The Problems of Perpetual Belief Alone Salvation-ism.

[Michiah-Imla]

Your sinless perfection interpretation remains in contradiction with 1 John 1:8-10; 2:1.

Learn what these mean first, and then you’ll understand what your holiness cryptonite verse is really saying:

“…go, and sin no more.” (John 8:11)

“We know that everyone who has been born of God does not continue to sin…” (1 John 5:18)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I have just prayed. I have an aspiration to share the Bible with women. Any prayers and advice on becoming more astute in the Bible is greatly appreciated.

Some Helpful Tips to Properly Interpret God's Word:

#1. Ask God for the understanding of His Word, i.e. "Give us this day our daily bread" (Sometimes this is a repeat process in that we have to keep asking; Especially when it comes to difficult passages).

#2. Context (Looking at the surrounding words, chapters).

#3. Read the most plainest meaning of the words in a text first in the English, unless the context and or other cross references indicate a meaning otherwise. While certain words in the Hebrew and Greek can be helpful, looking at the original language should be a last option (IMHO), and not as a way to read or interpret the Bible normally. The English should not conflict with the original languages. But some think otherwise. They think they know a dead language or that scholars are right, when this is not the case. Jesus said beware of the scribes. The scribes are those who tran-scribed the Scriptures. The scribes of our day would be the scholars. So be careful of what they say.

#4. Cross references (By 2-3 witnesses God's Word is confirmed) (But this is not always the case; For example: Folks can point out the prosperity gospel with Scripture or Eternal Security with several verses, but this does not mean that such beliefs are true if we look at the whole counsel of God's Word; Also the only verse in the Bible that point blank explains the Trinity is 1 John 5:7 in the King James Bible; No other verse really says the same thing like 1 John 5:7).

#5. Interpretation must be in line with basic morality (It disturbs me greatly when folks have an interpretation that ignores basic morality, like "Future Sin is Forgiven Us", or "Unconditional Election," etc.). People never really stop to examine their beliefs in light of whether or not it is morally good or wholesome.

#6. Keyword search studies (This is doing a search on how a particular word appears in the Bible and how it is used elsewhere as a way to determine other difficult passages or verses that are commonly taken out of context by others; I use BlueLetterBible, and PureKingJames software when I look up words to study sometimes).

#7. Realize that some words even in Modern Bibles may sometimes be archaic (older) that were influenced from the King James Bible. It does not mean these words are not correct, it just means that they are not in use anymore or as often. I use KingJamesBibleDictionary.com, Websters 1913, and other English dictionaries. A Defined King James Bible (by BibleForToday), or Archaic words and the Authorized Version by Laurence M. Vance are great tools (even if you may not hold to the view that King James Bible is superior in accuracy (not clarity) to other Bible translations like I do).

#8. Looking at what other believers have to say (I am not talking about the popular Bible commentators; I usually read a ton of Christian articles on a particular verse or passage from Bible Alone Trinitarian believers by scouring the internet and in praying to find the right answer).

#9. One needs to be born again by the Spirit and born by water (i.e. being born by water = being born by the Scriptures in the fact that we received the Word of God not as the words of men, but in fact as the very divine words of God Himself; Meaning, His Word is perfect and without error, and we have been broken and transformed by them with a godly sorrow in accepting Christ as our Savior and in believing in Christ's death and resurrection on our behalf).

#10. We need to agree with true godly living as the Bible describes it, and we need to be walking the talk; 1 Timothy 6:3-4 says that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. 1 John 2:3 says we can have an assurance in knowing the Lord if we find that we are keeping His commandments. The closer our walk in knowing the Lord, the closer we will be in our understanding of God's Word. For if we are not loving according to God's Word, we cannot have the depth of understanding of the deep things or treasures within God's Word.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am watching Allan Ballou's videos now and have subscribed to his Youtube channel.

Update:

I had to remove these videos from Alan Ballou (that I posted before).

While I liked Alan Ballou’s videos before on Sanctification and putting away sin and they were really helpful, the problem is he is a false accuser of the brethren. In the YouTube comment section in this video here, Alan Ballou falsely accused me of several things that I are not actually true. I said that while I agreed with his viewpoint on how there are two aspects of salvation, I told him that I disagree with his view on “obeying the gospel.” I told him “obeying the gospel“ is defined for us in Romans 10 in that it is believing the gospel message. He also implied there was no free will when we come to the Lord (Which is Calvinism), and he used John 6 as an example. I explained to him why this is not Calvinism and instead of disagreeing in love and respect, he started to falsely accuse me (as if I had teachers, and I went to bible college - when that is not the case). I tried to tell him in love that he was falsely accusing me here, and he never replied back. You can see the conversation under the same username I use here (Bible Highlighter) with there being 16 replies to my comment to him. I refuse to watch somebody who falsely accuses other Christians

 

[mailmandan]

I believe the Holy Scriptures. I just don't believe your misinterpretation of Scripture. 1 Peter 4:1 - Therefore, since Christ suffered in the flesh [and died for us], arm yourselves [like warriors] with the same purpose [being willing to suffer for doing what is right and pleasing God], because whoever has suffered in the flesh [being like-minded with Christ] is done with [intentional] sin [having stopped pleasing the world], 2 so that he can no longer spend the rest of his natural life living for human appetites and desires, but [lives] for the will and purpose of God. (AMP)

Your sinless perfection interpretation remains in contradiction with 1 John 1:8-10; 2:1.

In regards to John 14:12:

What does John 14:12 mean? | BibleRef.com

 

[mailmandan]

People who continue to read and obey the Holy Bible will see through all of your gimmicks. And you nakedly continue to add to scripture without shame at all.

So you offer an extra-biblical source for reference.

This speaks volumes Dan.

I refer you to this:

KING JAMES BIBLE ONLINE

You are the master of irony. Extra-biblical source? That source quotes Scripture and iron sharpens iron. I've already read the entire KJV multiple times, along with other translations as well.

 

[WalkInLight]

Whatever works for you is good. God has your healing and the renewing of your mind under control. I think I recognize you from an old forum, but forget what your name was there. It was bibleforums.org I think.

You recognize me...does this change things or am I easier to predict?

A relative said to me once that its impossible to change people. And they are right, when someone is hidden from themselves under layers of fake responses and pretend positions.

I like forums because we can try out new insights to people who have an interest.
Trouble is the loudest here often are the most set in their ways, and so convinced they are right, especially if their intent is to put other right...as if right is the key rather than learning to love and follow Jesus

God bless you

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You recognize me...does this change things or am I easier to predict?

No, it doesn’t change anything! I just thought I recognized you by your writing, that’s all. I want to say your name there was….David…? I was awestruckchild there by the way.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The sin and still be saved Christian is not going to change unless God intervenes or unless they are convicted by His Word. Right now, most are not going to change. They will lose friends and they will have to give up sin in order to change and that's not easy to do. We also don't know who will change. Only God does. So we will just keep preaching the truth against their sin and still be saved doctrine and know that if we sow the truth of God's Word, we shall also reap in God's timing.

 

[WalkInLight]

Your sinless perfection interpretation remains in contradiction with 1 John 1:8-10; 2:1.

Hi mailmandan,

What is sinless perfection? I ask because it strikes me you have to agree what sin is before one can say whether you can be without it or not, or even does sinless and perfection go together.

Let me elaborate. Sin in the sense Pharoah used it

27 Then Pharaoh summoned Moses and Aaron. "This time I have sinned," he said to them. "The LORD is in the right, and I and my people are in the wrong.
Exodus 9:27

This is an action in contravention or against another person which they have desired or asked for things to be different.

To a gnostic being physical is to be sinful, because physicality itself is a state of being wrong or evil.
To a legalist who wants no fault or guilt, everything is taken to an extreme where innocence is clear and there is no risk of failure.

Another layer is uncleanliness which is a circumstance which if not handled correctly leads to sin. Or making a vow or oath and then breaking it, or breaking a contract without an escape clause etc. Some go so far as to include all laws given by civil government, so parking fines, speeding, contraventions of safety etc. become sin.

So one person could say they have sinless perfection which is true based on how they define it, while another says liar, because their definition is different. Now both are correct in their definitions. One step lower is finding out how the Lord defines such things, as sin is often brought back to the Lords understanding, rather than peoples understanding.

Paul wrote this

But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin
Rom 14:23

"Everything is permissible for me"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"--but I will not be mastered by anything.
1 Cor 6:12

If in faith everything is permissible, then nothing is sinful. Paul is not saying murder, theft and adultery are permissible, but rather boundaries on food and Sabbaths are not binding. Interestingly the apostles included not eating food sacrificed to idols and not eating blood, while Paul said food sacrificed to idols was meaningless as idols were just lumps of stone and wood, so ignore it.

I would suggest Paul had a very different view to sin than his pharisee past, but not sin does not need to be repented from. Equally Paul said he was not yet perfect, however it could be judged, and we should judge no one as far as perfection goes.

So I have this problem with the phrase "sinless perfection" and would like clarity on it so I can say do I agree it is wrong or it is our goal, or it is not a helpful description?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hi mailmandan,

What is sinless perfection? I ask because it strikes me you have to agree what sin is before one can say whether you can be without it or not, or even does sinless and perfection go together.

Let me elaborate. Sin in the sense Pharoah used it

27 Then Pharaoh summoned Moses and Aaron. "This time I have sinned," he said to them. "The LORD is in the right, and I and my people are in the wrong.
Exodus 9:27

This is an action in contravention or against another person which they have desired or asked for things to be different.

To a gnostic being physical is to be sinful, because physicality itself is a state of being wrong or evil.
To a legalist for wants no fault or guilt, everything is taken to an extreme where innocence is clear and there is no risk of failure.

Another layer is uncleanliness which is a circumstance which if not handled correctly leads to sin. Or making a vow or oath and then breaking it, or breaking a contract without an escape clause etc. Some go so far as to include all laws given by civil government, so parking fines, speeding, contraventions of safety etc. become sin.

So one person could say they have sinless perfection which is true based on how they define it, while another says liar, because their definition is different. Now both are correct in their definitions. One step lower is finding out how the Lord defines such things, as sin is often brought bask to Him, rather than peoples understanding.

Paul wrote this

But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin
Rom 14:23

"Everything is permissible for me"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"--but I will not be mastered by anything.
1 Cor 6:12

If in faith everything is permissible, then nothing is sinful. Paul is not saying murder, theft and adultery are permissible, but rather boundaries on food and Sabbaths are not binding. Interestingly the apostles included not eating for sacrificed to idols and not eating blood, while Paul said food sacrificed to idols was meaningless as idols were just lumps of stone and wood, so ignore it.

I would suggest Paul had a very different view to sin than his pharisee past, but not sin does not need to be repented from. Equally Paul said he was not yet perfect, however it could be judged, and we should judge no one as far as perfection goes.

So I have this problem with the phrase "sinless perfection" and would like clarity on it so I can say do I agree it is wrong or it is our goal, or it is not a helpful description?

I don’t believe that Entire Sanctification or Sinless Perfection is a salvation issue (Even though I believe that such a thing is possible based on what Scripture says). Believers must meet the bare minimum requirements for holy living according to the New Testament to enter the Kingdom. I believe Sinless Perfection is going beyond the bare minimum level requirements of living holy to enter the Kingdom. So again, I don’t believe Sinless Perfection is a salvation issue. I don’t see all sin as the same in the Bible. Not all sin (or transgressions) condemns.

Not all sins are the same. There are “sins not unto death” and “sins unto death” (1 John 5:16-17).

In Matthew 5:22 we learn that Jesus teaches us about sins that do not lead to death and a sin that does lead to death.

“But I say to you that everyone who continues to be angry with his brother
or harbors malice against him shall be guilty before the court;
and whoever speaks [contemptuously and insultingly] to his brother,
‘Raca (You empty-headed idiot)!’ shall be guilty before the
supreme court (Sanhedrin); and whoever says,
‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of the fiery hell.”
(Matthew 5:22) (AMP).​

The words in blue above are “sins not unto death” because they are the kind of sins that lead to punishment in earthly courts, but the words in red above is a “sin unto death” because it involves punishment in the afterlife in fiery hell.

Of course a believer can confess and forsake sins unto death and be forgiven (as long as they are remorseful and they do not intend to sin again). But in the “Sin and Still Be Saved” or OSAS crowd, they believe they must sin again. This is a huge problem according to Scripture if we regard sin in our heart, God will not even hear us (Psalms 66:18) (John 9:31). In other words, God will not forgive us our sin if we confess it if we are planning to just sin again tomorrow or we believe we cannot help but to sin again on a daily or weekly basis. God will not hear our prayers for forgiveness if we regard sin or iniquity in our heart. We all need to cut off sin that leads to death, and fight and battle against it to make into the Kingdom.

The devil wants people to sin; It’s not God who will agree with anyone's sin.
Of course, this should be obvious. But they don't treat sin on the same level as God does according to His Word.
They treat sin as if they dropped a glass of milk on the floor or something. They see it as an accident and not as something that can separate them from God's Kingdom. The thing is that they don't want to do what is good and right, just as children don't want to do certain things their parents tell them to do. Disobedient children will use every trick in the book to not obey.

 

[Charlie24]

If you were to read both 1 Corinthians and 2 Corinthians you would know that the Corinthians had sinned (1 Corinthians 3, 1 Corinthians 5). Paul explains in 2 Corinthians 7:6-15 explains how they sought forgiveness with the Lord Jesus with a godly sorrow, and they had by forsaken their sins (i.e. repentance - 2 Corinthians 7:10). So their receiving of Titus in fear and trembling was most likely in their wondering if God was going to forgive them or not by the coming of Titus.

I say this because Paul says, “Again, think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God in Christ: but we do all things, dearly beloved, for your edifying. For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults: And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.” (2 Corinthians 12:19-21).

Meaning, Paul worried about them because of their sin.
So it's highly probable that the Corinthians worried because of the sin they committed, too. They were awaiting to see what Titus was going to say (seeing he was an authority sent from the apostle Paul from God).

Paul also says,

“Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?” (2 Corinthians 13:5).

Anyways, the problem I have with your belief Charlie is that you keep having to change or ignore the verses I put forth to you. If we were just talking about one verse like Philippians 2:12 and that was the only one in the Bible that appears to refute your false belief in that declare that you are sinner (present tense) saved by God's grace then there is a small percentage of a chance you could be correct. But the sheer number of verses on the warnings against how sin can destroy our soul, and or in being cast out because of unfruitfulness of not seeing God because of unholiness should give you pause to reconsider. But you simply don't like the many verses in the Bible that do give us these warnings. I have provided many of them to you so far, and you keep having to change them. That's what concerns me, Charlie. We are not talking about just one verse here; But many.

You know what it means, BH! You just won't admit it.

But that's ok you can stay with the works program, taking credit for your salvation.

Several here have shown you that Grace stands alone.

Several have shown you that you have grossly misunderstood James.

I see nothing else we can do.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You know what it means, BH! You just won't admit it.

But that's ok you can stay with the works program, taking credit for your salvation.

Several here have shown you that Grace stands alone.

Several have shown you that you have grossly misunderstood James.

I see nothing else we can do.

Sorry. This excuse is like that of a child who wants to justify disobedience. You are ignoring the many other verses I put forth here. For example: How do you undo the words of Jesus in Matthew 6:15? What about Paul’s words in Galatians 6:7-8 in sowing to the Spirit to reap life? In your view sowing to the Spirit is just like some kind of autopilot kind of thing. But you don’t even believe that is fully and 100% true because you said you are a sinner (present tense) saved by God’s grace. How can you sow to the Spirit and also declare that you are also sinning? What did Jesus say to those Christians who did wonderful works in His name and yet they also did sin or iniquity in Matthew 7:22-23? He said depart from me, ye that work iniquity. So you can keep changing the Bible to fit your belief and that may work for you and others now, but it will not work for you on Judgment day.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

You are the master of irony. Extra-biblical source? That source quotes Scripture and iron sharpens iron. I've already read the entire KJV multiple times, along with other translations as well.

Your source says this for starters:

“Full biblical context is incredibly important when attempting to interpret this verse. Some of Jesus' "works" were displays of unspeakable power, such as resurrecting the dead (John 11:43–44)…
Jesus' promise here is not that all who claim to be believers will be endowed with the power to raise the dead”

Perhaps your source author forgot about Peter raising the dead (Acts of the Apostles 9:40).

And the source goes on to say:
“Nor does Jesus mean to imply that future Christians would have widespread supernatural powers.”

This source also forgot about all the miracles that the Apostles did after his resurrection documented in the book of Acts.

“And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.” (Acts 5:12)

That stuff is nothing more than a promotion of faithless reasoning.

This is the kind of stuff that destroys the faith. Explanations of spiritual things from natural men for natural men.

 

[Charlie24]

Sorry. This excuse is like that of a child who wants to justify disobedience. You are ignoring the many other verses I put forth here. For example: How do you undo the words of Jesus in Matthew 6:15? What about Paul’s words in Galatians 6:7-8 in sowing to the Spirit to reap life? In your view sowing to the Spirit is just like some kind of autopilot kind of thing. But you don’t even believe that is fully and 100% true because you said you are a sinner (present tense) saved by God’s grace. How can you sow to the Spirit and also declare that you are also sinning? What did Jesus say to those Christians who did wonderful works in His name and yet they also did sin or iniquity in Matthew 7:22-23? He said depart from me, ye that work iniquity. So you can keep changing the Bible to fit your belief and that may work for you and others now, but it will not work for you on Judgment day.

This post you have here is undisputable proof that you DO NOT have a clear understanding of Grace!

Because you don't have that understanding, when I tell you I'm a sinner saved by Grace, you automatically take it not knowing what I'm speaking of!

Let's use Paul for an example for you to see why I call myself a sinner saved by Grace. Unlike some here, I believe you have a respect for the great apostle Paul, this is why I'm using Paul for an example.

Look at what he says here! Now remember, this is the greatest apostle and follower of Christ that man has ever known!

1 Cor. 15:9-10

"For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me."

Do you see the humility in Paul? The greatest of them all claiming he is a sinner not worthy to be an apostle.

But he gives the Grace of God all the glory and not anything he has done.

Paul seen himself as a sinner saved by Grace, but in the eyes of God, Paul was a mountain of faith, well pleasing to the Father.

 

[mailmandan]

Your source says this for starters:

“Full biblical context is incredibly important when attempting to interpret this verse. Some of Jesus' "works" were displays of unspeakable power, such as resurrecting the dead (John 11:43–44)…
Jesus' promise here is not that all who claim to be believers will be endowed with the power to raise the dead”

Perhaps your source author forgot about Peter raising the dead (Acts of the Apostles 9:40).

And the source goes on to say:
“Nor does Jesus mean to imply that future Christians would have widespread supernatural powers.”

This source also forgot about all the miracles that the Apostles did after his resurrection documented in the book of Acts.

“And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.” (Acts 5:12)

That stuff is nothing more than a promotion of faithless reasoning.

This is the kind of stuff that destroys the faith. Explanations of spiritual things from natural men for natural men.

At the hands of the spostles, many signs and wonders were performed, yes. The source was not teaching against this and simply said widespread supernatural powers. Nothing faithless about that. What's faithless is trusting in self for salvation and not in CHRIST ALONE. Self righteousness and self promotion is a major turn off and draws people away from the Christian faith.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Self righteousness and self promotion is a major turn off and draws people away from the Christian faith.

Of course SIN doesn’t do that, huh?

“Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.” (Proverbs 14:34)

 

[mailmandan]

Of course SIN doesn’t do that, huh?

“Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.” (Proverbs 14:34)

Self righteousness stems from PRIDE (and not from righteousness) which we all know is sin. (Luke 18:9-14)

How do we become righteous? (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9)

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Self righteousness stems from PRIDE (and not from righteousness) which we all know is sin. (Luke 18:9-14)

How do we become righteous? (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9)

The phrase “self-righteousness” is an unbiblical term. Heretics usually create these unbiblical terms, like “Trinity” and “God-man” as well.

You create heretics out of thin air.

This scripture seems to be presenting “self-righteousness” in good way:

“Now He who supplies seed to the sower, and bread for eating, may He supply and multiply your seed, and increase the fruits of your righteousness” (2 Corinthians 9:10)

 

[L.A.M.B.]

All I can do is be open and honest about what I see. I did originally use the words inadvertent and unintentional. I can’t help it if anyone takes offense at me while having conversation with me. All I can do is make sure I speak respectfully and with an open heart that wants to help anyone struggling. I can’t help how I am perceived. I can just speak as truthfully as I can and guard my own heart.
I know the struggles I’ve had with my trust and I try to help others in theirs. That was my intent. And while I don’t like when someone takes offense at me being open and honest, I can live with it.

No offense taken but I see your game.
This is twice you have played at " helping".
One more and we will not engage anymore.

Don't play the victim. Surely we all know how we write and phrase words.

Had it not been for your response to someone else's comment about a straw man argument, I would have continued to believe we were simply engaging. I had no idea you had an agenda.

I responded to the OP. You decided to engage.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

No offense taken but I see your game.
This is twice you have played at " helping".
One more and we will not engage anymore.

Don't play the victim. Surely we all know how we write and phrase words.

Had it not been for your response to someone else's comment about a straw man argument, I would have continued to believe we were simply engaging. I had no idea you had an agenda.

I responded to the OP. You decided to engage.

Ah, you caught me! I have an agenda of trying to help build up the trust of others! How sneaky of me!