22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Rich R]

Here is a pretty good explanation from "Got Questions.org"

"Typology is a special kind of symbolism. (A symbol is something that represents something else.) We can define a type as a “prophetic symbol” because all types are representations of something yet future. More specifically, a type in Scripture is a person or thing in the Old Testament that foreshadows a person or thing in the New Testament."

This form of hermeneutics is eisogesis, i.e. reading information into a text, rather than seeking to know what the author meant to say, which is why typology is not valid.

Do I understand you to say that there are no "types" of Jesus in the OT? According to Jesus, the whole thing is about him.

John 5:39,

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
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[Truth7t7]

God promised a physical kingdom to Israel. One with a temple, a priest, a king, etc. That is not the church. As Paul said many times, the church was a secret that only God knew until He told him about it. Nothing in the OT is talking about the church.

God told Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, et. al., to "lift up your eyes" and see the land. It was real land. Revelation and all the other OT prophets always talked about a real land based kingdom with it's HQ in Jerusalem. There will be grape vines, animals, jobs, a king, etc.. It'll be a real place on a real earth. That kingdom has nothing whatsoever to do with the church was a secret until God told it to Paul.

I think it is a real problem when we mix up to whom God spoke as well as when He spoke it. There are different times and different peoples in the scriptures. He said one thing to Israel and later, via Paul, He told quite different thing to the church. They dare not be mixed up if we want to avoid confusion.

Lets remove all the guess work, please explain who this Israel is or will be?

 

[CadyandZoe]

The mystery was that the Jews and Gentiles would become one body and joint heirs.

Eph 3:3-6,

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

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I used to think that too but I have since learned that the text in bold is the actual mystery in view.

Both the sufferings and glory of Christ were well known in the OT.

Yes, but Jewish people didn't see or understand that the triumphal king would also be the suffering servant; they believed that these were two distinct individuals.

James finds a passage of scripture to support his contention that Gentiles would be saved. Refer to Acts of the Apostles 15:15-18.

Comments?

 

[Rich R]

The main thrust of Roman's 11 is the "Remnant" Jew that will be saved by grace and "Added" to the church on earth, those whom God "foreknew"

There is no pre-trib rapture found in scripture as you suggest

Rich the scripture clearly teaches "Only" the remnant elect will be saved by grace and added to the church on earth, the rest are blinded, God has given National Ethnic Israel a spirit of slumber, read it again and again

Romans 11:1-8KJV
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

Look at all the OT quotes in Romans 9-11. Now keep in mind that the Christian church was a secret that God kept to Himself until He revealed it to Paul. That means that all those OT quotes in Romans are not talking about the church. They're talking about something else, which I covered in my last post.

It's important to keep times and peoples straight, to whom God spoke and when He spoke it, if we want to avoid confusion.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The main thrust of Roman's 11 is the "Remnant" Jew that will be saved by grace and "Added" to the church on earth, those whom God "foreknew"

There is no pre-trib rapture found in scripture as you suggest

Rich the scripture clearly teaches "Only" the remnant elect will be saved by grace and added to the church on earth, the rest are blinded, God has given National Ethnic Israel a spirit of slumber, read it again and again

Romans 11:1-8KJV
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

Romans 11:1-8 is talking about remnant Jews. Yes. But Romans 11:11 begins a new topic concerning ethic Israel. And yes, right now some in Israel are asleep. But Paul anticipates a time in our future when God will keep his promise to Israel.

 

[Truth7t7]

Look at all the OT quotes in Romans 9-11. Now keep in mind that the Christian church was a secret that God kept to Himself until He revealed it to Paul. That means that all those OT quotes in Romans are not talking about the church. They're talking about something else, which I covered in my last post.

It's important to keep times and peoples straight, to whom God spoke and when He spoke it, if we want to avoid confusion.

Please look at the New Testament quote below, the Kingdom was taken from Israel, read it again and again

Israel has no future promise of a kingdom on earth as you suggest, you teach "Zionism" in (Dual Covenant Theology)

When Israel rejected Jesus Christ the chief corner stone, the kingdom was given to the "Church" the Holy Nation, bringing forth its fruit

Matthew 21:42-44KJV
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

The "Church" A Holy Nation!

1 Peter 2:8-9KJV
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

 

[CadyandZoe]

Applying your knowledge of typology, who is "thee" in Genesis 3:15?

I never apply topology. The "thee" is Satan, not because of typology, but because "thee" is a pronoun referencing Satan.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Do I understand you to say that there are no "types" of Jesus in the OT? According to Jesus, the whole thing is about him.

John 5:39,

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
​

Yep. There are no types of Jesus in the OT. John is not talking about typology. He is saying that one can learn about eternal life through ordinary exegesis.

 

[Truth7t7]

Romans 11:1-8 is talking about remnant Jews. Yes. But Romans 11:11 begins a new topic concerning ethic Israel. And yes, right now some in Israel are asleep. But Paul anticipates a time in our future when God will keep his promise to Israel.

You have been clearly shown that only the remnant Jew will be saved, the rest are given the spirit of slumber and are blinded

All Israel will be saved when the last soul is added to the Church on earth, prior to the second coming (The End)

 

[Rich R]

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I used to think that too but I have since learned that the text in bold is the actual mystery in view.

Yes, but Jewish people didn't see or understand that the triumphal king would also be the suffering servant; they believed that these were two distinct individuals.

James finds a passage of scripture to support his contention that Gentiles would be saved. Refer to Acts of the Apostles 15:15-18.

Comments?

Are you saying that the Gentiles would be fellow heirs and part of the same body with the Jews is not part of the mystery? Why do you exclude those but include, "and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel?"

 

[covenantee]

I never apply topology. The "thee" is Satan, not because of typology, but because "thee" is a pronoun referencing Satan.

So why did you bring up typology if it is irrelevant?

How can "thee" be referencing Satan, when the word "Satan" appears nowhere in the verse, nor in the entire chapter?

 

[Rich R]

Lets remove all the guess work, please explain who this Israel is or will be?

Sounds like a baited question, but I'll bite.

The descendants of the one's God led our of Egypt. The people who Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekial, etc addressed.

Isa 1:1,

The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, [and] Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
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Jer 2:2,

Go and cry in the ears of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; I remember thee, the kindness of thy youth, the love of thine espousals, when thou wentest after me in the wilderness, in a land [that was] not sown.
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Ezek 2:3,

And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, [even] unto this very day.
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Neither Isaiah, Jeremiah, nor Ezekiel talked about the Christians church since the only one who did know about the church at that time was God, and He kept it to Himself until much later than these guys all wrote.

 

[Rich R]

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I used to think that too but I have since learned that the text in bold is the actual mystery in view.

Yes, but Jewish people didn't see or understand that the triumphal king would also be the suffering servant; they believed that these were two distinct individuals.

James finds a passage of scripture to support his contention that Gentiles would be saved. Refer to Acts of the Apostles 15:15-18.

Comments?

Well, since the mystery was secret at the time James referred to, it can't be talking about the Christian church. However, while the church was a secret, it was no secret that the Gentiles would one day flock to Jerusalem. That's all in the future though.

Rev 21:24,

And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
​

That's talking about the new heavens and new earth (Rev 21:1), not the present time of the church of the body of Christ. You can find the same truth throughout the OT. What you can't find in the OT is the mystery. As per Peter, the OT prophets looked for something about the time between the suffering and glory, but they couldn't find it. God's dealing with Gentiles in the OT and Revelation is not at all the same way He deals with them now, in this age of grace.

 

[Rich R]

Please look at the New Testament quote below, the Kingdom was taken from Israel, read it again and again

Israel has no future promise of a kingdom on earth as you suggest, you teach "Zionism" in (Dual Covenant Theology)

When Israel rejected Jesus Christ the chief corner stone, the kingdom was given to the "Church" the Holy Nation, bringing forth its fruit

Matthew 21:42-44KJV
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

The "Church" A Holy Nation!

1 Peter 2:8-9KJV
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Sorry to keep hammering the same point, but nobody knew about the mystery, this present age of grace, until God revealed it to Paul. Since Paul came some time after Jesus spoke these words, they can in no way refer to the Christian church. You have to look elsewhere for the answer as to whom God will give the kingdom. While Gentiles are often referred to as the "nations," the church is never called that.

The church is not the kingdom God promised Israel. The kingdom God promised Israel is always spoken of as a real, physical land with a real, physical king reigning on a real throne. We simply don't see that yet and we won't see it until Jesus comes back and defeats the devil at Armageddon.

 

[Rich R]

Yep. There are no types of Jesus in the OT. John is not talking about typology. He is saying that one can learn about eternal life through ordinary exegesis.

Technically, the word "type" is not in the scriptures, so you are absolutely right in saying there are not "types" of Jesus in the OT.

However what we can say, is that the OT is all about Jesus, at least if we are to believe Jesus' words, which I'm sure you do.

Here's what Jesus said,

"...they (the scriptures) are they which testify of me.

But you want to say, "...one can learn about eternal life through ordinary exegesis."

I'm not trying to be difficult, but I just don't see the similarity between the two statements. John seems pretty straight forward, but I don't see how that simple statement morphed into what you say.

 

[Rich R]

Please look at the New Testament quote below, the Kingdom was taken from Israel, read it again and again

Israel has no future promise of a kingdom on earth as you suggest, you teach "Zionism" in (Dual Covenant Theology)

When Israel rejected Jesus Christ the chief corner stone, the kingdom was given to the "Church" the Holy Nation, bringing forth its fruit

Matthew 21:42-44KJV
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

The "Church" A Holy Nation!

1 Peter 2:8-9KJV
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

We must consider the whole scope of scripture and avoid building a doctrine a a few isolated verses.

1 Pet 1:1,

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
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1 Pet 2:11-12,

11 Dearly beloved, I beseech [you] as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by [your] good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.​

Peter was talking to born again Jews. He used language and images with which they would be especially familiar. There are places in the OT where God called Israel, a chosen people, a peculiar people and that they'd be a nation of priests. But, since the mystery was hidden in the OT, they can't be talking about the church.

Paul, who received the mystery, never calls born again people priests.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You have been clearly shown that only the remnant Jew will be saved, the rest are given the spirit of slumber and are blinded

All Israel will be saved when the last soul is added to the Church on earth, prior to the second coming (The End)

Negative. Paul asks "Did Israel stubble so as to fall?" The answer is no.

Paul is talking about ethic Israel. "Did Israel stubble so as to fall?" The answer is no.

 

[CadyandZoe]

So why did you bring up typology if it is irrelevant?

How can "thee" be referencing Satan, when the word "Satan" appears nowhere in the verse, nor in the entire chapter?

I didn't bring it up, you did.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Are you saying that the Gentiles would be fellow heirs and part of the same body with the Jews is not part of the mystery? Why do you exclude those but include, "and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel?"

Paul argues, from the text of Genesis, that God not only justified Abraham in view of his faith, but would justify those "in Abraham" by virtue of the fact that they also share the faith of our Father Abraham. By this we learn that God intended to save Gentiles by faith from the earliest days of Genesis. Refer to Galatians 3.

That is one the one hand. On the other hand, the OT doesn't include an explicit passage, detailing the basis on which he will grant the inheritance of salvation. Genesis gives us the means by which we are saved, i.e. justification by faith, but the underlying foundation of his mercy i.e. the death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of the messiah remained a secret. Gentile salvation is implied in Genesis 12, but salvation by grace through faith in the blood of Jesus Christ remained a secret until Jesus came and obeyed the father unto death.

In Romans 16:25 Paul makes this explicit. The gospel of Jesus Christ was hidden. He also refers to the gospel as "the mystery of Christ" in his epistle to the Colossians.

 

[CadyandZoe]

So why did you bring up typology if it is irrelevant?

How can "thee" be referencing Satan, when the word "Satan" appears nowhere in the verse, nor in the entire chapter?

I'm rejecting the idea that the Serpent is a "type" of Satan. I maintain that the Serpent is Satan himself because of Revelation 12:9