22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Truth7t7]

The NHNE does have a time system.

It's called "For ever and Ever"

Revelation 11:15KJV
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[Timtofly]

It's called "For ever and Ever"

Revelation 11:15KJV
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

I thought you all claimed that started in the first century?

Jesus was/is the Word that brought all of creation into existence. The for ever and ever "started" before creation did. That is definitely not some future reality. Is there a pre-mil in these forums who think for ever and ever has not started? Even Amil have it wrong, starting it in the first century, no?

Are you a futurist and for ever and ever has not started yet? No one can put a starting time on for ever and ever.

Unless you are one of those humans who deny a physical creation, Revelation 21 has not happened yet. And denying reality does not remove one from the reality they are denying. Revelation 20 has not happened yet either.

Even you will have to endure your fabricated fairy tale you keep trying to convince yourself is about to happen.

 

[Truth7t7]

If I had to pick an end time date I would go, word by word, with the scientist, Isaac Newton...

"And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half. " - Daniel 12:7

From a folio cataloged as Yahuda MS 7.3g, f. 13v:

"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060." - Isaac Newton

As Charlemagne was crowned king on December 25, 800 by Pope Leo the III so the day of Christ's coming will be on Christmas Day, 2060. If the rapture of the saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) occurs seven years before the time of Christ’s coming the date of the rapture 12.25 2053. However… Isaac Newton notes

"It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." - Isaac Newton

I believe, then, the 2060 prophecy as closest, noting room for error as in Newton's quote. But... My goodness... 2060 is a lot closer than it was when Isaac Newton uttered these words 300 years ago!

Sir Issac Newton (The Occultist)

 

[Keraz]

That is like saying Revelation 21:1 clearly refers to the new earth, but then Revelation 21:2-7 describes the Millennium period. What nonsense. So, based on how you interpret Isaiah 65:19-20, you don't think people will mourn the loss of loved ones during this supposed future Millennium period?

And no one will care when someone dies, apparently, since verse 19 says there will be no more weeping or crying at that point. Wait, no more weeping or crying? That reminds me of Revelation 21:4 which relates to the new heavens and new earth.

Why is there confusion about the Prophesies of Isaiah" He told us they were not in the order of fulfilment. Isaiah 28:13.
It should be easy to ascertain that Isaiah 65:17-18 refers to the New Jerusalem, as in Revelation 21 and Isaiah 65:19-25 describes the Millennium period, as proved by how there will be procreation and death then.

Of course, if one rejects the idea of the Millennium, then you have to conflate those verses, despite in doing that; it makes a Biblical anomaly.

 

[Truth7t7]

Why is there confusion about the Prophesies of Isaiah" He told us they were not in the order of fulfilment. Isaiah 28:13.
It should be easy to ascertain that Isaiah 65:17-18 refers to the New Jerusalem, as in Revelation 21 and Isaiah 65:19-25 describes the Millennium period, as proved by how there will be procreation and death then.

Of course, if one rejects the idea of the Millennium, then you have to conflate those verses, despite in doing that; it makes a Biblical anomaly.

Isaiah 65:17-18 clearly states the New Creation in the New Heaven and Earth, all the verses following describes it

A child dying at 100 years is "Figurative Speech" and not literal as you claim. As clearly seen below, no more weeping or crying over the 100 year old dead children "Lol"!

"Eternal New Jerusalem"!

Isaiah 65:19KJV
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

Search long and hard for your cherished Millennial Kingdom on this earth, it's found no place in scripture

Jesus returns in fire and final judgement, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

 

[WPM]

Why is there confusion about the Prophesies of Isaiah" He told us they were not in the order of fulfilment. Isaiah 28:13.
It should be easy to ascertain that Isaiah 65:17-18 refers to the New Jerusalem, as in Revelation 21 and Isaiah 65:19-25 describes the Millennium period, as proved by how there will be procreation and death then.

Of course, if one rejects the idea of the Millennium, then you have to conflate those verses, despite in doing that; it makes a Biblical anomaly.

If there is death there will be "weeping" and "crying." Right? Or are these myriads of millennial phonies so stiff-necked that they lose the ability to cry?

This is pretty water-tight. Crying is terminated. Tears are over. This correlates with Revelation 21:1-4. The wording of this passage also totally negates the possibility of the reintroduction of death, disease and funerals to the new earth as these would obviously reintroduce “the voice of weeping” and “the voice of crying.” From our reading we know that cannot be. Up until here this description closely correlates with the depiction of the new heavens and new earth in Revelation 21-22.

 

[Keraz]

If there is death there will be "weeping" and "crying." Right? Or are these myriads of millennial phonies so stiff-necked that they lose the ability to cry?

This is pretty water-tight. Crying is terminated. Tears are over. This correlates with Revelation 21:1-4. The wording of this passage also totally negates the possibility of the reintroduction of death, disease and funerals to the new earth as these would obviously reintroduce “the voice of weeping” and “the voice of crying.” From our reading we know that cannot be. Up until here this description closely correlates with the depiction of the new heavens and new earth in Revelation 21-22.

The death of a person who has lived a long and fruitful life is no cause foe weeping. Many funerals are now called celebrations.

It is in Revelation 21:4, that we see how God will wipe away every tear..... Isaiah 65:19b does not relate to the Eternal state, as then there will be no more Death.

 

[Truth7t7]

The death of a person who has lived a long and fruitful life is no cause foe weeping. Many funerals are now called celebrations.

It is in Revelation 21:4, that we see how God will wipe away every tear..... Isaiah 65:19b does not relate to the Eternal state, as then there will be no more Death.

"How Convenient"

You have a child dying as "Literal", and weeping and crying as "Figurative", even creating all death's in you imaginary Kingdom as celebrations, Big Smiles!

That's right, your interpretation is backwards, as a child dying is "Figurative Speech" and no more weeping or crying is "Literal"

Amazing how far one will go, in their obsessive desire to create a Kingdom on this earth, that doesn't exist in scripture

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Where does Jesus say that *all* people in the present age will be either judged or glorified at the 2nd Coming? Nowhere!

It is implied, Randy. Jesus made it clear that only believers will be found worthy to obtain the age to come. And we know that all believers will be changed and have immortal bodies when Jesus returns at the end of the age. So, where does that leave unbelievers? They are not worthy to obtain the age to come, so you can't have them on earth in the age to come. So, where else then? In the "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt 25:41). Matthew 25:31-46 does talk about all people in the present age being judged at His second coming and it has believers inheriting "everlasting life" in the kingdom prepared for us from the foundation of the world while unbelievers will be cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels", which is obviously the same as the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).

And for that reason I have to conclude that Jesus was only speaking about those who will be judged at the 2nd Coming. Those who are not judged then, and who are not prepared to be glorified, must continue on as mortals in the Millennial era. They won't just disappear.

Where does scripture teach this, though? Nowhere! Several passages teach that all people, saved and lost, will be judged at the same time. Such as Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50, Matthew 25:31-46 and John 5:28-29. The idea that some will be judged one time and the rest another time is just not taught in scripture anywhere.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The death of a person who has lived a long and fruitful life is no cause foe weeping. Many funerals are now called celebrations.

That's ridiculous. Even if your loved one "has lived a long and fruitful life" you still mourn their death and miss them when they're gone.

It is in Revelation 21:4, that we see how God will wipe away every tear..... Isaiah 65:19b does not relate to the Eternal state, as then there will be no more Death.

But, it says there will be no more weeping or crying in Isaiah 65:19 which lines up with Revelation 21:4. You should interpret Isaiah 65:20 in a way that lines up with Revelation 21:4 as well since Isaiah 65:19-20 both clearly relate to the new heavens and new earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Actually the first century church was understood as a cult of Judaism, and cult refers to a religious preference.

Understood by who? I'm talking about Christians saying that other Christians are part of a cult. It's nonsense for a Christian to accuse another Christian of being in a cult just because they disagree with their end times doctrine.

Cult: a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
"the cult of St. Olaf"

• a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.

Unbelievers have no religion to speak of. Perhaps at one point humans were religious, even non-believers, because of paganism.

Humanism is the current system of thought that attempts to divorce humans from a religion or spiritual connotation.

At what point does Amil stop being a cult?

At the beginning because Amils are Christians and Christians are not part of a cult. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

How is "cult" more offensive than "nonsense"?

Because the word cult implies that you're not a Christian. Nonsense just means you're a Christian who has end times beliefs that are nonsensical. But, you're still a Christian.

 

[Randy Kluth]

It is implied, Randy. Jesus made it clear that only believers will be found worthy to obtain the age to come. And we know that all believers will be changed and have immortal bodies when Jesus returns at the end of the age. So, where does that leave unbelievers? They are not worthy to obtain the age to come, so you can't have them on earth in the age to come. So, where else then? In the "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt 25:41). Matthew 25:31-46 does talk about all people in the present age being judged at His second coming and it has believers inheriting "everlasting life" in the kingdom prepared for us from the foundation of the world while unbelievers will be cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels", which is obviously the same as the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).

I've was taught in my early Christian life that the 2nd Coming was the end of everything. It was too late to repent for those who chose not to believe, and they would go to Hell. Those who had accepted the Lord would inherit the Kingdom of Heaven forever. I was raised in Amil theology.

If that has been your mindset, you would make perfect sense. If, on the other hand, the 2nd Coming is not the end-all of human existence, then perhaps unbelievers would get their 2nd chance at the Lord's Return. Israel may achieve grace when the Lord comes back to them, just as he left, when he pours out on them the spirit of grace and a spirit of repentance. It really depends on how you were raised to think about the last day of the age--the end of everything, or a new beginning?

Where does scripture teach this, though? Nowhere! Several passages teach that all people, saved and lost, will be judged at the same time. Such as Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50, Matthew 25:31-46 and John 5:28-29. The idea that some will be judged one time and the rest another time is just not taught in scripture anywhere.

Well, I just quoted Zech 12-13, where Israel receives undeserved favor. We read in Eze 36, where the same is true. We read that God will deliver Israel, never to be judged again--that has never happened. Paul in Rom 9-11 details how God has not given up on Israel--not just a remnant, but the whole nation of Israel.

 

[Truth7t7]

Appreci

I've was taught in my early Christian life that the 2nd Coming was the end of everything. It was too late to repent for those who chose not to believe, and they would go to Hell. Those who had accepted the Lord would inherit the Kingdom of Heaven forever. I was raised in Amil theology.

If that has been your mindset, you would make perfect sense. If, on the other hand, the 2nd Coming is not the end-all of human existence, then perhaps unbelievers would get their 2nd chance at the Lord's Return. Israel may achieve grace when the Lord comes back to them, just as he left, when he pours out on them the spirit of grace and a spirit of repentance. It really depends on how you were raised to think about the last day of the age--the end of everything, or a new beginning?



Well, I just quoted Zech 12-13, where Israel receives undeserved favor. We read in Eze 36, where the same is true. We read that God will deliver Israel, never to be judged again--that has never happened. Paul in Rom 9-11 details how God has not given up on Israel--not just a remnant, but the whole nation of Israel.

Appreciate your honesty Randy

Unfortunately the story doesn't end where everybody holds hands and skips off away into the glorious land of God's Kingdom

There won't be a Kingdom on this earth for 1,000 years at the return of Jesus Christ as you believe and teach, it's a man made fairy tale

Jesus returns in fire and final judgment (The End) that you have been shown "Several Times"

Randy you have chosen to disregard this biblical truth, in exchange for your make believe 1,000 year Kingdom on this earth, that doesn't exist in scripture

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[WPM]

The death of a person who has lived a long and fruitful life is no cause foe weeping. Many funerals are now called celebrations.

It is in Revelation 21:4, that we see how God will wipe away every tear..... Isaiah 65:19b does not relate to the Eternal state, as then there will be no more Death.

Exactly, that occurs after the millennium. You are avoiding the issue again.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It is implied, Randy. Jesus made it clear that only believers will be found worthy to obtain the age to come. And we know that all believers will be changed and have immortal bodies when Jesus returns at the end of the age. So, where does that leave unbelievers? They are not worthy to obtain the age to come, so you can't have them on earth in the age to come. So, where else then? In the "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt 25:41). Matthew 25:31-46 does talk about all people in the present age being judged at His second coming and it has believers inheriting "everlasting life" in the kingdom prepared for us from the foundation of the world while unbelievers will be cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels", which is obviously the same as the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).

Where does scripture teach this, though? Nowhere! Several passages teach that all people, saved and lost, will be judged at the same time. Such as Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50, Matthew 25:31-46 and John 5:28-29. The idea that some will be judged one time and the rest another time is just not taught in scripture anywhere.

Mortal survivors live during the Millennial period. The Millennial period is NOT the final age.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Appreci
Appreciate your honesty Randy
There won't be a Kingdom on this earth for 1,000 years at the return of Jesus Christ as you believe and teach, it's a man made fary tale

The account of Rev 20 indicates that mankind is not eradicated from the planet following universal judgment. "Universal Judgment" implies devastating judgments will take place in many localities throughout the earth. But the Scriptures say that the earth itself continues forever.

Mortal human beings will not be completely removed from the earth until the New Earth arrives at the end of the Millennium, and all unbelievers are thrown into the lake of fire. As often as I'm told I must not believe in a literal Millennium, the Scriptures themselves warn me not to accept that advice. I'm sticking with the word of God.

 

[WPM]

Mortal survivors live during the Millennial period. The Millennial period is NOT the final age.

Christ and the New Testament writers only recognize two overriding ages in their teaching – “this world/age” and “the world/age to come.” One is current, corrupt and temporal and the other is impending, perfect and eternal. One refers to mortal life on earth in the here-and-now, and the other refers to our eternal state. These terms are commonly used in the New Testament when contrasting the toil and trouble of our day with the glory and rest of the hereafter. These two common phrases are found in different places in the New Testament, along with several other similar expressions, referring to time and eternity. Basically, there is now and there is then – there is no in-between. The pivotal event that divides these two diverse ages is the glorious climactic return of Jesus Christ.

 

[WPM]

The account of Rev 20 indicates that mankind is not eradicated from the planet following universal judgment. "Universal Judgment" implies devastating judgments will take place in many localities throughout the earth. But the Scriptures say that the earth itself continues forever.

Mortal human beings will not be completely removed from the earth until the New Earth arrives at the end of the Millennium, and all unbelievers are thrown into the lake of fire. As often as I'm told I must not believe in a literal Millennium, the Scriptures themselves warn me not to accept that advice. I'm sticking with the word of God.

Premil is totally preoccupied with, and dependent upon, one chapter in the Bible – Revelation 20. It interprets the rest of Scripture in the light of its opinion of one lone highly-debated chapter located in the most figurative and obscure book in the Bible. All end-time Scripture is viewed through the lens of Revelation 20. This is not a very wise way to establish any truth or doctrine. Take this passage out of the equation and Premillennialism has nothing in the inspired pages to support their main tenets. Amils have a problem with, and very much disagree with this form of hermeneutics and exegesis of many Scriptures.

Premil hangs its doctrine on a very precarious frayed thread: that of Revelation 20 following Revelation 19 chronologically in time. To hold this, it has to dismiss the different recaps (or different camera views pertaining to the intra-Advent period) that exist throughout the book of Revelation, divorce it from repeated Scripture on this matter and also explain away the clear and explicit climactic detail that pertains to Revelation 19. Premil is dependent upon the dubious premise that Revelation 20 is chronological to Revelation 19. That is it! Disprove that and Premil falls apart.

 

[Timtofly]

It is implied, Randy. Jesus made it clear that only believers will be found worthy to obtain the age to come. And we know that all believers will be changed and have immortal bodies when Jesus returns at the end of the age. So, where does that leave unbelievers? They are not worthy to obtain the age to come, so you can't have them on earth in the age to come. So, where else then? In the "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt 25:41). Matthew 25:31-46 does talk about all people in the present age being judged at His second coming and it has believers inheriting "everlasting life" in the kingdom prepared for us from the foundation of the world while unbelievers will be cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels", which is obviously the same as the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).

Found also in Revelation 19. The LoF is introduced along with Death in the Seals. Now we see 3 places of judgment: sheol, Death, and the LOF. We know they are separated, because eventually sheol and Death are cast into the LOF. Do you have the specifics of who goes where?

Where does scripture teach this, though? Nowhere! Several passages teach that all people, saved and lost, will be judged at the same time. Such as Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50, Matthew 25:31-46 and John 5:28-29. The idea that some will be judged one time and the rest another time is just not taught in scripture anywhere.

Judged, yes. Resurrected, no. The goats are living people, who never physically die, until judgment is given. Tossed into the LOF as you say. They skipped both sheol and Death.

Matthew 25:31 is not a resurrection. Those sheep and goats are gathered out of the Nations on earth, and stand in judgment before Jesus sitting on a throne on the earth. The goats are not raptured to heaven and judged. Neither are the sheep. They have not even physically died yet. This is not a reward judgment. This is the pronouncement of their eternal destination. The sheep live on the earth. The goats are sentenced to the LOF. This is not even the GWT event. No sheep stand in front of the GWT, ever. Jesus did not check to see if the sheep were named in the Lamb's book of life. Jesus declared them chosen despite the fact, they had no faith in Jesus Christ. These are they who see Jesus as the crucified Lamb for the very first time. This is Jesus' version of the complete restoration of Israel of those alive at the time of the Second Coming. They are not dead Israel raised from sheol. They are the living who missed being part of the fullness of the Gentiles and the NT church harvest. They are not Gentiles. They are the lost sheep of Israel brought out of all Nations back into the land promised to them. But they will have to wait, until all the rest of humanity is harvested, the wheat and the tares. These were lost people not incinerated per your Amil doctrine at the Second Coming. The goats were incinerated, as they were tossed into the LOF.

Matthew 25 points out that there is a process, not just a blink of an eye moment.

John 5:28-29 is an ongoing process every time a redeemed soul enters Paradise.

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Does it say the same hour, are is hour from the Cross on? Did some not come out of their graves at the Cross? After the Cross some never tasted death, the grave, at all. They immediately entered Paradise. Stephen even saw Jesus standing to greet him. Do you think Jesus stands and greets all, or just martyrs at the time of their martyrdom?

Do you think Stephen saw Jesus "a thousand years" from that moment? Or was Stephen part of the hour phenomenon where Jesus is calling us to Paradise, avoiding death and the grave? The GWT is after Jesus hands back creation to God, and the dead stand before God. That is the last time the dead are called. But they are dead, unless they have a chance to remain in the Lamb's book of life and granted eternal life instead of the LOF.

 

[Timtofly]

Because the word cult implies that you're not a Christian. Nonsense just means you're a Christian who has end times beliefs that are nonsensical. But, you're still a Christian.

Implies to you. Non-Christians calling Christians, non Christians, is also nonsensical.

Obviously in most things, you don't care at all what other Christians think. Yet you change the definition of a word, just so you can be hyper offended?