"Why I'm Not Pre-Mil"

[Truth7t7]

"Why I'm Not Pre-Mil"

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

Of course I can find a physical earthly Kingdom! That's why I'm a Premil. The Kingdom of David was the model by which God promised His Kingdom would come to earth. When Jesus said God's Kingdom was "near," he was saying it wasn't yet here. That means it is coming here!

To have a Kingdom here, which at the time referred to Israel's deliverance, required that God assume complete and final control over the nations that had been afflicting Israel. In other words, again, the Kingdom of God is coming *here!*

If God delivered Israel in ancient times through temporary deliverances, by the hands of the judges and by the hands of the kings, then He means to deliver people *in their mortal state.* Why else would they need deliverance except if they were mortal and susceptible to defeat?

To assume these things are not physically here on earth among mortal men you would have to discount all of the promises the Prophets made about the final deliverance of Israel. And this has now been expanded to include other nations that wish to be called and chosen of God.

 

[David Boyer]

"Why I'm Not Pre-Mil"

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Sorry, are you serious?
No physical Earthly Kingdom?
No Physical Earthly Throne?
No Physical Mortal Humans?

Rev 20:1 "angel came down from heaven" so that would make the rest of this vision, not in heaven but on Earth. (Logic) ( so Earthly is now off the table)
Rev 20:4 "I saw thrones..." So there are thrones on earth. A kingdom is the sphere of influence(subjects) of the king. If Jesus subjects are on the earth then the kingdom is on earth(you could say the earthly kingdom is even now).
Rev 20:4 "lived and reigned with Christ" kinda sounds like a kingdom to me.
Rev 20:5 "the rest of the dead lived not again..." so some of the dead did live again. (so that would be humans on earth... possibly not mortal, but immortal)
Rev 20:2,4,6 "thousand years" sounds like literal time. Show me in Revelation where 1000 years is allegorical.

 

[Truth7t7]

Of course I can find a physical earthly Kingdom! That's why I'm a Premil. The Kingdom of David was the model by which God promised His Kingdom would come to earth. When Jesus said God's Kingdom was "near," he was saying it wasn't yet here. That means it is coming here!

To have a Kingdom here, which at the time referred to Israel's deliverance, required that God assume complete and final control over the nations that had been afflicting Israel. In other words, again, the Kingdom of God is coming *here!*

If God delivered Israel in ancient times through temporary deliverances, by the hands of the judges and by the hands of the kings, then He means to deliver people *in their mortal state.* Why else would they need deliverance except if they were mortal and susceptible to defeat?

To assume these things are not physically here on earth among mortal men you would have to discount all of the promises the Prophets made about the final deliverance of Israel. And this has now been expanded to include other nations that wish to be called and chosen of God.

Sounds like a big introduction to a sci-fi novel, because it sure isn't found in scripture

 

[Truth7t7]

Sorry, are you serious?
No physical Earthly Kingdom?
No Physical Earthly Throne?
No Physical Mortal Humans?

Rev 20:1 "angel came down from heaven" so that would make the rest of this vision, not in heaven but on Earth. (Logic) ( so Earthly is now off the table)
Rev 20:4 "I saw thrones..." So there are thrones on earth. A kingdom is the sphere of influence(subjects) of the king. If Jesus subjects are on the earth then the kingdom is on earth(you could say the earthly kingdom is even now).
Rev 20:4 "lived and reigned with Christ" kinda sounds like a kingdom to me.
Rev 20:5 "the rest of the dead lived not again..." so some of the dead did live again. (so that would be humans on earth... possibly not mortal, but immortal)
Rev 20:2,4,6 "thousand years" sounds like literal time. Show me in Revelation where 1000 years is allegorical.

The Angel coming to earth doesn't even suggest a earthly Kingdom, but shows a binding of a spiritual being on this earth (Satan)

"Lived and Reigned With Christ"? (The Souls) and (The Dead) are in the Lord's "Spiritual Realm", no mortal humans are seen, they live and reign in the spiritual "Smiles"!

"Not Literal" (Thousand Years) is nothing more than showing the Lord's eternal spiritual realm, that represents that seen in Revelation 20:4-6, the interpretation is given below in 2 Peter 3:8,

"Be Not Ignorant"

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

You can search scripture long and hard for your Millennial Kingdom on this earth, it isn't found in scripture, its a fabricated fairy tale of man

 

[David Boyer]

The Angel coming to earth doesn't even suggest a earthly Kingdom, but shows a binding of a spiritual being on this earth Satan

"Lived and Reigned With Christ" this is a Kingdom, the souls and the dead are in the Lord's "Spiritual Realm"

You can search scripture long and hard for your Millennial Kingdom on this earth, it isn't found in scripture, its a fabricated fairy tale of man

The Angel coming to earth suggests that we are talking about earth... so not in the heavens. That is my point. I work in small pieces.
"lived and reigned with Christ" shows a kingdom... That part of my argument did not refer to where or how.
I just showed a Millennial Kingdom using your references. If it is fabricated then show me how... using Revelation. I showed you how it is in Revelation... you show me how it isn't.

I notice you skipped over some of my points. Go back and tear my arguments apart one by one. If you can do that I would love to engage point by point to see your perspective and you could see mine.

 

[Truth7t7]

The Angel coming to earth suggests that we are talking about earth... so not in the heavens. That is my point. I work in small pieces.
"lived and reigned with Christ" shows a kingdom... That part of my argument did not refer to where or how.
I just showed a Millennial Kingdom using your references. If it is fabricated then show me how... using Revelation. I showed you how it is in Revelation... you show me how it isn't.

I notice you skipped over some of my points. Go back and tear my arguments apart one by one. If you can do that I would love to engage point by point to see your perspective and you could see mine.

My response clearly showed how there isn't a literal kingdom or mortals on earth, you haven't shown anything except your dreams and desire to see a kingdom and mortals on this earth, that are non-existant

A future Millennial Kingdom on this earth is a fabricated fairy tale of man, found no place in scripture

 

[David Boyer]

My response clearly showed how there isn't a literal kingdom or mortals on earth, you haven't shown anything except your dreams and desire to see a kingdom and mortals on this earth, that are non-existant

A future Millennial Kingdom on this earth is a fabricated fairy tale of man, found no place in scripture

I used your own references to refute your position.
Mortals on earth...
Rev 20:4 "lived and reigned with Christ" so people lived...
Rev 20:5 "the rest of the dead lived not again..." so SOME of the dead did live again. (so that would be humans on earth)

Obviously your post didn't clearly show anything... because I am confused by your response. Please be clearer.

 

[Truth7t7]

I used your own references to refute your position.
Mortals on earth...
Rev 20:4 "lived and reigned with Christ" so people lived...
Rev 20:5 "the rest of the dead lived not again..." so SOME of the dead did live again. (so that would be humans on earth)

Obviously your post didn't clearly show anything... because I am confused by your response. Please be clearer.

You see (The Souls) and (The Dead) below, show me where they are upon this earth, they aren't

The beheaded tribulation saints are (The Souls) and they "Live and Reign" with Jesus Christ in the Lord's eternal spiritual realm, it's that simple

All believers that have died will take part in the future (First Resurrection), they currently reign with the Lord, in the eternal spiritual realm of thoysand years is one day "Not Literal Time"

Revelation 20:4-6KJV
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[David Boyer]

You see (The Souls) and (The Dead) below, show me where they are upon this earth, they aren't

The beheaded tribulation saints are (The Souls) and they "Live and Reign" with Jesus Christ in the Lord's eternal spiritual realm, it's that simple

All believers that have died will take part in the future (First Resurrection), they currently reign with the Lord, in the eternal spiritual realm of 1,000 years

Revelation 20:4-6KJV
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

I did mention that Rev 20:1 was that John was on Earth during this part of the vision as he "saw an angel come down from heaven". So John is not in heaven, he is not transported to heaven during verses 2-4, so this part of the vision is on earth. The location of earth is not in verses 4-6, but previously. Context.

As for your other 2 points... that is your interpretation only. My reading is that it is what it says.
It sounds like your third point is saying that the past 2000 years are the 1000 spiritual years... ie Jesus lied in the vision to John or John lied when he wrote 1000 years.

Did Jesus lie?
Did John lie?
Did the Angels of God lie?
Or is it possible you are interpreting something that really should not be interpreted, but read. Rev 1:3

 

[No Pre-TB]

Except this:

Daniel 2
In the days of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will shatter all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, but will itself stand forever.

If God’s kingdom isn’t on earth, how does it destroy all other physical kingdoms on earth to be the only one to remain? Unless you take this spiritually. If so, their destruction still happens on earth with men who will live in a new moralized spiritual kingdom.

Or this:
Daniel 7
Then the sovereignty, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey Him

What are all the kingdoms under heaven but those on earth. For whenever under heaven is mentioned, it usually involves the inhabitants on earth. And It is also said to be given to his people. Don’t his people reside on earth? To say people rule in another place disagrees with the prophecy.

 

[Timtofly]

"Why I'm Not Pre-Mil"

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

You are not pre-mill because the dead are in sheol? Can those in Heaven see your soul?

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,"

Are you saying we are not even in reality now, since there is no reality in the future based on a few words, you type in red? Are the dead currently in sheol? Certainly that would rule out people on earth, even now. Why does the spiritual refute anything you claim? It would refute the here and now as well.

You claim a spiritual application, but are not people living on earth now, while souls of the dead are currently in sheol now?

Are we not priest now on earth? Why would that change after the Second Coming, when it does say the Lord still reigns after the Second Coming? You give no proof life ends at the Second Coming, but only insinuate Revelation 20 cannot be normal life, like the here and now is normal life. Yet those same things apply now. You don't have to move Revelation 20 to the here and now, but certainly you could not, for the same reasons they don't apply after the Second Coming. If they don't apply then, how could they apply now? Do those words change meanings at the Second Coming, or mean the same now, as they will then?

Life on earth is constantly changing, but souls are still souls. We are still dead in Adam's flesh, and souls are still in sheol. The only thing different after the Second Coming, is Adam's dead corruptible flesh no longer exist. But people still have souls, bodies, and spirits.

God gives earth and humanity a Day dedicated to God and holiness. Why is that so objectionable to some people? Remember the Sabbath Day? You may as well deny it, much less remember it, calling it a fairy tell and all.

 

[Timtofly]

The Angel coming to earth doesn't even suggest a earthly Kingdom, but shows a binding of a spiritual being on this earth

Yes, but earth is still there. Nothing changed according to your own testimony. You probably should have left off the earth part if you want consistency.

Actually Satan was bound in a pit in the earth, not just on the earth. So the author is talking about earth, and people living on earth, because no place does the scene revert back to heaven, and reigning in heaven. The church reigns in heaven. Those on earth, reign on earth.

Did they have bodies in Abraham's bosom or sheol? Do they have bodies in the LOF? Are you saying no one has bodies on earth in Revelation 20? Were they only souls that marched across the breadth of the earth? So those reigning in the camp of the saints, on earth, were they only souls, and no bodies?

That would mean no literal fire, and no literal Second Coming, all fairy tells in your version of Revelation 20. Of course there is not a Second Coming in Revelation 20, because it happened in Revelation 19. But how is your fairy tell version of Revelation different, if you interpret Revelation 20 as a fairy tell yourself? We read the same words you do.

 

[WPM]

Sorry, are you serious?
No physical Earthly Kingdom?
No Physical Earthly Throne?
No Physical Mortal Humans?

Rev 20:1 "angel came down from heaven" so that would make the rest of this vision, not in heaven but on Earth. (Logic) ( so Earthly is now off the table)
Rev 20:4 "I saw thrones..." So there are thrones on earth. A kingdom is the sphere of influence(subjects) of the king. If Jesus subjects are on the earth then the kingdom is on earth(you could say the earthly kingdom is even now).
Rev 20:4 "lived and reigned with Christ" kinda sounds like a kingdom to me.
Rev 20:5 "the rest of the dead lived not again..." so some of the dead did live again. (so that would be humans on earth... possibly not mortal, but immortal)
Rev 20:2,4,6 "thousand years" sounds like literal time. Show me in Revelation where 1000 years is allegorical.

1. If you are adamant in interpreting a thousand years hyper-literally, how long is the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes?
2. Show us one verse in Revelation 20 that mentions Christ reigning on earth on an earthly throne?
3. Is there anywhere in the New Testament that remotely corroborates the Premillennial view of Revelation 19-20 that the wicked survive the second coming of the Lord?

 

[WPM]

I used your own references to refute your position.
Mortals on earth...
Rev 20:4 "lived and reigned with Christ" so people lived...
Rev 20:5 "the rest of the dead lived not again..." so SOME of the dead did live again. (so that would be humans on earth)

Obviously your post didn't clearly show anything... because I am confused by your response. Please be clearer.

Revelation 19:11-16 makes clear, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Verses 17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors! Check out the detail here and show me how anyone could survive this? Revelation 19 forbids your doctrine. This shows how Premils are not the literalists they constantly claim. They spiritualize multiple passages that expose their doctrine. You localize the destruction in Revelation 19, despite it saying the opposite, that “the flesh of all men both free and bond, both small and great” would be destroyed. The suffix "both free and bond, both small and great” is added to insure even Premils couldn't wiggle out of this. The beast's army relates to all who are not in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world. Work that out! That is as water-tight and as comprehensive and all-embracing as the Holy Spirit can explain it. Obviously not enough for Premils, with their preconceived doctrine on chronology.

 

[David Boyer]

Revelation 19:11-16 makes clear, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Verses 17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors! Check out the detail here and show me how anyone could survive this? Revelation 19 forbids your doctrine. This shows how Premils are not the literalists they constantly claim. They spiritualize multiple passages that expose their doctrine. You localize the destruction in Revelation 19, despite it saying the opposite, that “the flesh of all men both free and bond, both small and great” would be destroyed. The suffix "both free and bond, both small and great” is added to insure even Premils couldn't wiggle out of this. The beast's army relates to all who are not in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world. Work that out! That is as water-tight and as comprehensive and all-embracing as the Holy Spirit can explain it. Obviously not enough for Premils, with their preconceived doctrine on chronology.

"How anyone could survive this"... by God's grace.
I'm not a literal-ist... I am a literature-ist.
Which army is the beasts army that is all not in the book of life? There are a few armies in Revealation.
Do the armies usually march with young children and pregnant women in the ranks. If we are being literal then no women are in the army because it is only the flesh of all men. Not youths or women. But I am not being literal.... I'm being literatural.

And where is this even relevant?
I don't see you making a point relevant to the topic under consideration.
Maybe you have spent too much time in school but you should simplify your ideas down to something worth debating.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Is there anywhere in the New Testament that remotely corroborates the Premillennial view of Revelation 19-20 that the wicked survive the second coming of the Lord?

Rev 22:14-15 is one.

As one commentator says,
For without are dogs,.... That is, without the holy city are such persons who are comparable to dogs for their filthiness, impudence, and voraciousness, as are persecutors, heretics, and apostates.

The New Jerusalem is intended. When it comes from heaven to earth, outside of it are the vile, wicked, those the Jews referred to as dogs. The New Jerusalem cannot come till Christ comes since it’s his bride.

 

[David Boyer]

1. If you are adamant in interpreting a thousand years hyper-literally, how long is the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes?
2. Show us one verse in Revelation 20 that mentions Christ reigning on earth on an earthly throne?
3. Is there anywhere in the New Testament that remotely corroborates the Premillennial view of Revelation 19-20 that the wicked survive the second coming of the Lord?

1. Not hyper-literally... just as it says. And one hour... in this day and age one hour is enough. The 10 kings might just agree with the beast long enough for a few actions to be taken then the Beast eliminates them or just takes over. They give their power to the Beast for 1 hour... maybe that is enough for what the Beast needs from the 10 kings.
2. I have posted the thought outline in previous posts... a) the vision is from earths perspective Rev 20:1 b) there are thrones Rev 20:4 c)Christ reigned Rev 20:4b
3. Paul's rapture passage... "we who remain" would be Christian survivors and the Matt 24:40 "one taken... one left" would indicate saved and unsaved existing at the same time. So there is some "remote corroboration" for you. But you won't accept it will you?

1Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Matt 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Matt 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

 

[WPM]

"How anyone could survive this"... by God's grace.
I'm not a literal-ist... I am a literature-ist.
Which army is the beasts army that is all not in the book of life? There are a few armies in Revealation.
Do the armies usually march with young children and pregnant women in the ranks. If we are being literal then no women are in the army because it is only the flesh of all men. Not youths or women. But I am not being literal.... I'm being literatural.

And where is this even relevant?
I don't see you making a point relevant to the topic under consideration.
Maybe you have spent too much time in school but you should simplify your ideas down to something worth debating.

Revelation 19 forbids your theology!

Revelation 19:11-16, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

A plain reading of the passage before us reveals that Christ is coming back with wrath to execute judgment and destroy all those left behind. He is not going to reward men for their rebellion by leading them unto the glorified new earth. Neither is Christ coming to engage in some ill-fated war against evil for a thousand years – that is not remotely in the text. The King of kings and Lord of lords will not have to fight for victory. He already won that decisively at the cross.

Christ is seen pouring out His wrath without mixture upon the nations as He smites them in His fury with “a sharp sword” that comes “out of his mouth.” What is the result of this act? It shall “smite the nations” that have missed the catching away. This is what awaits the nations. They are going to be smitten. The word for “smite” in this text is the Greek word patasso, which means to strike with a weapon or to smite fatally. It means to smite down, cut down, to kill, slay.

Let us be clear: Heis coming to smite down the nations, not corral them into some sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted millennial age. It says that “he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” This is not a pretty sight. This is not loose talk by God. This is not something that the nations should look forward to. What awaits the nations that have rejected Christ is utter destruction and devastation. The nations left behind are totally destroyed. Christ destroys them by the very utterance of His mouth.

The two words interpreted “fierceness” and “wrath” here are thumos and orge which are regularly employed in the New Testament to mean ‘fierceness, indignation, wrath and vengeance’. The word orge carries the additional meaning of ‘violent passion’. Clearly the Lord is not happy with those left behind. Like those left behind in Noah’s day and Sodom they face an awful end, as they receive the reward of their rejection of Christ.

Revelation 19:17-18 continues, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

Please see that the wicked are destroyed by the sword of His voice. This is complete wholesale total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

The feasting part of the marriage supper of the Lamb is a symbolism depicted the destruction of the wicked. Why can this not be a symbolic depiction of the return of Christ and the events that accompany it (including the destruction of the wicked)?

The first part of the narrative outlines a detailed account of the assignment given to “the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven” by the heavenly messenger. The “fowls” are instructed to “come and gather” themselves “together unto the supper of the great God” in order that they would “eat”:

1. The flesh of kings,
2. The flesh of captains,
3. The flesh of mighty men,
4. The flesh of horses, them that sit on them,
5. The flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

This passage powerfully and solemnly reveals the full extent of the devastation that is to be focused upon the wicked on the day of God’s wrath. In perfect keeping with the rest of Scripture, this narrative graphically shows us that the destruction that occurs will be immediate, absolute and total and that, at this stage – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7) – everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast.

The whole thrust of this reading surrounds a climactic end to the world. Like the rest of Scripture, it records the complete rescue of the saints in the “marriage of the lamb” and the complete destruction of the wicked when the fowls consume the entire wicked left behind. The passage makes no allowance for goats-survivors in this great destruction passage or mortals squeezing into a supposed future millennium. This reading seems to fit in with the scriptural pattern of an all-consummating Coming - all the wicked being consumed.

 

[David Boyer]

Revelation 19 forbids your theology!

Revelation 19:11-16, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

A plain reading of the passage before us reveals that Christ is coming back with wrath to execute judgment and destroy all those left behind. He is not going to reward men for their rebellion by leading them unto the glorified new earth. Neither is Christ coming to engage in some ill-fated war against evil for a thousand years – that is not remotely in the text. The King of kings and Lord of lords will not have to fight for victory. He already won that decisively at the cross.

Christ is seen pouring out His wrath without mixture upon the nations as He smites them in His fury with “a sharp sword” that comes “out of his mouth.” What is the result of this act? It shall “smite the nations” that have missed the catching away. This is what awaits the nations. They are going to be smitten. The word for “smite” in this text is the Greek word patasso, which means to strike with a weapon or to smite fatally. It means to smite down, cut down, to kill, slay.

Let us be clear: Heis coming to smite down the nations, not corral them into some sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted millennial age. It says that “he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” This is not a pretty sight. This is not loose talk by God. This is not something that the nations should look forward to. What awaits the nations that have rejected Christ is utter destruction and devastation. The nations left behind are totally destroyed. Christ destroys them by the very utterance of His mouth.

The two words interpreted “fierceness” and “wrath” here are thumos and orge which are regularly employed in the New Testament to mean ‘fierceness, indignation, wrath and vengeance’. The word orge carries the additional meaning of ‘violent passion’. Clearly the Lord is not happy with those left behind. Like those left behind in Noah’s day and Sodom they face an awful end, as they receive the reward of their rejection of Christ.

Revelation 19:17-18 continues, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

Please see that the wicked are destroyed by the sword of His voice. This is complete wholesale total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

The feasting part of the marriage supper of the Lamb is a symbolism depicted the destruction of the wicked. Why can this not be a symbolic depiction of the return of Christ and the events that accompany it (including the destruction of the wicked)?

The first part of the narrative outlines a detailed account of the assignment given to “the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven” by the heavenly messenger. The “fowls” are instructed to “come and gather” themselves “together unto the supper of the great God” in order that they would “eat”:

1. The flesh of kings,
2. The flesh of captains,
3. The flesh of mighty men,
4. The flesh of horses, them that sit on them,
5. The flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

This passage powerfully and solemnly reveals the full extent of the devastation that is to be focused upon the wicked on the day of God’s wrath. In perfect keeping with the rest of Scripture, this narrative graphically shows us that the destruction that occurs will be immediate, absolute and total and that, at this stage – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7) – everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast.

The whole thrust of this reading surrounds a climactic end to the world. Like the rest of Scripture, it records the complete rescue of the saints in the “marriage of the lamb” and the complete destruction of the wicked when the fowls consume the entire wicked left behind. The passage makes no allowance for goats-survivors in this great destruction passage or mortals squeezing into a supposed future millennium. This reading seems to fit in with the scriptural pattern of an all-consummating Coming - all the wicked being consumed.

Way to long of a response.
But where did I say anything that you are attributing to me?
I think you are arguing with your own preconceived ideas.
Make a point (in less than 200 words) or ask a question... but please stop answering questions that no one has asked or debating a ghost argument.