OSAS Revamps it's Image: Not Sinners nor Saints

[robert derrick]

Scripture is the most famous book in the world for being explicit.

True. And the Word was God.

Look, you prefer idolatry of Jesus Christ. I get that. Like I said, at the same time you probably are mor justified in works of faith, than the OSAS crowd.

If you were to drop the idolatry teaching, you'd no doubt make a pretty good saint in Christ Jesus.

 

[Wrangler]

That is a common among you created christers

LOL. Sons are created, by definition.

It's such a basic conceptual problem of contradiction. Scripture says Jesus is a created being by identifying him as a son. Sons are created beings.

Look, you prefer idolatry of Jesus Christ.

The trinity is not in the Bible, not the word and not the concept. Keep that in mind when using the notion of idolatry of Jesus Christ.

 

[robert derrick]

LOL. Sons are created, by definition.

It's such a basic conceptual problem of contradiction. Scripture says Jesus is a created being by identifying him as a son. Sons are created beings.



The trinity is not in the Bible, not the word and not the concept. Keep that in mind when using the notion of idolatry of Jesus Christ.

As I said. You reject a single Scripture declaring the Word was God, and so you then go on to any number of Scriptures to try and infer you are justified in doing so.

As here, you are trying to string it along again, because you like the intellectual titillation of it. I no longer bother wasting my time with you arguing all those other Scriptures, even as I don't both arguing with OSAS over all the inferring of Scriptures they do, in order to justify rid of James 2:24.

I asked only about your rejection criteria and have answered it fairly: I would believe any Scripture saying the Word was not God, the Word is not God, Jesus Christ is not God, etc...

You in typical characterless fashion ignore it, because there is no Scripture saying it.

 

[mailmandan]

I'm not the one reshaping my image from that of the self-proclaimed sinners of modern Christianity, into that of not being sinners, and can't even sin anymore.

You people simply have no stableness of mind and integrity of what you try to teach from one time to another.

What I marvel at is watching it all unfold so plainly. Before this sight, I knew there were OSAS hypocrites in Christianity, but I just never knew how delusional in your doctrine you are, in order to justify yourselves in it.

I mean, I understand wanting tob e sinners saved by grace and justified by faith alone, but to plumb such depths of spiritual psychosis in order to do it, is pretty mindboggling.

I understand fully now how blown away John felt as seeing it all at once in the open:

And when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Your hatred for and obsession with OSAS reminds me of the hatred for and obsession with the Democrats have with Trumo. Hence, the "just plain nuts!"

 

[PinSeeker]

As I pointed out... you OSASers have also learned to corrupt much Scripture, just to reject James 2:24.

Nobody rejects James 2:24 (or any other part of Scripture for that matter). James says, "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." Right, so he's clearly saying that if you have faith but there are no works produced by it ~ if faith does not result in the person doing good works ~ then the person has no faith ~ it is a dead faith ~ and thus is not really saved. So you pointed out, in your ranting and raving M.O., wrongly.

You both have learned to write many many words, go to the Greek and Hebrew, and corrupt the teachings of others, in order to do so.

Debunking wrong-headedness is a good thing. Just a very few words this time. See above.

You call this ranting and raving...

Because that's exactly what it is. Stop it.

I no longer argue you...

Because there is no valid argument you can make without twisting what I say into something other than what it is. I think you're smart enough to see that, but are so caught up in your ranting and raving and misguided tirades that you just can't/won't.

...but only point out what you are doing in the process.

That's precisely the problem, Robert. You point out stuff that I'm not doing (or saying) at all. Quite astounding.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Your hatred for and obsession with OSAS reminds me of the hatred for and obsession with the Democrats have with Trumo. Hence, the "just plain nuts!"

Well, maybe that, but Robert has a wrong-headed idea of what "OSAS" really is in the first place.

Grace and peace to you, MMD.

 

[mailmandan]

Well, maybe that, but Robert has a wrong-headed idea of what "OSAS" really is in the first place.

Grace and peace to you, MMD.

His biased, rigid view of OSAS leaves him with a condescending attitude towards believers in the OSAS camp.

 

[Wrangler]

You reject a single Scripture declaring the Word was God

Not at all. I totally accept the word was God - figuratively and not referring to Jesus.

 

[Wrangler]

: I would believe any Scripture saying … Jesus Christ is not God, etc...

This shows your negative acceptance criteria. By using the word ‘not’ in what you would believe reveals you accept as true that which is absent from Scripture; namely, any verse which explicitly says ‘Jesus is God.’

This is not logical. The burden is on the one making the positive claim. The burden is not on the defendant to prove what he is not (not in Scripture), not guilty. You are using the absence of evidence to support your hypothesis. This violates the hypothesis testing of the scientific method.

Instead of believing what the Bible explicitly says, you are willing to believe what it does NOT say! This is the path to get as far away from God as possible, e.g., you believe Santa Claus is real but would believe the Bible if it said Santa Claus is NOT real, etc.

 

[robert derrick]

Nobody rejects James 2:24 (or any other part of Scripture for that matter). James says, "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." Right, so he's clearly saying that if you have faith but there are no works produced by it ~ if faith does not result in the person doing good works ~ then the person has no faith ~ it is a dead faith ~ and thus is not really saved. So you pointed out, in your ranting and raving M.O., wrongly.


Debunking wrong-headedness is a good thing. Just a very few words this time. See above.


Because that's exactly what it is. Stop it.


Because there is no valid argument you can make without twisting what I say into something other than what it is. I think you're smart enough to see that, but are so caught up in your ranting and raving and misguided tirades that you just can't/won't.


That's precisely the problem, Robert. You point out stuff that I'm not doing (or saying) at all. Quite astounding.

Grace and peace to you.

If you are saying no one is saved and justified by faith alone apart from works, then we agree.

And so your issue is with those who do.

 

[robert derrick]

This shows your negative acceptance criteria. By using the word ‘not’ in what you would believe reveals you accept as true that which is absent from Scripture; namely, any verse which explicitly says ‘Jesus is God.’

This is not logical. The burden is on the one making the positive claim. The burden is not on the defendant to prove what he is not (not in Scripture), not guilty. You are using the absence of evidence to support your hypothesis. This violates the hypothesis testing of the scientific method.

Instead of believing what the Bible explicitly says, you are willing to believe what it does NOT say! This is the path to get as far away from God as possible, e.g., you believe Santa Claus is real but would believe the Bible if it said Santa Claus is NOT real, etc.

Now, your changing your definition of criteria. You asked what in Scripture would rule out the possibility of Jesus being God, and I said any Scripture saying the Word was not God, or Jesus is not Lord and God.

And the burden of proof by positve claim is, the Word was God.

And so, I don't play the endless two-step with you reading all Scripture by unbelief in John 1:1, nor am I going to do so by your meaningless arguments over criteria. You see, the main difference between you and me, is that you live for intellectual debate. I don't, and neither does Jesus:

If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

 

[robert derrick]

His biased, rigid view of OSAS leaves him with a condescending attitude towards believers in the OSAS camp.

No, condescension is a form of patronage.

I reject it altogether and have nothing to do with it, other than to expose it for the lie that it is.

And it isn't personal, like you people childishly try to make it. I really don't care who you are what you're doing in life, but only about what you teach on this site.

 

[mailmandan]

No, condescension is a form of patronage.

I reject it altogether and have nothing to do with it, other than to expose it for the lie that it is.

And it isn't personal, like you people childishly try to make it. I really don't care who you are what you're doing in life, but only about what you teach on this site.

So replace condescension with condemnation? You have a condemning attitude towards believers in the OSAS camp. Now for the record and according to you, would you say that ALL believers in the OSAS camp will not be saved? In your opinion, they will ALL be condemned?

 

[Wrangler]

Now, your changing your definition of criteria.

No. I am not changing my definition of criteria! I was talking about rejection criteria and because of your completely illogical posts, I changed focus to acceptance criteria. Really, it is (x) compared to (1-x).

 

[Wrangler]

And the burden of proof by positve claim is, the Word was God.

Which is NOT Jesus. Words are WHAT's not WHO's.

 

[robert derrick]

So replace condescension with condemnation? You have a condemning attitude towards believers in the OSAS camp. Now for the record and according to you, would you say that ALL believers in the OSAS camp will not be saved? In your opinion, they will ALL be condemned?

Good question.

Only those who practice OSAS by continuing in works of the flesh, and have no regard for repenting, because they are saved anyway.

That is called presumptuous sinning in the face of the Lord:

Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

Not every OSAS believer is practicing it to the letter, but every OSAS teacher will be held accountable for it:

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

You people speak evil of being justified by works, and not all that believe it will actually do it as taught, but many will practice it and be defiled by it, which is what Paul is speaking of in I Cor 3, where ministry can be so bad as to work to destroy the believers, rather than help them:

According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

OSAS teaching defiles the minds of the simple into defiling themselves with sinning against God presumptively, even if those teachers themselves don't actually practice it.

Your teaching of salvation and justification by faith alone, without ever having anything to do with how we live pertaining to being eternally saved, is the very definition of license to sin, no matter how many kings horses and men you trot out to deny it.

It's garbage, and you may only push it doctrinally without actually living it, but you'll answer for everyone who hears you and does.

 

[mailmandan]

Good question.

Only those who practice OSAS by continuing in works of the flesh, and have no regard for repenting, because they are saved anyway.

That is called presumptuous sinning in the face of the Lord:

Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

Not every OSAS believer is practicing it to the letter, but every OSAS teacher will be held accountable for it:

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

You people speak evil of being justified by works, and not all that believe it will actually do it as taught, but many will practice it and be defiled by it, which is what Paul is speaking of in I Cor 3, where ministry can be so bad as to work to destroy the believers, rather than help them:

According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

OSAS teaching defiles the minds of the simple into defiling themselves with sinning against God presumptively, even if those teachers themselves don't actually practice it.

Your teaching of salvation and justification by faith alone, without ever having anything to do with how we live pertaining to being eternally saved, is the very definition of license to sin, no matter how many kings horses and men you trot out to deny it.

It's garbage, and you may only push it doctrinally without actually living it, but you'll answer for everyone who hears you and does.

A simple YES or NO to my questions in post #53 would have been sufficient. You have a very harsh and unfair view of OSAS. I certainly do not teach a license to sin and I can't think of one OSAS believer that I know who does either. You obviously view OSAS believers as false prophets and false teachers who will be condemned. The more I hear false teachers/works-salvationists and people who I believe may very well be mentally ill relentlessly attack OSAS on various Christian forum sites, the more I'm convinced it's the correct doctrine. I have noticed ALL false religions and cults that teach salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS, which has always been a major red flag for me! I'm yet to find just one Bible verse that unequivocally says a really "saved" person really "lost their salvation." Instead, I find OSAS/preservation of the saints.

Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

Matthew 10:26 - But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.

John 6:37 - All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty.

Romans 8:38 - For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

1 Peter 1:5 - who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Jude 1:1 - Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ.

If you insist on remaining on that roller coaster ride of fear and bondage to IN-security, be my quest, but count me out! I got off that roller coaster ride upon my conversion several years ago after leaving the Roman Catholic church and never once looked back. Good riddance!

 

[PinSeeker]

If you are saying no one is saved and justified by faith alone apart from works, then we agree.

That's pretty much what we "OSASers" have been saying all along, Robert. Salvation, though, is of the Lord, and not of the Lord and man. If this salvific work of justification and the giving of true, saving faith is done, then our good works are a natural consequence of God's work, and we do them because of God's work in us, not just initially but because of the ongoing, sustaining work being done in us by the Holy Spirit. Yes, we should agree. Maybe now you understand what "OSAS" really is and Who is really the author and finisher/perfecter of our faith (Hebrews 12:2). Yes, we do the good works, and they are a necessary part of our ultimate salvation. But it is the Spirit bearing fruit through us, and this is God working in us (Ephesians 2:10, Philippians 2:13) and bringing His good work to completion at the day of Christ, which Paul says with certainty will happen (Philippians 1:6).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[robert derrick]

A simple YES or NO to my questions in post #53 would have been sufficient. You have a very harsh and unfair view of OSAS. I certainly do not teach a license to sin and I can't think of one OSAS believer that I know who does either. You obviously view OSAS believers as false prophets and false teachers who will be condemned. The more I hear false teachers/works-salvationists and people who I believe may very well be mentally ill relentlessly attack OSAS on various Christian forum sites, the more I'm convinced it's the correct doctrine. I have noticed ALL false religions and cults that teach salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS, which has always been a major red flag for me! I'm yet to find just one Bible verse that unequivocally says a really "saved" person really "lost their salvation." Instead, I find OSAS/preservation of the saints.

Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

Matthew 10:26 - But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.

John 6:37 - All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty.

Romans 8:38 - For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

1 Peter 1:5 - who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Jude 1:1 - Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ.

If you insist on remaining on that roller coaster ride of fear and bondage to IN-security, be my quest, but count me out! I got off that roller coaster ride upon my conversion several years ago after leaving the Roman Catholic church and never once looked back. Good riddance!

Ok. Condemnation for hypocrites that have learned to be hypocrites by OSAS theology, which is:

Those who practice OSAS by continuing in works of the flesh, and have no intent of repenting, because they are taught they are saved anyway.

That is called presumptuous sinning in the face of the Lord:

Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

You'll answer for any Christians defiling themselves with works of the flesh, while trusting in your OSAS theology.

Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

 

[WalkInLight]

That is not the correct question.

The correct question would be to ask: Is God and the means of His salvation, of this world or not of this world?

No, but that is the error of your scientific approach--you have not factored in the timeless or eternal nature of God. In which case, all His acts in time, are only acts (creations) made to demonstrate His eternal truth on which time actually has no bearing.

For me the correct question we need to ask ourselves is "Have we met Jesus?"

I have heard people say this phrase so many times "If God speaks to me I will believe in Him, but not until then"

What they meant is God appearing in the sky saying "I am God"
I have met many believers who think if miracles happen in front of a non-christian that proves God exists and people will come to Jesus.

Sadly this is not true. Jesus's message is to our hearts and about love, hurt, guilt and sin.
Until a person is prepared to see themselves and their failure and reach out and ask Jesus for Help, there is no hope for them.

In a real sense when someone has done this they are walking in OSAS.
But many water down the words to a confession of faith, like an amulete that guarantees them access to the heavenlies no matter
how life leads them.

King David shows the dilemma of our walk in Gods way, and falling into sin, which is then repented of.
Each individuals walk is their walk, and their story is one among millions with its own dilemmas and realities.

Jesus in revelation emphasises this with a different letter to each church.
But each church was called to a different victory and praised for differing strengths and shown up for different
weaknesses.

What I know is if love has touched ones heart, talking about walking in sin is darkness.
It is like trying to justify not giving all ones life to Jesus is a promise unfulfilled. Jesus did the impossible yet some say
we can sell Him short and say His promise to lead us the path of truth and ease is a lie.

I have been told by ardent OSAS followers that to hold this walk of following is the life of heaven is satanic and evil.
So I know there is much spiritual blindness and confusion, but also if you have heard Jesus you will follow.

God bless you