Here we see our Lord’s awesome authority.

1 Timothy 1:17 describes Christ as the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God.”

John Flavel says of Christ: “He rules and orders the Kingdom of Providence by supporting, permitting, restraining, limiting, protecting, punishing and rewarding those over whom He reigns providentially.”

Christ has set bounds upon wickedness. He limits the power and influence of the kingdom of darkness. He has spiritual limitations upon the movement and debauchery of Satan and his demons.

That is why Christ is called a King. He is ruler. He is a judge. He is Potentate. He carries ultimate authority.

As A.W. Pink puts it so well: “The limits of evil-doing and of evildoers has been divinely defined and cannot be exceeded.”
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Your answers always seem framed to allow Premil even though the text contradicts your claims.

hmmm…okay.
I think the text about some people still dying contradicts your claim that verse 20 is the NHNE.
:I know:
 
Last edited:

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,689
3,768
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I already showed you the biblical evidence and you already sidestepped the evidence. I will repost. Please address the text instead of always presenting your own opinions. This is a common Premil trait.

Jesus said Revelation 3:21: “I … overcame.”

Revelation 5:5 tells us: “behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed.”

The lion is known as the king of the jungle. It carries great authority and power. That is a very potent symbol of who Jesus is. By the way, the Bible does not say that Satan is a lion. It says that he walks about “like” a lion.

Ephesians 1:17-21, the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.”

This passage confirms the absolute authority that Christ now enjoys and reveals the unlimited scope of His current rule. It explicitly illustrates the current sovereign reign of Christ over all His enemies from the “right hand” of majesty on high.

Philippians 2:9-11 says, wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name.”

He reigns today over the seen and the unseen world making every power and every authority “subject unto him.”

1 Peter 3:22 says, that Christ, who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God (now!!!); angels and authorities and powers being (currently!!!) made subject unto him.”

Those who question Christ’s current reign do great assault upon the truth of God’s Word and undermine the current sovereign kingly position that He now assuredly holds.

Heaven’s authority is bestowed upon Christ. He is God! Colossians 2:9-10, 14-15 confirms: "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power … Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”

He is risen and He is reigning! He is ruling over everything! This is happening right now! Check out the actual original text and check out the tenses involved. Christ’s universal rule, which is found in His divine character, exercises supreme authority over everything and everyone that exists. This dominion is seen in His sovereign dealing with mankind, whether it is with an individual person or with accumulation of nations – all are subject to his controlling power and ultimate influence. Such authority could be justly described as Christ’s providential kingship.

Colossians 1:15-17 addresses the great sovereign reign of Christ over all creation. Stating, Christ, “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”

These passages couldn’t be stronger in outlining where supreme authority lies today. Christ sovereignly reigns in kingly power over all creation.

1 Corinthians 15:25-28, saying: he must reign (present tense), till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For ’he hath put’ (present tense) all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued (or subordinated) unto him (speaking of the second coming), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Here he shows that Christ is reigning now. It is written in the present, active infinitive sense. How long does he reign? He confirms: “till he hath put all enemies under his feet.” Again, this couldn’t be clearer! Every last enemy will be subjugated and subdued at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. The last enemy is identified as death!

There you have it! The second coming sees the final “put down” of all:

· rule
· authority
· power
· death

Hebrews 1:1-3, 2:6-8 says, “God … hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things … Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high … What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: Thou hast put all things in subjection (present tense) under his feet. For in that ‘he put all in subjection’ (present tense) under him, he left nothing that is not put under him."

Here we see our Lord’s awesome authority.

1 Timothy 1:17 describes Christ as the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God.”

John Flavel says of Christ: “He rules and orders the Kingdom of Providence by supporting, permitting, restraining, limiting, protecting, punishing and rewarding those over whom He reigns providentially.”

Christ has set bounds upon wickedness. He limits the power and influence of the kingdom of darkness. He has spiritual limitations upon the movement and debauchery of Satan and his demons.

That is why Christ is called a King. He is ruler. He is a judge. He is Potentate. He carries ultimate authority.

As A.W. Pink puts it so well: “The limits of evil-doing and of evildoers has been divinely defined and cannot be exceeded.”


He has prevailed, he has overcome, he sits at teh right hand of the Father, He will reign. BUT BUT BUT:

Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

He has not taken control yet! When He does then the kingdom will be just like the OT says it will be.
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So, this army rises up in their billions (as the sand of the sea) and surround the camp of the saints in order to destroy them and you do not think that constitutes learning war? That does make sense.

Im not sure why you think war could not come one last time after that period of no war once satan is released to deceive again…
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
He has prevailed, he has overcome, he sits at teh right hand of the Father, He will reign. BUT BUT BUT:

Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

He has not taken control yet! When He does then the kingdom will be just like the OT says it will be.

Aaah…very good!

I mean…they might think that 7th angel already sounded, that’s a possibility. But the verse helped me!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ronald Nolette

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,432
584
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The OT prophets were talking about the NT area not the so called literal 1000 years.

Nowhere does the OT mention a thousand year time period. Even in Revelation 20 Jesus is not once mentioned as living on the earth for a 1000 years or even that the 1000 years is a time of peace.

The OT prophets were talking about the NT age when the Jews and the gentiles would live as one within the church. Thus the lion, Wolfe and the Leopard (all described as Israel's enemies) would lay with the lamb(Israel) they would finally live together in peace within the church because Jesus made us all one flock.
Give me one shred of evidence that the enemies of Israel has allowed Israel to exist in peace and harmony. Israel was not even a recognized nation between the Assyrian capture of the 10 northern tribes until at least 1948. Judaea had a short life of over 500 years. How could the Lamb be in existence prior to 1948?

So wolves and the enemy is supposed to still be wolves and the enemy within the church? The verse does not say they become Lamb's. If you are going to make a national interpretation, then it has to work on the national level. The church does not bring nations together. The church works at the level of the citizens and changes a nation from within. The less there are believers in a nation, the less it will recognize what Israel is. For that prophecy to work, Jesus has to radically change Israel first, and that won't happen until the Second Coming.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,848
3,271
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I don’t disregard that scripture. I just don’t think verse 20 is talking about the NHNE.
Its my opinion you disregard the words of God before your eyes, because you question them at every corner

Isaiah 65:17-20 & Revelation 21:1-5 are "Parallel" teachings of the same exact place, the New Heaven and Earth, you don't believe this fact, in a pre-determined bias believing Isaiah 65 is a Millennial Kingdom on this earth "Wrong"

Isaiah 65:17KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spiritual Israelite

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
5,425
2,204
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
hmmm…okay.
I think the text about some people still dying contradicts your claim that verse 20 is the NHNE.
:I know:

I showed you above how that is not true. Once again, you ignored that. Sadly, this seems to be your pattern.
 

Marty fox

Well-Known Member
Jun 1, 2021
2,301
894
113
54
Vancouver
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Give me one shred of evidence that the enemies of Israel has allowed Israel to exist in peace and harmony. Israel was not even a recognized nation between the Assyrian capture of the 10 northern tribes until at least 1948. Judaea had a short life of over 500 years. How could the Lamb be in existence prior to 1948?

So wolves and the enemy is supposed to still be wolves and the enemy within the church? The verse does not say they become Lamb's. If you are going to make a national interpretation, then it has to work on the national level. The church does not bring nations together. The church works at the level of the citizens and changes a nation from within. The less there are believers in a nation, the less it will recognize what Israel is. For that prophecy to work, Jesus has to radically change Israel first, and that won't happen until the Second Coming.

You totally misunderstood what I said.

What I am saying is that those animals were described as enemies of Israel in the bible. Now since the first advent the Jews and Gentiles (the lion, leopard, Wolfe and the sheep) now live peacefully together within the church. We are now all sheep that our Shepard made into one flock.

John 10:16
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
5,425
2,204
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
He has prevailed, he has overcome, he sits at teh right hand of the Father, He will reign. BUT BUT BUT:

Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

He has not taken control yet! When He does then the kingdom will be just like the OT says it will be.

No. The Scriptures say He reigns now. There is nothing that is not under His feet. This demolishes your claims. You render Him impotent and powerless. What you do is, strip Jesus of His sovereign power today (by your faulty theology). You dethrone Him from the right hand of majesty on high. This is convenient for you, because you then have man calling the shots and God reacting to man. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Jesus testified after His resurrection: “All power [or authority] is given unto me in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18).

Jesus rules and reigns today over all creation. There is nothing that is not under His feet. What He says goes! This is biblical bedrock! This is a foundational Christian truth.

I mean, how much more power than “all power ... in heaven and in earth” does He need to exercise power and authority over His enemies?

Romans 9:5 confirms, in an often-overlooked passage: “as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all.”

This proves that Christ has already come and now exercises kingship today over all mankind. It means: He carries the Father’s divine authority. He is currently enthroned. This is Sovereign power! He holds this today upon His Father’s throne as God and upon David’s throne as Messiah. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority.

Revelation 3:7 tells us: “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key (or authority) of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.”

He holds all power (without qualification). After all, He is God! God either causes or permits - as He is God and He is sovereign. Simple! That is an explicit biblical truth and a Christian fundamental. The powerful language that accompanies the mention of Christ holding the key of David proves that this is referring to His majestic power and might.

It is all fine-and-dandy you recognizing this intellectually in your mind, but you need to know this experientially in your heart.

This is basically telling us that God is in complete control of our life. He will open the doors as He sees fit and close doors that He doesn’t want us going through.

Believers, as they walk this Christian path, should see supernatural events and opportunities occurring around them that they could never have orchestrated or manipulated themselves. This is where you can tangibly identify the hand of God at work in your life.

When Jesus stood before Pilate during His trial, Pilate lectured Jesus,

John 19:10-11: “knowest thou not that I have power [or authority] to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power [or authority] at all against me, except it were given thee from above.”

It is the same for us: people can only do to us what God allows.

Basically, there is nothing that is not under God’s control or influence.

If He was in Washington DC today He would tell the politicians the same thing. They are never going to silence His voice. They are never going to overthrow Him. The gates of hell will never prevail against His Church.

When Christians talk about Satan, they often get awkward, uneasy and sometimes even fearful and superstitious. It is as if Satan has a place of power in their minds that allows him do whatever he wants, whenever he wants.

If you say that Satan is stupid, or he is a loser, they get freaked out. Well, brother and sister, the Bible shows the devil to be both. We are just relaying the truth!
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Its my opinion you disregard the words of God before your eyes, because you question them at every corner

Isaiah 65:17-20 & Revelation 21:1-5 are "Parallel" teachings of the same exact place, the New Heaven and Earth, you don't believe this fact, in a pre-determined bias believing Isaiah 65 is a Millennial Kingdom on this earth "Wrong"

Isaiah 65:17KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Then how is the death in verse 20 explained if verse 20 is NHNE?
You know, it wouldn’t do any harm to your assertion if verse 20 jumps backward. There were no chapter headings originally, so I wouldn’t follow chapters and chapter headings added later with any sort of religiosity.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
4,330
1,839
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You claimed it was another vision.

The ONLY way to see that is if John said, and he saw another vision
He did. What are you reading?

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

So please do not falsly accuse me of something that I did not do
I didn't.

2nd. I wrote the passage was written without verse breaks or a chapter break. You can;t sit there and read it and say that it is another vision. They are things which happened AT THE SAME TIME after something happened.
That's your false assumption. Imagine doing the same thing with Revelation 11 and 12. Your approach is faulty, as I already pointed out. If you don't want to acknowledge that, so be it.

Your argument in rev 12 does not fit. Rev 12: 1 does is not something which happened in sequence after rev 11. Rev 11 ended with the last trumpet. There was nt another trumpet after that. Rev 12 is a totally different context vision.
LOL. And that is the case for Revelation 20 compared to Revelation 19 as well. Different context. You conveniently overlook that.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
4,330
1,839
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No. The Scriptures say He reigns now. There is nothing that is not under His feet. This demolishes your claims. You render Him impotent and powerless. What you do is, strip Jesus of His sovereign power today (by your faulty theology). You dethrone Him from the right hand of majesty on high. This is convenient for you, because you then have man calling the shots and God reacting to man. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Jesus testified after His resurrection: “All power [or authority] is given unto me in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18).

Jesus rules and reigns today over all creation. There is nothing that is not under His feet. What He says goes! This is biblical bedrock! This is a foundational Christian truth.

I mean, how much more power than “all power ... in heaven and in earth” does He need to exercise power and authority over His enemies?
Exactly. He is fighting an uphill battle against clear, straightforward scripture. They like to criticize us Amils for supposedly spiritualizing everything, but they balk at it when we take scriptures like Matthew 28:18 literally and straightforwardly. It's ridiculous.
 
  • Like
Reactions: WPM

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
4,330
1,839
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Then how is the death in verse 20 explained if verse 20 is NHNE?
You know, it wouldn’t do any harm to your assertion if verse 20 jumps backward. There were no chapter headings originally, so I wouldn’t follow chapters and chapter headings added later with any sort of religiosity.
How do you explain verse 20 in light of verse 19?

Isaiah 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Do you think this is talking about a time when people won't mourn their loved one's death? Doesn't taking verse 20 literally to be talking about people dying at that time make nonsense out of verse 19? I think so. Doesn't verse 19 remind you of this verse:

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
 
  • Like
Reactions: WPM

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
4,330
1,839
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
He has prevailed, he has overcome, he sits at teh right hand of the Father, He will reign. BUT BUT BUT:

Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

He has not taken control yet! When He does then the kingdom will be just like the OT says it will be.
Please read that verse more carefully. Notice it talks about "the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ". So, "our Lord" here is referring to God the Father. Since His resurrection, Jesus was given all authority in heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18) and has been reigning. John 5:22 says "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son". That means God the Father put His Son in charge. But, after the seventh trumpet sounds when Jesus returns, He will deliver the kingdom to the Father (1 Cor 15:22-24) at which point the Father will reign with His Son at His side on the new earth for eternity.
 

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2020
14,559
8,248
113
58
Columbus, ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
He did. What are you reading?

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

I read the end of chapter 19 and the begining of chapter 20 as one comment. three characters who are involved in the last days upon christs return. and three things whihc happened to all three

I saw this, then I saw that, then I saw that,.

I didn't.
Yes you did
That's your false assumption. Imagine doing the same thing with Revelation 11 and 12. Your approach is faulty, as I already pointed out. If you don't want to acknowledge that, so be it.
I already showed you how this logic is false. and your argument falls

LOL. And that is the case for Revelation 20 compared to Revelation 19 as well. Different context. You conveniently overlook that.

I did not overlook anything. You have failed to prove you point IN the passage.. You did not show me where chapter 20 is a different context.

once again. God did not write the letter 20 in the bible. nor did John, It was one letter..

Read it as the letter.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
4,330
1,839
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Sitting at the right hand makes Him subordinate to the Father. History will teach you that.
So, you don't accept what Jesus Himself said then?

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Does Jesus have all power in heaven and earth or not? He said that was given to Him. Shouldn't we believe Him?

Look at this:

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

You're not understanding that Jesus is in full control now. It is not until His second coming that He will deliver the kingdom that He is in charge of now to the Father.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.