22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[CadyandZoe]

God's promise is to "all Israel". (Romans 9:6-8; Romans 11:26)

God's promise is not to "of Israel". (Romans 9:6-8)

You can call it whatever you want, but Paul is NOT talking about any group other than the natural born descendants of Jacob.

 

[covenantee]

You can call it whatever you want, but Paul is NOT talking about any group other than the natural born descendants of Jacob.

He's talking about Israelites. "Children of the promise" includes both Jews and Gentiles. (Galatians 4:28)

 

[WPM]

I intended to insert something about a particular doctrine. There are no trigger words in my statement.

No. Totally edifying and non offensive. Right?

 

[Keraz]

There WILL be a thousand year time of peace and righteousness on earth:

Amos 9:13-15 The time is surely coming, says the Lord, when the one who plows shall overtake the one who reaps, and the treader of grapes, the one who sows the seed; the mountains shall drip sweet wine, all the hills shall flow with it. I will restore the fortunes of My Israelite people and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine, and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit. I will plant them upon their Land and they shall never again be plucked up out of the Land I have given them.

That scripture promises restoration for a devastated land and a scattered people and it does so in a beautiful description of overflowing fertility in field and vineyard along with an unqualified pledge of “never again” for His faithful people, from every tribe, race nation and language, Revelation 5:9-10, Isaiah 66:18b-21, to be dispossessed.

Bible prophecy refers to a divinely established Utopia (Greek- good place) in which, God puts an end to this world of injustice and unrighteousness on earth and replaces it with a world of justice and righteousness on earth.

This end times Kingdom is the covenantal kingdom, brought to its ultimate perfection and ideal consummation, here on earth. Hebrews 8:8-12 It will last for 1000 years, as Revelation 20 clearly informs us.

Daniel 7:27 The Kingly power, sovereignty and greatness of all the Kingdoms under heaven will be given to the Holy people of the Most High. Their Kingly power will last for ever and every realm will serve and obey them.


So, how will the God of justice and righteousness treat the Gentiles in establishing this utopian Kingdom on earth?

Micah 4:1-2 In days to come, the Lords House will tower above the hills. The nations will stream toward it, saying; Let us go to the House of Jacob’s God, that He may teach us His ways, for instruction comes from Zion. Isaiah 2:2-4

Zechariah 8:20 Nations and dwellers in many cities will come to Jerusalem to entreat the favour of the Lord. Zechariah 14:16-21

Those warlike and idol worshipping peoples will be converted to godly worship, under a God of justice and peace. They will not become Israelites, but all will live together under God. This will be the situation after Jesus Returns, during His Millennium rule.

Psalms 37:29 The righteous shall possess the Land and will live there forever.

 

[Rich R]

Negative. Paul argues in the book of Galatians that salvation is based on a promise God made to Abraham. We are not saved based on a promise made to Israel. And while it can be said that the promise made to Israel is fulfilled in Christ, we can not say that Gentiles have replaced Israel.

God is not only going to keep his promise to Abraham, he is also going to keep his promise to Israel.

Let me be specific. God intends to restore his holy name by bringing the Hebrew people back to the land; remove their hearts of stone and give them a heart of flesh; clean them up and take away idolatry; pour out his spirit on them; and restore their fortunes, i.e. good children, good crops, good wives, etc.

This promise only makes sense in the context of the Hebrew experience.

It's refreshing to see that there are Christians around who know the difference between the promises made to them and the promises mad to Israel. They're mixed up too often and thereby muddy the scriptural waters.

 

[Rich R]

You are mistaken. The "holy nation" and "royal priesthood" includes Jew and Gentile believers. John wrote about this, too.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

John was speaking in the present tense here and was surely not only talking about Jewish believers being made "a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father". We know he was talking about Jew and Gentile believers there because he was addressing believers in seven churches in the ancient Roman province of Asia.

Revelation is the fulfillment of all the promises God made to Israel. Gentiles are tangentially involved, but it's a stretch to call them "priests." Israel had a priesthood that was a big part of the OT, but no mention of a priesthood among the Gentiles. But one thing is sure, Revelation has nothing to do with the Christian church. Their future is described in Paul's letters and it is quite a bit different than that of Israel and the Gentiles.

I know about the seven "churches" (which should properly be translated as "assemblies"), but if you read the messages to them you will see many connections with the OT. Many things are said to them are radically different than the epistles of Paul which are written to the Christian church.

 

[Rich R]

That is not what Paul was saying. This reveals your own lack of spiritual discernment. And what is this "special understanding" stuff that you're talking about? If that's what you want to call it when the Holy Spirit gives us insight into what scripture is saying, then so be it. But, there's nothing wrong with it when the Holy Spirit helps us to understand scripture. You seem to think it's just all spelled out for us and straightforward. That is not the case.

1 or 2:1-2,

1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.​

If you read this like you would a newspaper, i.e., read what's written without looking for hidden meanings, I think you would see that Paul told them he couldn't go beyond the crucifixion of Jesus.

1 Cor 2:6-7,

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:​

"Howbeit" sets this verse in contrast. Although Paul could only preach the basics (not that there is anything wrong with basics) to the Corinthians, there were people who were more "perfect" to whom he could tell more, namely the wisdom of God's mystery.

Chapter 3 gives the reason for this. Basically, the Corinthians were carnal and constantly infighting among themselves.

Of course I do. Why do you ask? Paul spelled it out in Ephesians 3:4-6. Does this somehow mean that the entire Bible is all spelled out for us? If that was God's intention, then why is there so much symbolism in the book of Revelation?

What you call symbolism would have been perfectly understood by the ancient Jews. They understood the idioms. We can also, but it takes a bit of effort.
In any case, an idiom is understood by those in the culture that uses that idiom. English is full of them and although they are not true to fact, we all agree on what they mean. An idiom does not give anyone the right to make up something. They all mean one thing and those in the culture that created the idiom should understand what the one meaning is. Revelation is no different.

We're going by the impression you give by what you say. Maybe you need to learn to communicate more clearly if the things you say don't illustrate what you actually believe.

Well, there are those who don't agree with what I write, but with few possible, maybe exceptions, I think I'm pretty clear on what I say. I think the miscommunication is because of the glasses worn by those who read it. Those glasses are colored a certain way and I guess it's hard to be objective when reading through a filter biased against the message to begin with. It can be done, but few are able to read objectively.

 

[jeffweeder]

Revelation is the fulfillment of all the promises God made to Israel. Gentiles are tangentially involved, but it's a stretch to call them "priests."

Rev 5
8 When He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they *sang a new song, saying,

“Worthy are You to take the scroll and to break its seals; for You were slaughtered, and You purchased people for God with Your blood from every tribe, language, people, and nation.

10 You have made them into a kingdom and priests to our God, and they will reign upon the earth.”

 

[Rich R]

This is utter nonsense. You couldn't possibly be more wrong. The book of Revelation is all about Jesus Christ and His church. Just like most of the rest of the New Testament.

Nothing in Revelation about the Christian church? You have to be kidding me. Look at this verse, for example.

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Who are those "who keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus"? Those who are in the church. And there's much in Revelation about this war between Satan and his armies against Jesus and His church.

What are you talking about? Of course they did. You keep getting deeper and deeper into complete nonsense here. I don't think I will be able to take you seriously at all after reading this post.

What are you talking about?

I see you are so biased against anything I say that you spent no more that a few seconds considering what I said. I guess it's much easier to stick with tradition than to do honest scholarly research. I've been where you are. I was there for many years. But when I was presented with the ideas I'm holding forth here I took much time to verify it what I was told was true or not (read about the Bereans in Acts). When I did that I saw that Revelation is indeed nothing more than the final fulfillment of the promises God made to Israel. God's plan for the Christian church is radically different than that of Israel. I can say without reservation that the Bible story makes way more sense when people and times are kept straight. Mix 'em together and there is nothing but confusion.

It is a huge assumption that those "who hold fast to the testimony about Jesus" are the Christians. That's building an entire doctrine of one verse, and that with no justification whatsoever other than preconceived biases. We read the word "church" and immediately glam onto the Christian "church" (better translated "assembly",) never giving one thought that maybe it's talking about some other assembly altogether. Well it actually is talking about some other assembly than the Christian church. Read the letters closely and you will see tons of references to the OT Jewish nation while seeing virtually no references to anything Paul said to the Christians. It's quite obvious to those with eyes to see and ears to hear.

 

[WPM]

1 or 2:1-2,

1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.​

If you read this like you would a newspaper, i.e., read what's written without looking for hidden meanings, I think you would see that Paul told them he couldn't go beyond the crucifixion of Jesus.

1 Cor 2:6-7,

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:​

"Howbeit" sets this verse in contrast. Although Paul could only preach the basics (not that there is anything wrong with basics) to the Corinthians, there were people who were more "perfect" to whom he could tell more, namely the wisdom of God's mystery.

Chapter 3 gives the reason for this. Basically, the Corinthians were carnal and constantly infighting among themselves.


What you call symbolism would have been perfectly understood by the ancient Jews. They understood the idioms. We can also, but it takes a bit of effort.
In any case, an idiom is understood by those in the culture that uses that idiom. English is full of them and although they are not true to fact, we all agree on what they mean. An idiom does not give anyone the right to make up something. They all mean one thing and those in the culture that created the idiom should understand what the one meaning is. Revelation is no different.


Well, there are those who don't agree with what I write, but with few possible, maybe exceptions, I think I'm pretty clear on what I say. I think the miscommunication is because of the glasses worn by those who read it. Those glasses are colored a certain way and I guess it's hard to be objective when reading through a filter biased against the message to begin with. It can be done, but few are able to read objectively.

Yes. Everyone wears glasses apart from you. And you are the one that is advancing extra-biblical theories. Where are your 2 comings? It is time to cough up or shut up. All you present is what you have been taught.

 

[Rich R]

Rev 5
8 When He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they *sang a new song, saying,

“Worthy are You to take the scroll and to break its seals; for You were slaughtered, and You purchased people for God with Your blood from every tribe, language, people, and nation.

10 You have made them into a kingdom and priests to our God, and they will reign upon the earth.”

Very true. But how do those verses say Revelation is about the Christian church? It talks about the Passover lamb, bowls of incense, and priests. All of those are OT Jewish things. Christians aren't the only ones called saints in the scriptures.

 

[Rich R]

Yes. Everyone wears glasses apart from you. And you are the one that is advancing extra-biblical theories. Where are your 2 comings? It is time to cough up or shut up. All you present is what you have been taught.

Seriously? Where are the two comings?

I'll get you started with a verse in Peter;

1Pet 1:11,

Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
​

Apparently the OT prophets understood there would be two comings, one as a lamb led to the slaughter and another as King of Kings. I said I'd get you started, but that's all I'm going to say about it. I mean, I'd be glad to say more about it, but with you I'm afraid it'd fall on deaf ears. You can figure it out for yourself if you take the time. Or just stick with what you already know. At least that way you'll be standing with the majority. Of course I don't think a majority is the standard for truth, but I think many are comfortable standing with the majority regardless of it's agreement with truth. I get it.

 

[Rich R]

Yes. Everyone wears glasses apart from you. And you are the one that is advancing extra-biblical theories. Where are your 2 comings? It is time to cough up or shut up. All you present is what you have been taught.

Would you care to be more specific. What did I say that is extra-biblical? I think I just quoted a couple of verses and commented on the obvious.

Did Paul say he couldn't speak about the mystery to some folks, but he could to others, namely those who were perfect (better look that word up in a good concordance. It doesn't mean what we in the modern West think it means)?

Did Paul say that the Corinthians were carnal or not, and if so, was that the reason he couldn't go beyond the cross?

I think I also said that every culture has idioms and that those in that culture understand the meaning of that idiom. Do you take exception with that? If so, why?

Let's try and get specific as to where that is extra-biblical.

Where are the two comings?

1Pet 1:11,

Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.​

Apparently the OT prophets understood there would be two comings, one as a lamb led to the slaughter and another as King of Kings. Am I making that up also, or is that what says? If not, what does it say?

You want me to put up of shut up? Well that's always a good start when you want to convince somebody of something. Come on guy, how about some substance.

 

[WPM]

Seriously? Where are the two comings?

I'll get you started with a verse in Peter;

1Pet 1:11,

Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
​

Apparently the OT prophets understood there would be two comings, one as a lamb led to the slaughter and another as King of Kings. I said I'd get you started, but that's all I'm going to say about it. I mean, I'd be glad to say more about it, but with you I'm afraid it'd fall on deaf ears. You can figure it out for yourself if you take the time. Or just stick with what you already know. At least that way you'll be standing with the majority. Of course I don't think a majority is the standard for truth, but I think many are comfortable standing with the majority regardless of it's agreement with truth. I get it.

I am talking about your 2 future comings.

 

[WPM]

Would you care to be more specific. What did I say that is extra-biblical? I think I just quoted a couple of verses and commented on the obvious.

Did Paul say he couldn't speak about the mystery to some folks, but he could to others, namely those who were perfect (better look that word up in a good concordance. It doesn't mean what we in the modern West think it means)?

Did Paul say that the Corinthians were carnal or not, and if so, was that the reason he couldn't go beyond the cross?

I think I also said that every culture has idioms and that those in that culture understand the meaning of that idiom. Do you take exception with that? If so, why?

Let's try and get specific as to where that is extra-biblical.

Where are the two comings?

1Pet 1:11,

Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.​

Apparently the OT prophets understood there would be two comings, one as a lamb led to the slaughter and another as King of Kings. Am I making that up also, or is that what says? If not, what does it say?

You want me to put up of shut up? Well that's always a good start when you want to convince somebody of something. Come on guy, how about some substance.

Every single post I have read from you is in error. I notice you do not directly address rebuttals. That is because they expose your error.

 

[jeffweeder]

Very true. But how do those verses say Revelation is about the Christian church?
It talks about the Passover lamb, bowls of incense, and priests. All of those are OT Jewish things. Christians aren't the only ones called saints in the scriptures.

Regarding all those Jewish things , they are singing a new song yes?
It has to do with the blood of the Jewish Messiah that has purchased people of all nationalities , Jew and Gentile.
Christ Jesus hath made them all priests.

9 And they *sang a new song, saying,

“Worthy are You to take the scroll and to break its seals; for You were slaughtered, and You purchased people for God with Your blood from every tribe, language, people, and nation.

10 You have made them into a kingdom and priests to our God, and they will reign upon the earth.”

1. 
   
   
   • Romans 5:17
     For if by the offense of the one, death reigned through the one, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
     -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Death reign in Jew and Gentile
   • Romans 5:21
     so that, as sin reigned in death, so also grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Amen to that.

 

[Keraz]

Regarding all those Jewish things , they are singing a new song yes?
It has to do with the blood of the Jewish Messiah that has purchased people of all nationalities , Jew and Gentile.
Christ Jesus hath made them all priests.

9 And they *sang a new song, saying,

“Worthy are You to take the scroll and to break its seals; for You were slaughtered, and You purchased people for God with Your blood from every tribe, language, people, and nation.

10 You have made them into a kingdom and priests to our God, and they will reign upon the earth.”

Quite right, these things will be done by the Israelites of God: when all of the Lords faithful people are living in all of the holy Land.

People who think the Jewish people will be restored and forgiven, simply fail to see the many Prophesies which tell of their virtual demise.
They believe, mistakenly; that the only Israel is the one visible to us now, but the Jewish State of Israel is a Satanic construct, a mixed racial group of people who formed a nation on communistic principals and are mostly atheists, or false religion worshippers. God Promises to deal to them.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, the wicked will run to the rocks and mountains and be crushed to death...then claw their way to the surface like in some post-apocalyptic zombie fest and bow down and worship Jesus. Got it.

Say what now? What you're saying has nothing to do with anything I said, so what was your point here?

Wrong, bro - they will sleep in the dust of the Earth for 1,000 years while the planet is dark, silent, empty, destroyed, devoid of all life, until the Resurrection of the Damned which happens 1,000 years after the Resurrection of the Just, accorcdng to Revelation 20:3-9 KJV.

Hey "bro", that is not taught anywhere in scripture. Passages like Daniel 12:1-2 and John 5:28-29 indicate that the wicked will be judged right after being resurrected. And verses like John 6:40 and John 12:48 indicate that the righteous will be resurrected and the wicked will be judged on the same "last day". How do you reconcile that with your view?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, in the way John means it. The question is, what does John mean to say? As I pointed out earlier, John indicated what would happen to the current heavens in chapter 6 of Revelation.

I have no idea of what you're talking about. Please explain. If you have death, mourning, crying and pain still occurring after the new heavens and new earth are ushered in, then you are blatantly contradicting Revelation 21:4. And that seems like what you are doing.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If you have no reason to expand your thinking, then why are you here?

You misunderstood. You have made it quite clear that you are not capable of expanding my thinking with the nonsense that you keep posting. Sorry if that's harsh, but your response here made it clear to me that you're not getting the point. I have learned things from others here, but I have not learned one single thing from you except that I think you may be wrong about everything.

Also, to answer your question further, I am here to teach others the truth about end times doctrine. Which requires me to refute false doctrine like yours.