22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[WPM]

Yes, we've covered this many times now. I do believe the New Covenant supersedes the Old Covenant of Law. But I do *not* believe God's promises to Abraham concerning Israel and the nations has been revoked. These are two distinct issues.

So we agree that Dispensationalism is wrong in their belief that Israel is on a separate track from the Church, eventually returning to OT rites. I agree with you on this.

But not all Premil is Dispensational. I do agree with Dispensationalists that Israel is still alive and well in God's economy. They have experienced an age-long setback, but it isn't over yet. The fat lady hasn't yet sung.

No. You go further than that in your Zionism/Judaizing. You teach that Christ-rejecting Christ-hating Jews are God's chosen people. That is totally ridiculous and completely anti-biblical.

I believe the Bible teaches that the Jewish People, even non-Christians, remain God's People in the sense that there is still the hope of their recovery.

You totally ignored my rebuttal because it shows how unscriptural your position is. I will repeat.

I've never heard anything more ridiculous and unscriptural in my life. This is exactly what Zionism produces. See what the Bible teaches rather than what you have been taught. Hebrews 4:9-10: "There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his."

If the non-Christian Jewish people were “the people of God” then they would be “in Christ” and be at “rest” in Him. But they are not. They reject Christ. They reject His atoning work on the cross for sin. They therefore reject our heavenly Father. They are children of the devil. They are of the synagogue of Satan.

Christ was preaching a sermon in John 8:32 saying, “ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

To which the religious Jews interjected, “We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?” (v 33).

Jesus replied, “I know that ye are Abraham's seed (obviously speaking naturally); but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father” (vv 37-38).

The Jews then boasted, “Abraham is our father” (v39).

Christ responds to this misguided boast of the religious Jews, saying, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father” (John 8:34-38).

These religious Jews had no revelation of their own innate sin. They were depending upon their own self-righteousness. Little did they know it, but man’s only deliverer from sin was standing in their midst. Every man since Adam is born with original sin and therefore stands completely guilty before a righteous God. In the first Adam (the first nature) all are sinners and therefore destined to lost eternity. Jews and Gentiles approach God on the same grounds being collectively blighted with the same disfigurement – sin. They consequently require the same cure (the only medicine for this affliction) – the blood of Jesus. All men are on a level playing field when it comes to birth. All are equally required to submit to the exact same requirements – faith in Christ and repentance towards God.

Whereupon Christ responded, “If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it” (vv 39-44).

Here Christ hits them with the sobering truth. He identifies their true father as the devil. This would have been explosive to these religiously proud Jewish leaders. He advanced “If ye were Abraham's children” speaking in a spiritual sense, and “If God were your Father” also speaking spiritually, “ye would love me.” Here the evidence of being a true child of Abraham is shown to be ‘loving Christ’. This is Christ’s litmus test of a true child of Abraham and what it is to be part of God’s chosen people.

Let us see what the Saviour said on this important matter. Jesus said in John 5:23b-24, “He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

Again, this couldn’t be clearer. Those Jews and Gentiles that don’t accept Christ don’t accept the Father. Christ-rejecting Jews and Gentiles are under condemnation and are therefore of their father the devil.

I John 2:22-23 solemnly asks, “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ (or Messiah)? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.”

Jews who accept Christ as Saviour and Lord are true children of Abraham, Gentiles who accept Christ as Saviour and Lord are true children of Abraham. Jews who reject Christ as Saviour and Lord are not true children of Abraham, Gentiles who reject Christ as Saviour and Lord are not true children of Abraham.

Jesus said in Luke 9:48, “whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me.”

The overwhelming amount of Jews for 2,000 years have rejected Christ, Christ will therefore reject them. Notwithstanding, there has always been a redeemed remnant that have accepted God's only provision for sin and uncleanness. Those that accepts Christ are accepted of the Father. Those that deny Him are denied by the Father.

Jesus said in John 15:23, “He that hateth me hateth my Father also.”

How can they be of God's if they reject God's only means of reconciliation between man and God? The unsaved Jew does not receive Christ; therefore the Father does not receive him. He is not God's, he is the devil's. God's favour and blessing is upon those who accept His Son. His judgment is upon those who reject Him.

John the Baptist said in John 3:36, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

If the Jew loves Christ He is one of God's chosen, if he doesn't he is under the wrath of God. Simple!!!

 

[WPM]

You're just substituting your points for my points, completely failing to disprove my claims. I'm not going to teach a course here on Israel's Hope, as given in the Prophets.

In effect, the Prophets confirmed the Abrahamic Covenant, which guaranteed Israel's permanent placement in Canaan, with a final deliverance from their enemies. As well, the promise reaches out to the nations to create other nations like Israel, called and chosen of God.

I've told you this repeatedly, which you ignore. Instead, you continue to pose your same old questions. You try to cover over my points with your own points. But the real issue here is: what do we do with the Abrahamic Covenant?

You are fixated with the old covenant and are desperate to take us back to it. That will NEVER happen! Christ fulfilled the Abrahamic Covenant. We are now part of that "in Him." The redeemed Church of God is the historic continuation of believing Israel. They are the children of Abraham by faith. We are the true children of Abraham, not them. We are true Israeli citizens. We are the circumcision. We are the spiritual Jews. I have ably showed you that and you have been unable to disprove that.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Simple! It is being fulfilled today with the NT Church.

Not so simple. You completely ignored the main point! I was arguing that the Abrahamic Covenant guaranteed an *eternal inheritance* for Israel and for the nations, which has not yet happened. For example, do you see the nation Israel secure in their land, free from all worries about their enemies? No.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You are fixated with the old covenant and are desperate to take us back to it.

Yes, I'm fixated with *God's word!*

That will NEVER happen! Christ fulfilled the Abrahamic Covenant. We are now part of that "in Him." The redeemed Church of God is the historic continuation of believing Israel. They are the children of Abraham by faith. We are the true children of Abraham, not them. We are true Israeli citizens. We are the circumcision. We are the spiritual Jews. I have ably showed you that and you have been unable to disprove that.

You have not only *not* ably shown me that the "true children of Abraham" are not Israel, but it is ludicrous, in my view, for you do try to do so. By definition, Israel is Israel--not an international body of believers.

While it may be understandable that Christians throughout the centuries gave up faith in there being a nation of Israel any longer, there is no such excuse today. Israel exists again.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No. You go further than that in your Zionism/Judaizing. You teach that Christ-rejecting Christ-hating Jews are God's chosen people. That is totally ridiculous and completely anti-biblical.

It is a biblical irony that you completely dismiss.

Isa 50.1 This is what the Lord says: “Where is your mother’s certificate of divorce with which I sent her away? Or to which of my creditors did I sell you? Because of your sins you were sold; because of your transgressions your mother was sent away.

Hos 2.1 Say of your brothers, ‘My people,’ and of your sisters, ‘My loved one.’
2 “Rebuke your mother, rebuke her,
for she is not my wife,
and I am not her husband.

Do you not see the irony here, the same irony that Paul dealt with when he addressed the problem of Israel's restoration? God said He would harshly judge the nation Israel and basically cut them off from being His people, in much the same way Israel was called upon, by the Law, to cut off idolaters from the people.

So God said He was in effect divorcing Israel, while at the very next instance declaring that He could never forget them, indicating they were still under oath and married. This irony is lost on you. It was a picture of grace.

Hos 2.14 “Therefore I am now going to allure her;
I will lead her into the wilderness
and speak tenderly to her.
15 There I will give her back her vineyards,
and will make the Valley of Achor a door of hope.
There she will respond as in the days of her youth,
as in the day she came up out of Egypt.

Isa 62.4 No longer will they call you Deserted, or name your land Desolate. But you will be called Hephzibah, and your land Beulah; for the Lord will take delight in you, and your land will be married.

 

[WPM]

Not so simple. You completely ignored the main point! I was arguing that the Abrahamic Covenant guaranteed an *eternal inheritance* for Israel and for the nations, which has not yet happened. For example, do you see the nation Israel secure in their land, free from all worries about their enemies? No.

The old covenant is gone forever. We are now in the new covenant period. The promises, apparatus and ceremonial system of the old arrangement is completely fulfilled in Christ. There are no physical or ethnic land promises in the NT - none! The temporal rest that Israel was promised under the old covenant has been replaced by the eternal rest that Jesus gives.

Hebrews 9:15 says, speaking of Christ and the new covenant, “he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.”

The whole focus here is Christ, as it in the rest of Hebrews and the rest of the New Testament. The physical land of Israel is nowhere promised as an inheritance for natural Israel or spiritual Israel the Church. Indeed: “he is the mediator of the new testament.”

Jesus never taught anything about land promises to national Israel; Paul never mentioned any. None of the New Testament writers did so. While the land was obviously significant during the Old Testament era, it is entirely insignificant in the New Testament. The New Testament reverses the narrow and provincial focus of the Old Testament and broadens it out with a new concern for all nations. The sole focus of the New Testament is Christ and the expanse of the Gospel from the little land of Israel to the whole world.

Jesus made it clear in the Beatitudes that his focus was on the whole earth, and not simply the land of Israel, saying: “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth” (Matthew 5:5). Paul confirms this in Romans 4.13, speaking about Abraham, the great father of the faithful, saying: “For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.”

The hope of Israel was/is Christ. Not real estate in the Middle East.

Hebrews 3:14-4:1 says, “For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.”

Let us pause for a moment and note what happened here to God’s people and see what God is saying in this passage. They “came out of Egypt” which is a picture of the world. But that is not where it was supposed to finish. They were to then enter into “his rest.” Of course, in the Old Testament the physical Promised Land was the goal. Canaan was always viewed as the Promised Land, the earthly place of rest of the people of God in the Old Testament; however, it was not viewed as the eternal rest.

When we consider the restoration promises God gave Israel by way of the Old Testament prophets, we must do so through the lens of the person and work of Christ.

Hebrews 4:1-11 tells us, “Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.”

The place of rest is “a promise” (Hebrews 4:1) and a provision of God for the people of God. That rest is not an abstract thing – it is Christ. The writer of Hebrews presents the Israelites failure to literally enter into their rest (the Promised Land), because of their disobedience and lack of faith, as a warning to New Testament professing believers against not entering their rest in Christ through faith. That land can only be entered by faith or “with faith” (Hebrews 4:2), thus proving we are looking at the great salvation that Christ offers. When a man enters into that place of rest (salvation in Christ) he ceases “from his own works” (Hebrews 4:10). One can never gain favor with God through “good works” – this is a repeated truth throughout Scripture.

The writer to the Hebrews here relates entering into rest under the New Covenant as entering into Christ in salvation. This is the inheritance for every saint of God (Jew or Gentile) in our day. He is everything. It is a spiritual condition that brings peace to the soul, not a troubled geographical location in the Middle East. It is simply described in this reading as “his rest” – Christ’s rest. Moreover, that rest comes through simple faith in the Saviour.

 

[Truth7t7]

On this matter (of the first resurrection), like the others, there is obviously just one and only "first resurrection." But you invent a second "first resurrection." Think about that! That is ridiculous. That doesn't make sense! It negates the whole meaning of "first." Talk about not taking Scripture literally. You completely obliterate the meaning of "first" and "last." You obliterate the meaning of "the beginning" and "the end." They are totally meaningless in Premil.

Revelation 1:5-6: “And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.”

Revelation 20:6 mirrors this. It describes the same first resurrection (that of Christ) and it shows the same result (God’s people ruling and reigning as priest kings in and through Christ).

Revelation 20:6: “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”

Good post!

Paul not a biggie, something to consider?

Paul there are (2) resurrection on the last day, the righteous are (The First Resurrection) to eternal life, (The Second Resurrection) is the wicked, this is the resurrection of the (Second Death)

There are (Two) resurrections on this (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life
2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[WPM]

It is a biblical irony that you completely dismiss.

Isa 50.1 This is what the Lord says: “Where is your mother’s certificate of divorce with which I sent her away? Or to which of my creditors did I sell you? Because of your sins you were sold; because of your transgressions your mother was sent away.

Hos 2.1 Say of your brothers, ‘My people,’ and of your sisters, ‘My loved one.’
2 “Rebuke your mother, rebuke her,
for she is not my wife,
and I am not her husband.

Do you not see the irony here, the same irony that Paul dealt with when he addressed the problem of Israel's restoration? God said He would harshly judge the nation Israel and basically cut them off from being His people, in much the same way Israel was called upon, by the Law, to cut off idolaters from the people.

So God said He was in effect divorcing Israel, while at the very next instance declaring that He could never forget them, indicating they were still under oath and married. This irony is lost on you. It was a picture of grace.

Hos 2.14 “Therefore I am now going to allure her;
I will lead her into the wilderness
and speak tenderly to her.
15 There I will give her back her vineyards,
and will make the Valley of Achor a door of hope.
There she will respond as in the days of her youth,
as in the day she came up out of Egypt.

Isa 62.4 No longer will they call you Deserted, or name your land Desolate. But you will be called Hephzibah, and your land Beulah; for the Lord will take delight in you, and your land will be married.

Congratulations once again inside stepping all the New Testament scriptures that forbid your theories. You then resort to forcing a meaning upon the Old Testament Scripture that suits your claims. You do not seem to realize that God redeems individuals, not ethnic groups. Salvation has always been by grace alone, by faith alone, in Christ alone.

The passages that you quote simply prove that there is a remnant within the nation of Israel that will embrace the Lord Jesus Christ – their Messiah. That is called remnant theology. While Zionists like you are fixated with all things biologically Jewish, they seem blind to the fact that the infant New Testament Church was indeed faithful Israel. Christ’s early followers consisted of the elect remnant of Israel. This was the enlightened congregation of Jewish believers from among wider national Israel. They were the Israeli community who believed that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah.

This company contained people like Mary and Joseph, John the Baptist and his parents Zechariah and Elizabeth, Simeon and Anna who were waiting faithfully in the temple for Jesus, and early disciples like Peter, James and John. Many Jews recognized Jesus as the Messiah and embraced Him during His earthly ministry. In fact, they came to Him in great multitudes. Both Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea, who were both believed to be members of the ruling body of the Jews – the Sanhedrin, trusted in Him. Faithful Israel also included that Hebrew of the Hebrews the apostle Paul. The fledgling early Church overwhelmingly consisted of true believing Israelites. This was the ongoing righteous remnant of Israel. Those Jews who rejected Jesus were apostate Israel. They preferred to remain in their sins and go to a lost eternity.

The 12 apostles were Jewish. The New Testament writers were Jewish. The 70 disciples that were sent out to evangelize Israel were likewise. The true Israel of the Old Testament became the nucleus of the new covenant congregation. That small faithful band of Israelis that existed after the death, burial and resurrection of Christ became the New Testament Church, and became later known as Christians (Acts 11:26). It was that faithful number who Jesus used to make disciples of all nations (Matthew 28:19).

The 120, who met on the Jewish festival of Pentecost, were of solid Israeli stock. When Peter preached on the day of Pentecost after the Holy Spirit had fell, his audience was devout Jews “out of every nation under heaven” who had gathered in Jerusalem for the feast of Pentecost. That is why he addressed them as “Ye men of Israel” (Acts 2:5). Personally, three thousand of them experience salvation. Not long after that, God saved five thousand Jews in Jerusalem (Acts 4:4). Following that, there was “multitudes both of men and women” who “were the more added to the Lord” in Acts 5:14. There was a mighty ingathering of Jews in the early New Testament Church.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Where does it say the DOTL is anything other than a climactic day that no wicked survives and which ushers in the NHNE?

Simple, take all those scriptures that you don't think are talking about a thousand year period and accept that they are talking about a thousand year period. And take all those scriptures that you think indicate a final climatic ending of the world and stop thinking that they do.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Maybe not to you, but it is to all Bible-believing truth-seekers.

I'm not falling for that PM. It is up to you demonstrate how those passages are relevant.

 

[WPM]

Yes, I'm fixated with *God's word!*



You have not only *not* ably shown me that the "true children of Abraham" are not Israel, but it is ludicrous, in my view, for you do try to do so. By definition, Israel is Israel--not an international body of believers.

While it may be understandable that Christians throughout the centuries gave up faith in there being a nation of Israel any longer, there is no such excuse today. Israel exists again.

You do not seem to be able to differentiate between the old covenant and the Old Testament written Scriptures. This explains why you are so confused on this matter.

Your avoidance is getting out of control. The objective observer can see that for themselves. That is all Premils can do. I addressed this in #2887. You ducked around it, as you do. I will repeat.

There has always been a true believing Israel (the Israel of Israel), that which is God's redeemed - His elect. We see this in Romans 9:6-13: “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

You disagree with the Word of God. For you, not only are Christ-rejecting Jews true Israel, you label them the "people of God," which is utter nonsense. That shows how ignorant you are of God's truth. That is why you

What this is saying is, those who are not saved have no right to consider themselves as true Israel. The apostle here identifies two Israels; one elect and believing, the other lost and unbelieving. One is true spiritual Israel (“the children of God”/“the children of the promise”), the other is unbelieving and merely “children of the flesh.” Basically: national theocratic Israel was a political entity in which a believing spiritual remnant – true Israel – abode. It is only those Jews who belong to the remnant that are true Israelis in God’s eyes.

The house of Israel persistently ignored the voice of God, often complaining and being ungrateful with God’s boundless provision (Exodus 15:24, 16:2, 17:3, Numbers 11:5-7, 14:2-3 and 16:41, Deuteronomy 1:27 Joshua 9:18, Psalm 106:25). They rejected God’s statutes (Leviticus 26:43, 1 Kings 11:11, 2 Kings 17:15, 34, Nehemiah 1:7, Jeremiah 44:10, 23, Ezekiel 5:7, 11:12, 20:21, 24), choosing rather to walk in the statutes of the heathen. God’s name was polluted and profaned among the heathen (2 Chronicles 36:14, Ezekiel 20:9, 14, 22, 23:30, 36:20-23 and 39:7). This wickedness was often found in her prophets, priests and kings, not just the people.

God’s holy prophets admonished Israel for her incessant sin, to no avail. These sins were a great offence to God and were the focus of His ongoing judgment. The consequences for this were immense and sobering at times. Israel came under heavy punishment for large swathes of the Old Testament. God stopped speaking at times. He hid His face from the visible camp of Israel. He removed His protection. He let Israel’s enemies invade and overcome her. The nation also spent long periods under foreign control. They were evicted from the land and scattered throughout the nations. They had their cities ransacked and their place of worship desecrated.

Israel’s propensity to go after false gods, worship idols, sacrifice their children to the fire and embrace devils, even when God was moving in their midst, is breathtaking. It is hard to view the special favor that rested upon natural Israel, including the blessing and truth they incessantly enjoyed, and then understand their habitual determination to do their own thing and follow Satan. It simply doesn’t make sense. It is only when we realize that ultimate favor with God only came through knowing Him personally and walking in obedience with Him. To this end, the majority of Israelites are customarily portrayed as not knowing real union and communion with God. Notwithstanding, God always had an enlightened people within the camp of Israel. They were a believing “remnant” that lived in the midst of an oft apostate nation. This was normally a small company of faithful Israelis.

This is all summed up in Isaiah 1:9, where we learned: “Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.” If God didn’t have an elect seed, Israel would have been wiped off the face of the map like Sodom. Graciously, there was always an ongoing elect people within Israel that had eyes to see and ears to hear. They were God’s true chosen covenant people.

The remnant congregation can be found throughout Scripture and relates to God’s true redeemed people throughout time. This is the invisible spiritual grouping among the visible congregation of God in both testaments. We are looking at the people of God (both Hebrew and Gentile) in both covenant economies. This is the household of faith in history. The true people of God are all those who know God and enjoy a personal covenant relationship with Him. Since the fall, God has dealt with man on the same basis throughout human history. From Adam to the end of time, salvation has always been by grace through faith.

True Israel has been expanded, not replaced

· We have shown you for years that we have been grafted into the true Israeli spiritual good olive tree (Romans 9-11).
· We have shown you for years that we who were once aliens from the citizenship of Israel have now been brought in through the blood of Christ to that privileged place (Ephesians 2).
· We have shown you for years that Jew and Gentile alike, have now been graciously merged together into the one harmonious spiritual Israel of God – the New Testament Church. This spiritual body recognizes no dispensational or ethnic separation at all (Galatians 6:15-16).

Under the new covenant, Gentile believers are being integrated into the citizenship of Israel. God’s promises and blessings have been extended beyond the righteous remnant of Israel to believing Gentiles who accept Christ as Lord and Savior. They are being grafted into the good Israeli olive tree by way of salvation throughout this intra-Advent period. Gentiles are being added to the household of Israel through faith in Israel’s Messiah. Under this Jewish umbrella, Gentiles enjoy favor with God and intimacy with Christ. They are now living stones in the New Testament temple. This renewed and expanded Israel includes countless Gentiles from all the nations of the world. The elect of God has grown from one single small physical nation in the Old Testament to incorporating millions of believers throughout the world today.

This geographical expansion to the nations was not some innovative New Testament revelation but was foretold to Abraham (the father of the faithful) right back in the book of Genesis (12:1-3, 17:3-8, 18:18 and 22:16-18). That revelation is found throughout the Old Testament narrative. Prophet after prophet foresaw this impending global expanse. When we get into the New Testament, we see its maturity and realization. That growth continues until today.

 

[Truth7t7]

Congratulations once again inside stepping all the New Testament scriptures that forbid your theories. You then resort to forcing a meaning upon the Old Testament Scripture that suits your claims. You do not seem to realize that God redeems individuals, not ethnic groups. Salvation has always been by grace alone, by faith alone, in Christ alone.

The passages that you quote simply prove that there is a remnant within the nation of Israel that will embrace the Lord Jesus Christ – their Messiah. That is called remnant theology. While Zionists like you are fixated with all things biologically Jewish, they seem blind to the fact that the infant New Testament Church was indeed faithful Israel. Christ’s early followers consisted of the elect remnant of Israel. This was the enlightened congregation of Jewish believers from among wider national Israel. They were the Israeli community who believed that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah.

This company contained people like Mary and Joseph, John the Baptist and his parents Zechariah and Elizabeth, Simeon and Anna who were waiting faithfully in the temple for Jesus, and early disciples like Peter, James and John. Many Jews recognized Jesus as the Messiah and embraced Him during His earthly ministry. In fact, they came to Him in great multitudes. Both Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea, who were both believed to be members of the ruling body of the Jews – the Sanhedrin, trusted in Him. Faithful Israel also included that Hebrew of the Hebrews the apostle Paul. The fledgling early Church overwhelmingly consisted of true believing Israelites. This was the ongoing righteous remnant of Israel. Those Jews who rejected Jesus were apostate Israel. They preferred to remain in their sins and go to a lost eternity.

The 12 apostles were Jewish. The New Testament writers were Jewish. The 70 disciples that were sent out to evangelize Israel were likewise. The true Israel of the Old Testament became the nucleus of the new covenant congregation. That small faithful band of Israelis that existed after the death, burial and resurrection of Christ became the New Testament Church, and became later known as Christians (Acts 11:26). It was that faithful number who Jesus used to make disciples of all nations (Matthew 28:19).

The 120, who met on the Jewish festival of Pentecost, were of solid Israeli stock. When Peter preached on the day of Pentecost after the Holy Spirit had fell, his audience was devout Jews “out of every nation under heaven” who had gathered in Jerusalem for the feast of Pentecost. That is why he addressed them as “Ye men of Israel” (Acts 2:5). Personally, three thousand of them experience salvation. Not long after that, God saved five thousand Jews in Jerusalem (Acts 4:4). Following that, there was “multitudes both of men and women” who “were the more added to the Lord” in Acts 5:14. There was a mighty ingathering of Jews in the early New Testament Church.

Well Said, I Agree 100%

Rating: AAA+++

 

[WPM]

Simple, take all those scriptures that you don't think are talking about a thousand year period and accept that they are talking about a thousand year period. And take all those scriptures that you think indicate a final climatic ending of the world and stop thinking that they do.

Premillennialist are constantly having to add onto Scripture by forcing it into passage after passage in the inspired text where it doesn't exist. That is why your doctrine so easily crumbles. That is it is so easily refuted. It enjoys zero corroboration.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It is actually Amils who are the typical literalists in end-time passages, and Premils spiritualize (or explain away) the explicit inspired detail away. This is just another example of countless where you and others do so. Amils spiritualize much of Revelation because context, genre and flow tell us that it is mainly figurative terms in the most symbolic setting in Scripture. What do Premils do there (surprise, surprise)? Literalize the apocalyptic detail. Talk about error and duplicity!!!

AA is looking for you! Amils reject the futurew of AIsrael and spiritualize away the prophets and even Jesus and Paul!

Butt I still await your answer as to why you have multiple Jesus' sitting on multiple thrones in REv. 20. Also when was Jesus beheaded for refusing the mark and keeping His testimony??? I love that you believe your multiple Jesus' will reign with Jesus for your unknown time frame.

YOu talk a slick philosophy but fail in reality.

 

[Truth7t7]

No way. Not at all. In fact, the books of Ezra and Nehemiah tell you that it wasn't. The people were just as evil as before. Nothing at all changed after the captivity.

Ezekiel prophesied to Israel in the 70 year Babylonian captivity, and you want a person to believe Chapter 36 is future "Please"!

Just like dispensationalism's claim that Ezekiel chapters 40-46 is speaking of a future Millennial Kingdom on this earth, just more "Malarkey"!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You mean like you do with straightforward passages like Matthew 25:31-46, Matthew 28:18, John 5:28-29, Ephesians 1:19-23, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Cor 15:22-24, Acts 17:31 and 2 Peter 3:10-13. Passages like those, if taken literally, teach that Jesus has been reigning since His resurrection, that He will destroy all of His enemies on the day He returns, that the dead in Christ will all be resurrected when Christ returns, that all of the dead (saved and lost) will be resurrected at generally the same time, and that all people will be judged at the same time. So, who is reinterpreting scripture here? It appears to be Premils like yourself who are doing that.

That supposed "golden rule of interpretation" is common nonsense and is not supported by scripture itself. It makes a mockery of what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 2:9-16, which is that "the natural man" cannot comprehend the deeper things taught in scripture and we need the help of the Holy Spirit to understand those things. But, you act as if everything is just spelled out for us without any need of the Holy Spirit's help to interpret it. Tell that to Paul.

Well I will answer this foolish comment when you gie answer to all the SCriptures I posted for you .

But then maybe Jesus didn't mean that He would actually rise from the dead! According to you we have an impossible time to know what was literally meant and what was spoken of in "spiritualman code". And how do you know your special code is the right one in light of the dozens that have gone before you?

And it is very disengenuous of you to add "deeper". If the plain simple normal words of the gospel are not understood by the natural man what next? God wants to make His word clear to believers. He did not write in some special code so that the "unique elites" can tell us what God really meant. IOW you believe this paraphrase:

I know that god said that and it means something- but He really didn't mean what He inspired., This is what He really meant! NOw I know there are symbols and euphemisms in Scripture, but Scripture defines thema dnwe don't need the tens of thousands of People who have come and gone editing god for us! No wonder why amils hold to many false doctrines- you keep rewriting Scripture because God told you that He really didn't mean the plain words He inspired, but He gave you the special ovaltine decoder ring!

 

[Truth7t7]

AA is looking for you! Amils reject the futurew of AIsrael and spiritualize away the prophets and even Jesus and Paul!

Butt I still await your answer as to why you have multiple Jesus' sitting on multiple thrones in REv. 20. Also when was Jesus beheaded for refusing the mark and keeping His testimony??? I love that you believe your multiple Jesus' will reign with Jesus for your unknown time frame.

YOu talk a slick philosophy but fail in reality.

I fully agree that (First Resurrection) doesn't pertain to (Jesus Christ) 2,000 years ago after the cross of Calvary as some would claim

Revelation 20:6KJV
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Truth7t7]

Well I will answer this foolish comment when you gie answer to all the SCriptures I posted for you .

But then maybe Jesus didn't mean that He would actually rise from the dead! According to you we have an impossible time to know what was literally meant and what was spoken of in "spiritualman code". And how do you know your special code is the right one in light of the dozens that have gone before you?

And it is very disengenuous of you to add "deeper". If the plain simple normal words of the gospel are not understood by the natural man what next? God wants to make His word clear to believers. He did not write in some special code so that the "unique elites" can tell us what God really meant. IOW you believe this paraphrase:

I know that god said that and it means something- but He really didn't mean what He inspired., This is what He really meant! NOw I know there are symbols and euphemisms in Scripture, but Scripture defines thema dnwe don't need the tens of thousands of People who have come and gone editing god for us! No wonder why amils hold to many false doctrines- you keep rewriting Scripture because God told you that He really didn't mean the plain words He inspired, but He gave you the special ovaltine decoder ring!

You must be looking into a Mirror, because I would say exactly the same of John N. Darby 1830's and C.I. Scofield 1909 and their false teachings found in dispensationalism that you follow and promote

 

[WPM]

AA is looking for you! Amils reject the futurew of AIsrael and spiritualize away the prophets and even Jesus and Paul!

Butt I still await your answer as to why you have multiple Jesus' sitting on multiple thrones in REv. 20. Also when was Jesus beheaded for refusing the mark and keeping His testimony??? I love that you believe your multiple Jesus' will reign with Jesus for your unknown time frame.

YOu talk a slick philosophy but fail in reality.

I address all your questions but you duck all mine. Notwithstanding, Rev 20 starts at the one-and-only first resurrection of Christ. This chapter covers the dead in Christ reigning in Paradise in the intermediate state and shows the righteous on earth being surrounded at the end before the second coming.

 

[Truth7t7]

I address all your questions but you duck all mine. Notwithstanding, Rev 20 starts at the one-and-only first resurrection of Christ. This chapter covers the dead in Christ reigning in Paradise in the intermediate state and shows the righteous on earth being surrounded at the end before the second coming.

I Disagree, (First Resurrection) in Revelation 20 doesn't represent that of Jesus Christ as you believe and teach

It represents the (First Resurrection) that takes place on the last day as you have been shown, once again

Paul there are (2) resurrection on the last day, the righteous are (The First Resurrection) to eternal life, (The Second Resurrection) is the wicked, this is the resurrection of the (Second Death)

There are (Two) resurrections on this (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life
2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.