22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Phoneman777]

That's quite a convenient way for you to interpret that passage.

It's got nothing to do with "convenience" and everything to do with "line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little." I incorporate all those texts which speak of a coming period of total emptiness on this planet, while you stubbornly ignore them.

It's quite clear that all people will be gathered before Christ on His throne just after He comes with His angels and then all people will be judged. There is absolutely no indication whatsoever that there will be any kind of significant time gap between His second coming and the judgment of all people.

You mean the 1,000 years separating the resurrection of the Just from the Damned is no indication? Didn't Jesus say He would separate the "sheep from the goats" and in the hearing of every ear would pronounce His Judgment? That can only take place at the end of the 1,000 years when all who have ever lived will be alive at that time, from Adam to the last one born on Earth.

Why do you think it would take long for Him to create the new heavens and new earth? I don't see that as something that will take much time for Him to do.

It's to show that even after 1,000 years, Satan and the wicked will refuse to change. When Satan is loosed from his "chains" of circumstance which rendered him unemployed 1,000 years before, he will go right back to doing what's he does best, as will the wicked when they are raised.

QUESTION: HOW CAN THE PROPHECY "EVERY KNEE BOW AND EVERY TONGUE WILL CONFESS" COME TO PASS AT THE SECOND COMING WHEN PEOPLE ARE FLEEING IN TERROR TO THE ROCKS AND MOUNTAINS, CALLING FOR THEM TO FALL DOWN ON THEM AND HIDE THEM AWAY FROM HIS FACE?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

"All Israel" in Romans 11 is the same "All Israel" as in Romans 9". Paul's doctrine is consisten

1. Includes grafted-in Gentiles.
2. Comprised of the unblinded elect, who are the Church saved by grace.
3. "All Israel" are the beloved elect. "Of Israel" are the enemies of the Gospel. Under no conditions or circumstances are enemies of the Gospel ever numbered with the beloved elect.

"All Israel" is spiritual Israel:

Not "of Israel"
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

"All Israel" is saved. "Of Israel" is lost.

"All Israel" in Romans 11 is the same "All Israel" as in Romans 9". Paul's doctrine is consistent.

1. Includes grafted-in Gentiles.
2. Comprised of the unblinded elect, who are the Church saved by grace.
3. "All Israel" are the beloved elect. "Of Israel" are the enemies of the Gospel. Under no conditions or circumstances are enemies of the Gospel ever numbered with the beloved elect.

"All Israel" is spiritual Israel:

Not "of Israel"
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

"All Israel" is saved. "Of Israel" is lost.

This is in error.

Paul spent all of romans 11 trying to warn gentiles not to be puffed up.
That you are unnatural branches.
That it is easier for the natural branch to be grafted in.
That through their unbelief you were grafted in
So through your unbelief they too will be grafted in
They they are blinded in part.
they will be grafted in.
They are the enemy concerning the gospel
They are beloved because of the election
That THEY will all be saved

You need to look at context of WHO is Israel in romans 11. Vs who are the gentiles (He did not call the gentile believers Israel in romans 11

You don;t look at romans 8 where paul was talking about a whole different context.

 

[WPM]

This is in error.

Paul spent all of romans 11 trying to warn gentiles not to be puffed up.
That you are unnatural branches.
That it is easier for the natural branch to be grafted in.
That through their unbelief you were grafted in
So through your unbelief they too will be grafted in
They they are blinded in part.
they will be grafted in.
They are the enemy concerning the gospel
They are beloved because of the election
That THEY will all be saved

You need to look at context of WHO is Israel in romans 11. Vs who are the gentiles (He did not call the gentile believers Israel in romans 11

You don;t look at romans 8 where paul was talking about a whole different context.

Paul shows throughout his teaching that there are two groups within Israel: one faithful and true, the other unfaithful and merely professing. One is known as “the election” (or “the elect”) and the other as the “blinded” or ‘hardened ones’. One is a friend of God, the other is an enemy of His. God shows Himself bound to one, and strongly against the other. Sadly, Dispensationalists back the wrong Israel in their teachings. They choose natural Christ-rejecting apostate Israel, above the elect spiritual remnant in order to justify their false doctrine. In doing so, they miss the whole development of faithful Israel into the New Testament Church.

We see the whole dichotomy between true Israel and false Israel throughout Romans 9-11. Romans 11:7-10 corresponds, “What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded [Gr. poroo – hardened]. (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.”

This is actually saying the opposite to what many Premillennialists argue. In fact, it is actually saying what is says: “Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for.” In short, salvation or favor with God has absolutely nothing to do with ethnicity. It is not about being an Israelite; it is nothing to do with racial status or nationality; it is all to do with being chosen – namely being one of God’s elect remnant. This is the only means of favor with God. This spiritual family are the true Israel and the only accepted people of God. To be of the “election” one has to have a real personal intimate relationship with Jesus Christ.

To paraphrase this passage and its meaning in common language, ‘it is not the sum-total of natural Israel that has obtained the salvation it wishes, but only they who have entered into the election of grace by faith; the remaining Israelis that depend upon their own pitiful religious efforts are blind’. God has only partially set Israel aside. A distinguished faithful remnant remains committed to Yahweh through faith in Christ. This indeed is “a remnant according to the election of grace.” Israel is hence split into two camps. Israel, like any other nation, had two distinct peoples, one saved and the other lost. The saved are God’ elect and have been saved by His wondrous grace. The lost foolishly depend upon their own works and are accordingly damned because of it.

The New King James Version is slightly clearer, “What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.”

Paul’s very statement “the rest were blinded” and his detailed description of the awful plight of such foolish Jews, supports the view that there are two distinct companies of Israeli in view – one being a band of “blinded” Israelis, the other a band of enlightened “elect” Israelis. This passage again reinforces Paul’s thought that the whole nation is not blinded, rather “blindness in part is happened to Israel” or ‘part of Israel is blind’. Whilst a large section of the nation has manifestly rejected Christ since the cross, and are therefore spiritually deceived by the devil (2 Corinthians 4:4), there is a small chosen assembly of Israelis throughout history that have eyes to see and ears to hear, who belong to the good olive tree. These believers are the faithful Israeli congregation (ekklesia) in both testatments that are transformed through faith in Messiah, and are the redeemed of God.

 

[Rich R]

Ephesians 3:6
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Along with all other promises, fulfilled, realized, actualized, and accomplished in Christ. (2 Corinthians 1:20)

Including the land of Canaan that God God promised Abraham? Usually there is a king in a kingdom, and Jesus isn't here yet to take the throne and execute judgment. Nor does it appear that the devil has been cast into the lake of fire which happens before the judgment in Rev 20.

 

[covenantee]

Including the land of Canaan that God God promised Abraham? Usually there is a king in a kingdom, and Jesus isn't here yet to take the throne and execute judgment. Nor does it appear that the devil has been cast into the lake of fire which happens before the judgment in Rev 20.

Joshua 21
43 And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Colossians 1
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

James 4:7
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You are a stubborn one. This is utter foolishness. In no way, shape or form can a nation that includes many people who reject Christ be considered holy. You're not even thinking here. To include Christ rejecters in His "holy nation" is utterly ridiculous and shows a complete lack of discernment.

Let me explain. The term "holy" means "set apart" and in the Bible, "holy" indicates those whom God set apart for his purpose. His purpose may be salvation of the individual, and it that case, the New Testament refers to the one whom God is saving as a "saint". which comes from the Latin sanctus holy.

In addition, the Old Testament speaks about the people who came out of Egypt as "holy ones" and "a holy people". These people are holy, not because God is granting the eternal life; not because they are eminent for piety and virtue; not because they are redeemed. No, they are holy because God consecrated Israel to suit his purpose.

Expand your thinking.

 

[CadyandZoe]

So, yes, you do consider Isaiah 65:18-19 to be about the new heavens and new earth. Why do you not also see verse 20 as being about the new heavens and new earth then?

Isaiah 65:18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I will create, for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight and its people a joy. 19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem and take delight in my people; the sound of weeping and of crying will be heard in it no more. 20 “Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reacha]">[a] a hundred will be considered accursed.

Notice that verses 18 and 19 are talking about Jerusalem and how "the sound of weeping and of crying will be heard in IT no more". Then in verse 20 it says "Never again will there be in IT an infant who lives but a few days...". Never again...in IT. Never again...in what? Jerusalem. Which you already acknowledge is related to the new heavens and new earth. So, it's clear that verse 20 is still talking about the new heavens and new earth. Why would you deny that?

I do see it as the NHNE. I don't see it as a description of eternity.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Paul said in Romans 9:6 "For not all who ARE descended from Israel ARE Israel". He was clearly speaking of two Israels that existed at that time. He was speaking in present tense. You're acting as if he said "Not all who are descended from Israel will be Israel". You are clearly twisting the text to fit your doctrine.

There is no time element in that passage. You are assuming that the two Israels are contemporaneous, but that is not the most logical assumption here. Why? Because the promise remains unfulfilled.

 

[CadyandZoe]

What had they formerly not been citizens of? Israel. Why would the mention of them now being fellow citizens not relate directly to what Paul said they were formerly not citizens of? What rational reason do you have to not make the connection that he was saying that they formerly were not citizens of Israel but now are fellow citizens of Israel? You have none.

I am taking Paul literally when he says they were excluded from the commonwealth of Israel. In order to be included in the commonwealth of Israel, one would need to get circumcised in the flesh and convert to Judaism. The Ephesians became fellow-citizens in a new polis (city). Refer to Hebrews 11:10.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Your correct, the unbelieving Jews will be incinerated, however those believing Jews will be called "Church"

Maybe, I don't know that for sure.
Bear in mind, during that time, the church will have been resurrected, they will have put on incorruptibility, and they will rule with Christ as immortals on the earth. Jesus says, for instance, that Peter, John and the rest of the 12 apostles will rule over the twelve tribes of Israel. Isaiah refers to these mortals as "survivors."

These tribes will exist as mortals during that time. I presume that other immortal disciples of Jesus will rule over other survivors in other areas of the world. But I have no reason to know, one way or the other if these morals are believers.

I know this though, the Bible says that the mortal, Jewish, survivors will be living in Jerusalem as righteous people who fear God. They undoubtedly meet Jesus Christ and accept him as Lord and Savior at his second coming, so perhaps you are right.

In my humble opinion.

 

[CadyandZoe]

What gives is your complete lack of spiritual discernment. Jew and Gentile believers are now together as one and you're trying to keep them separate. Terrible. No "holy nation" would include unbelievers, as you think is the case. That's complete nonsense.

Okay, that will teach me to never pose rhetorical questions in order to get someone else to think.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You specifically referenced Jeremiah 31:34, which is part of what was quoted in Hebrews 8:8-13 in relation to the new covenant, which you acknowledge is already in effect. So, what do you want from me here? You were acting as if Jeremiah 31:34 supported your doctrine, but it doesn't. That was my point.

I understood you. But if I didn't say it yet, (I'm loosing track of what I already said) then my response is that Jeremiah 31 predicts MORE than the New Covenant.

Here is the text.
31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

The section in bold was fulfilled on the cross and was in effect during Paul's day. The rest of the paragraph remains to be fulfilled. Many people miss the fact that Jeremiah is speaking about two different and distinct covenants in the text above. The covenant in verse 31 is a different covenant than the one in verse 33. The covenant specified in verse 31 was fulfilled on the cross and applies to all those who not only believe God, but believe Jesus Christ also. The covenant mentioned in verse 33 and defined in 33-34 is yet to be fulfilled.

No, it is not. Do you somehow miss how Paul refers to Gentiles within Romans 9-11 as well? You said all that only to come to a clearly false conclusion like this?

Yes, Paul mentions both Jews and Gentiles in Romans 9-11. The point is, Paul employs the terms "Jew and Gentile" (singular) to speak about individuals. He employs the term "Jews" and "Gentiles" (plural) to draw a distinction between his people and people from other lands; and finally, he employs the term "Israel" and "Gentiles" to draw a comparison between nations. Israel is never used figuratively about individuals. It always refers to the nation of Israel.

What?!!! You must be reading a different Bible than I am. You think the following is about nations?

Yes, Paul takes an aside once in awhile to make a point. But this aside is not evidence against my view that Paul's focus is on a promise God made to physical, ethnic Israel. And whenever he makes a point about ethnic Israel, he employs the term "Israel" except in 9:6 where the second use of the term refers to the progenitor of the nation.

And you think the following passage is talking about nations as well? Romans 11:17

Yes, in that context the terms Israel and Gentiles refer to nations, not individuals. Specifically, the branches do NOT represent individuals. They actually represent generations. Generations of Israel were kept partially hardened so that generations of Gentiles might come in.

Both passage are about salvation. Since when is salvation a national thing instead of an individual thing?

In terms of God's promise to a nation, salvation is a national thing . . . for them. If Paul didn't think so, then he had no reason to write chapters 9 through 11.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The diaspora was Israelites, comprised of both Jews and Gentiles, living abroad.

I'm laughing out loud now. Dude, people living abroad are natives, not aliens. Thanks for the levity. I need it right now.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Paul differs.

Galatians 4:28
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

The Galatian Church was comprised of both Jews and Gentiles.

I think, if you check the book of Genesis, Isaac was born before Jacob. Just sayin'

 

[CadyandZoe]

What gives; is that the House of Israel, still scattered among the nations ARE the true Israel, the ones that Jesus came to save. Matthew 15:24

What if WE are Israelites?
Careful study of Scripture shows that the Lord is a God of order and in His plan for the redemption of His creation, He chose the Israelite peoples. At this stage of history, only He knows exactly who they are. Amos 9:9 The Lord made unconditional promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that their descendants would be “great nations, as many as the sands of the sea, to be His witnesses and be a light to the nations.” Isaiah 43:10

Only the House of Judah [the Jews] are known at present, the other 10 tribes are lost to general knowledge, as God planned it. All twelve tribes will experience the great awakening as foretold by the prophets. Their blindness will pass away in the spiritual light that will come upon them regarding their identity and their responsibilities as the chosen people of God. Ezekiel 37:14, Romans 9:24-26, 1 Peter 2:9-10

Suppose you are an Israelite? What of it? If I am saved, what difference will it make?

The Scriptures speak of far more than the salvation of the individual. Those who accept the free gift of salvation also have the responsibility of spreading the Gospel [good news] of the coming Kingdom of God. This is being done now and will be done on a greater scale by His people when they go back into the Promised Land. Ezekiel 39:27, Revelation 7:1-14


The Bible presents us with a great volume of information, regarding the origins and history of the various races of mankind, the division of peoples into Israelite {Christian] and Gentile [non Christian] nations. The detailed prophesies of what will happen, then His people’s work for the period leading up to the Return of Jesus and His Millennium Kingdom. Isaiah 49:8

The truth about the Lord’s plan for all who qualify to be Israelite’s is a thread which runs through the whole Bible, every type, promise, Covenant, and act of God, points to the final fulfilment of His planned establishment of a people, all faithful Christian believers who will live in His Land, as He originally intended. Isaiah 62:1-5, Amos 9:13-15 His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10 and the Light to the nations, Isaiah 49:8

Isaiah 51:1-2 Listen to Me, all you who follow after the right, all who seek the Lord: consider the Rock from which you were hewn, the quarry from which you came. Consider Abraham, your father and Sarah who gave you birth, when I called him, he was but one. I blessed him and made him many.
Romans 4:23-24 The words “counted to Abraham as righteousness” apply not only to Abraham, but also to us: our faith, too, is to be counted: our faith in Jesus, raised to life for our justification.


When we go through Scripture and see the many prophecies about the judgement of the nations and the blessings promised to God’s holy people, who are now every faithful Christian believer: scattered among every race nation and language, we see that most are for the “last days”, that is: the short period leading up to the end of this age and before the commencement of the Millennial Kingdom of Jesus. That is for us, upon whom, as Paul says: the end of the age has come.

It is evident that God wants us to be aware of coming events, He sent prophet after prophet, telling in great detail how His plans will unfold. The signs of our times, confirm that their fulfilment is imminent.

The Lord, in His mercy, has given us warning of imminent world changing and shocking happenings. We should be aware of His plans – be ready to rejoice and praise Him for the redemption and restoration of all His people into their heritage of the holy Land.
Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Zechariah 8:7, Romans 9:24-26, +

Keraz,
I know you must have put a lot of work in that post. Thanks.

 

[covenantee]

I think, if you check the book of Genesis, Isaac was born before Jacob. Just sayin'

I know, that the Galatian brethren were the children of promise.

Or was Paul lying?

 

[covenantee]

I'm laughing out loud now. Dude, people living abroad are natives, not aliens. Thanks for the levity. I need it right now.

Keep laughing.
"Definition: a dispersion (Israelites in Gentile countries)"
"From diaspeiro; dispersion, i.e. (specially and concretely) the (converted) Israelite resident in Gentile countries -- (which are) scattered (abroad)."

 

[CadyandZoe]

I know, that the Galatian brethren were the children of promise.

Or was Paul lying?

Anyone whom God is saving is a child of promise. But there is also a nation of promise, which God will save sometime in our future.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Keep laughing.
"Definition: a dispersion (Israelites in Gentile countries)"
"From diaspeiro; dispersion, i.e. (specially and concretely) the (converted) Israelite resident in Gentile countries -- (which are) scattered (abroad)."

Of course. That's what I said.

 

[Rich R]

Should the verse instead read "literally discerned"?

Whatever it should or should not say, does not change the problem of building an entire doctrine on one verse. Al verses need to be considered. Plus it wouldn't change the fact that all bets are off as to the message when we decide to spiritualize the scriptures instead of taking them for what they plainly say.