Who can give an answer?

[amigo de christo]

Yes indeed, that is good! But the word was made flesh, and through His resurrection, by faith we are freely given His Holy Spirit, aka the Mind of Christ.

Therefore, to have God's literal words, and not allow the mind of Christ within us to interpret His words is NO GOOD! Isaiah 55:8-9, Zechariah 4:6, John 16:13.
If we DO NOT apply His concept and/or methodology, we are no better off than the scholarly, denominational Bible Colleges, aka "the wisdom of men". 1 Corinthians 2:5.

OH yes we must surely be born again in Christ . Yes indeed .

 

[Bob Estey]

When a person doesn't exist its impossible for them to think!

Me?

 

[face2face]

Since you used my post to respond to "phoneman", and then said:
"Moses and Elijah were raised for this special work of strengthening Christ and to this day they await the resurrection", I suggest that you HEAR the words of Jesus, and not your own speculation of understanding.
This thread is getting more and more wild by the minute. Let Jesus be the "guide", and not the doctrines of men by "church-ianity".
I repost again:
As for Enoch, Elijah or Moses, Jesus said the truth about their whereabouts:
John.3[13] And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
BTW, in the KJV-OT scriptures, the word "paradise" is not found.

Moses and Elijah, and whoever else was of faith in Messiah to come, of the OT., NEVER were able or allowed to receive the permanency of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The only place that any of them were ever of anything, was just a name written in God's "book of Remembrance" in Malachi 3:16. None of them (though dead) received "the Promise" until Pentecost.
All of such are shown in Revelation 6:9-11 as being figuratively "under the altar", being given "white robes", aka the Gift of the Holy Spirit.

By the way, the word "altar" is in reference to Malachi 3:16. Altars were erected by men, for places, people and/or events that were to be remembered.

You post is a bit of mess to be honest.
I agree no man has ascended to Heaven accept the Lord Jesus Christ.
I would also agree all men and woman of faith are but dust awaiting the resurrection.
F2F

 

[face2face]

Me?

No, Jesus did not pre-exist in reference to your original point.

 

[Earburner]

You post is a bit of mess to be honest.
I agree no man has ascended to Heaven accept the Lord Jesus Christ.
I would also agree all men and woman of faith are but dust awaiting the resurrection.
F2F

Of course my post sounds to be "sort of a mess" to you, that's because the mind of Christ within me is speaking to your "natural man/mind", which is full to the brim of preconceived thoughts of pharisaical "church-ianty", aka "the wisdom of men". We must always apply John 16:13 to our reading of the scriptures.
1 Corinthians 2:5.

Revelation 6:9-11 is Malachi 3:16 fulfilled. All of OT. Israel, who were of faith in the Messiah to come, had died and did not see that day. God did not forget them, and therefore on Pentecost, He gave to them the Gift of the Holy Spirit also at that time.
The Gift of the Holy Spirit is the vehicle and the seal of Eternal Life. 1 John 5:12-13, Romans 8:8-9.

 

[face2face]

Revelation 6:9-11 is Malachi 3:16 fulfilled.

Lets deal with this first. What do you believe the 5th seal speaks to? Be specific!

 

[Earburner]

Lets deal with this first. What do you believe the 5th seal speaks to? Be specific!

Joel 3:14 BEGAN on the Day of Pentecost, as fulfilled in Acts 2:17-19.
Joel 2[27] And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people [chosen through faith] shall never be ashamed.
[28] And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
[29] And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
> Pentecost (the Age of God's Grace), is still currently going on UNTIL the Day of The Lord, as shown in Joel 3:14.
God "remembered" all the OT saints of faith, and figuratively moved their names into the Book of Life, who is Jesus. So, in all actuality, they are now "asleep in Jesus".
EDIT: Although the religious inclination of one being baptized for the dead of Israel (Malachi 3:16), was a practice in the days of Paul, today on this side of Pentecost, it is not recommended that it should be done at all, because God did not forget them, and did secure them, as shown in Revelation 6:9-11.
1 Corinthians 15[29] Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

 

[Bob Estey]

No, Jesus did not pre-exist in reference to your original point.

But I believe Jesus to be God in flesh (Matthew 1:23).

 

[Earburner]

Lets deal with this first. What do you believe the 5th seal speaks to? Be specific!

Cont'd
You might want to examine the following as being very relative. It's an updated copy of one of the many of my comments on this topic, from the thread: "The Day of the Lord, wrong timing applied"
Zechariah 14:8 has been fulfilled and still is being fulfilled to this day:
"And it shall be in that day [Pentecost], that living waters** shall go out FROM Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be."
** John.7[38] He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Referencing Malachi 3:16, the book of Remembrance was set up before God. All the names of OT Israel, who died in faith, waiting for The Promised one to come, WERE written in that book. But those names are not there anymore.
They WERE translated over into the Lamb's book of Life. You can find them in Revelation 6:9-11. They are of "the former sea", being OT Israel of faith.
You can see them in Revelation 6:9-11.

But now, though those OT saints are dead, under the altar, the Lord gave to them the Holy Spirit also, and they are now asleep in Jesus, still waiting for Jesus third and final coming also.

As for "the hinder sea", well that's simple. It's ALL people who have lived since Pentecost, who have faith in Jesus, the Promised One who came.
And while we are still mortal, through faith in Jesus, the Holy Spirit (the KoG, who is Jesus) comes to us (unobservably), to dwell within us for all eternity. Luke 17:20, 2 Corinthians 4:7.
They all who have died in faith (the former sea), and we also who are alive in faith (the hinder sea), are still waiting for the Lord's Third coming, in the Glory of His immortality

 

[face2face]

But I believe Jesus to be God in flesh (Matthew 1:23).

Congratulations Bob....you are not alone in your error - millions upon millions like you. It's a jagged little pill that one!

 

[face2face]

Cont'd
You might want to examine the following as being very relative. It's an updated copy of one of the many of my comments on this topic, from the thread: "The Day of the Lord, wrong timing applied"
Zechariah 14:8 has been fulfilled and still is being fulfilled to this day:

You make reference to a single event which is yet to take place.

The earthquake will open up new springs throughout the Land as Isaiah 43:20, Including Mt Zion where a tremendous river of water shall gush forth, which, flowing east, will heal the waters of the Dead Sea. Ezekiel gives a graphic account of this in Ezekiel 47:1-12), while other prophets also refer to it.... Joel 3:18 Psalms 46:4 Isaiah 30:25 Isaiah 33:21. Isaiah 41:18 Isaiah 43:19-20

In considering Elijah's work we have only looked at this in a minuet way, so minuet it's freighting the prophetical detail of these times in the Word. Most Christians explain these events away as being failed (by Israel or God's Word coming to nothing) or already fulfilled...and like you, they are way off the mark. You can spiritualise these prophecies to your own hurt, but somethings are literal events and this is certainly one of them.

i.e the Dead sea is still dead!

F2F

 

[Bob Estey]

Congratulations Bob....you are not alone in your error - millions upon millions like you. It's a jagged little pill that one!

Error? Read Matthew 1:23.

 

[face2face]

Error? Read Matthew 1:23.

Yes, God with us, and how?
2 Corinthians 5:19
In Christ!

 

[robert derrick]

I ask again....Do you know why Elijah & Moses were chosen of all the OT faithful to encourage Jesus before his crucifixion? Mark 9

This question and its answer is precisely why this below thread is essential for the Christian to learn and follow.

I will send my messenger

Give it a go...I'll be very surprised if a correct answer can be gleaned - one thing is for sure the JW cannot answer it!

I like off the wall questions, because they usually produce on the table answers.

Scripture prophesied Elijah would come again on earth before Christ was glorified, and John Baptist was a figure of that prophecy only.

Prophecy of Scripture is always literally fulfilled when stated literally.

Christ wanted to talk with Moses face to face again on earth.

 

[face2face]

I like off the wall questions, because they usually produce on the table answers.

Scripture prophesied Elijah would come again on earth before Christ was glorified, and John Baptist was a figure of that prophecy only.

Prophecy of Scripture is always literally fulfilled when stated literally.

Christ wanted to talk with Moses face to face again on earth.

 

[robert derrick]

Enoch the question relates to the type of encouragement Christ received in the mount and the work he is about to do - i.e. offer himself on the cross. Here's a tip.

What does Moses, Elijah and Jesus have in common?

And no Elijah & Moses are not the two witnesses of Revelation 11, so lets not get side tracked there.

You will recall Jesus was in great distress praying by the side of the road and he said this to his disciples:

Mark 8:27 Then Jesus and his disciples went to the villages of Caesarea Philippi. On the way he asked his disciples••, “Who do people say that I am?”

It was clear the cross was looming heavily on him and he could see his ministry was not turning hearts toward God (as he hoped) and his need for encouragement was at its greatest this far, so God gave him a future vision of the Kingdom on Earth and also two men to encourage him.

So the question relates to what these two men could offer Christ on that mount by way of encouragement to go on to Calvary?

Keep in mind ONLY these two men could provide this type of encouragement!

Big clue!

Abel could have done so before anyone else on earth:

Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

 

[robert derrick]

Ziggy - you have opened the door as well...still need to connect the dots.
What did Moses, Elijah & Jesus have in common!

They were the only three men on the mount talking about the truth. Then Peter butted in and spoiled it.

 

[robert derrick]

If you are thinking of quoting a Scripture please make sure you know its context before forcing uninspired notions upon it Revelation 22:18

Also make sure you are quoting it as written, and not how you would like it to be written.

So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

 

[face2face]

They were the only three men on the mount talking about the truth. Then Peter butted in and spoiled it.

The record states they were talking about the Lords exodus...theirs ultimately being dependent upon the success of his.

 

[robert derrick]

The record states they were talking about the Lords exodus...theirs ultimately being dependent upon the success of his.

I agree that makes good sense. But you only asked what they had in common, which context meant while on the mount talking, and it had to be the truth they were speaking, because Jesus is the truth, and Moses and Elijah were no longer seeing thru a glass darkly. God in heaven was not one of them, because He was not a man speaking.

I especially like the connection between exhorting the man Jesus by both Elisha and Moses from paradise, who all were patiently waiting for Him to come down from the cross and take them all to the altar of heaven, to there await the resurrection of their dead bodies.

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.