A Form of godliness

[Wrangler]

I teach that the Word, John 1, is Jesus

You teach imposing your trinitarian dogma onto monotheist text.

Its not that difficult to understand

Being wrong doesn't have to be hard to understand.

 

[Wrangler]

When someone doesn't hold out for the harmony, they can end up denying the plain saying, in this case, that God wasn't speaking to a co-creator when He said, "Let us make man . . ."

Not quite right. Just harminized differently.

How do you harmonize the plural pronouns here with the singular pronouns used 1,000's of other times, especially in the 1C?

 

[Wrangler]

What was the Word (logos) before it became flesh?

1 Tim 3:16,

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
​

Virtually all Biblical scholars, trinitarian included, admit that the word "God" is a forgery. It should be "...he who..."

Trinitarians seem to give no significance to evidence of fraud, in imposing trinitarian dogma onto monotheist text.

It made me ask WHY, what motivated the translators to commit these forgeries? The obvious answer is the actual word of God does not support trinitarianism as much as they'd like. So, they relied on imposing their doctrine onto the word of God.

Some deny the fraud and insist to this day the fraudulent verses are correct. Deep into indoctrination, they are.

 

[PinSeeker]

Scholars or not, there are several places in the scriptures where God convenes a council of spirit beings. He asks for their advice but of course He makes the final decision.

It might be... quite, um, interesting... :)... to hear some of your citations regarding where in Scripture you think advice is being given to God about how to do things... :) I would just point out the following:

• "I know that You can do all things, and that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted." (Job, Job 42:2)
• "...I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all My purpose...’" (Isaiah 46:9-10)
• "Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! 'For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been His counselor? Or who has given a gift to Him that He might be repaid?' For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be glory forever. Amen." (Paul, Romans 11:33-36)

I know there are many people who are lazy and don't want to put forth the effort required by a scholarly work into understanding the scriptures.

Well, I'm not sure I would be so quick with to tag it as "laziness," tag; there are a lot of really diligent folks out there on both ~ or all, I guess ~ sides of these things. it's really much more a matter of what scholarly work really is... where this understanding is really coming from. It's not hard sound full of understanding, but actually having true understanding is a whole 'nuther thing, especially when it comes to God's Word. Citing Job and Isaiah again:

• "But where shall wisdom be found? And where is the place of understanding? Man does not know its worth, and it is not found in the land of the living... From where, then, does wisdom come? And where is the place of understanding? It is hidden from the eyes of all living and concealed from the birds of the air... God understands the way to it, and He knows its place." (Job 28)
• "'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,' declares the LORD. 'For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

I'm... pretty sure... :)... this applies to everyone, even so-called "scholars." :)

They just want to take the easy road and stick with tradition.

Nah, it really goes all the way back to Eden and Adam's sin, which keeps repeating itself over and over and over again. This is, as I have said, the natural human condition. But one great Day, that will be no more. :)

But that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with actual scholarship.

Of course. Yeah, scholarship in and of itself, as I said above, is not the issue. :) But true wisdom and knowledge are gifts of the Spirit (Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12).

Grace and peace to you, Rich.

 

[Wrangler]

It might be... quite, um, interesting... :)... to hear some of your citations regarding where in Scripture you think advice is being given to God about how to do things...

Never heard how God authorized the deception of 400 of Ahab's prophets? Start there.

 

[PinSeeker]

You teach imposing your trinitarian dogma onto monotheist text.

This is a false dichotomy. Those who hold that Jehovah is triune are strict monotheists. They cannot be characterized as "tri-theistic" or polytheistic in any way with any degree of credibility. To do so is abject ignorance and demagoguery. Unitarian dogmatists, however, deny Who Jesus Christ is.

Grace and peace to you, Wrangler.

 

[PinSeeker]

Never heard how God authorized the deception of 400 of Ahab's prophets? Start there.

Sure. He ~ God, of course ~ works all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose (Romans 8:28). Surely you don't think God took the advice of anyone in deciding to do that... do you?

So... started and finished. :)

Next? :)

Grace and peace to you, Wrangler.

 

[marks]

Not quite right. Just harminized differently.

How do you harmonize the plural pronouns here with the singular pronouns used 1,000's of other times, especially in the 1C?

I don't discount either the plural or the singular, but hold both to be presenting truth. And that God uses plural and singular pronouns for Himself, this harmonizes with the fact of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all presented to us as a single God.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You teach imposing your trinitarian dogma onto monotheist text.

This is simply restating your assertion. This isn't an argument.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Virtually all Biblical scholars, trinitarian included, admit that the word "God" is a forgery. It should be "...he who..."

Not according to my collection of Bibles. I think you are referring the the textual variants between the few Alexandrian mss and the great many Majority mss, is that correct?



Much love!

 

[marks]

Some deny the fraud and insist to this day the fraudulent verses are correct. Deep into indoctrination, they are.

Or you just deny the verse as recorded in the vast majority of manuscripts.

Much love!

 

[Rich R]

It might be... quite, um, interesting... :)... to hear some of your citations regarding where in Scripture you think advice is being given to God about how to do things...

God is not a despot. He gave Adam and Eve dominion over the earth.

Psalm 82 is a good place to start your research. In Job 1 we even see God negotiating with the devil! Of course God always makes the final decision, but He does consult with the heavenly host, the various spiritual beings He created before He created the earth. With that in mind. how can you dismiss at least the possibility that God consulted with them in the creation of the heavens and the earth? Especially since Jesus was to come from the seed of David. David wasn't around in the beginning, so neither was his seed.

:) I would just point out the following:

• "I know that You can do all things, and that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted." (Job, Job 42:2)
• "...I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all My purpose...’" (Isaiah 46:9-10)
• "Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! 'For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been His counselor? Or who has given a gift to Him that He might be repaid?' For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be glory forever. Amen." (Paul, Romans 11:33-36)

All good verses, but they all have a context that would not preclude a divine council with whom God discusses things.

Well, I'm not sure I would be so quick with to tag it as "laziness," tag; there are a lot of really diligent folks out there on both ~ or all, I guess ~ sides of these things. it's really much more a matter of what scholarly work really is... where this understanding is really coming from. It's not hard sound full of understanding, but actually having true understanding is a whole 'nuther thing, especially when it comes to God's Word. Citing Job and Isaiah again:

• 
  
  
  • "But where shall wisdom be found? And where is the place of understanding? Man does not know its worth, and it is not found in the land of the living... From where, then, does wisdom come? And where is the place of understanding? It is hidden from the eyes of all living and concealed from the birds of the air... God understands the way to it, and He knows its place." (Job 28)
  • "'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,' declares the LORD. 'For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

I'm... pretty sure... :)... this applies to everyone, even so-called "scholars." :)

True enough. Like every field of study, there is good scholarship and there is poor scholarship. 2 Timothy 3:16 comes to mind. It tells us to study. Is not study a scholarly pursuit?

Nah, it really goes all the way back to Eden and Adam's sin, which keeps repeating itself over and over and over again. This is, as I have said, the natural human condition.

I know what you mean. Getting off topic for a second, to this day we have ministers telling the congregation at a funeral that, "God took little 2 year old Johnie because He wanted another flower in His garden." They might as well be saying, "God murdered little 2 year old..." A travesty if ever there was one! In Genesis God said people would die. The devil said they wouldn't. Whose side is that minister on? That's been going on for thousands of years.

Back on topic, I think that 2,000 years of trinity doctrine, or of Jesus being God is hard to shake off, but it can be.

But one great Day, that will be no more. :)

Yes! And in that day you'll finally see I'm right about everything I say here...just kidding!

Of course. Yeah, scholarship in and of itself, as I said above, is not the issue. :) But true wisdom and knowledge are gifts of the Spirit (Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12).

Good point. It is ultimately God's gift of holy spirit that guides us into the truth. But that doesn't discount 2 Tim 3:16 where we are told to study. Study is what scholars do. But prayer must accompany the scholarship. I think that is how to divide good Biblical scholarship from the shoddy.

God bless you brother!

 

[Behold]

You teach imposing your trinitarian dogma onto monotheist text.

Before God became a Man. 1 Timothy 3:16. John 1:14. He was in Heaven. = John 1

Find Him here...

"Let US... .make man.....In OUR Image".

See those 2?

Keep looking.

 

[Rich R]

This is a false dichotomy. Those who hold that Jehovah is triune are strict monotheists. They cannot be characterized as "tri-theistic" or polytheistic in any way with any degree of credibility. To do so is abject ignorance and demagoguery.

Three is three and one is one. There is no equivalence whatsoever. The only way that one can be three is if we interject strange concepts such as "essence" into the equation. It took some 300 years to come up with that idea. Paul had no idea about God being an "essence." Essence is a thing. It is not a person. Paul thought God was more personal than a thing.

Unitarian dogmatists, however, deny Who Jesus Christ is..

I've never met a Unitarian who didn't believe John's stated purpose in writing his gospel.

John 20:31,

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
​

Every Unitarian I know believes the Jesus is the son of God and the Messiah (Christ) whom God sent to redeem mankind from the devil's pawnshop. It's the trinity doctrine, or that Jesus is God, that flies in the face of this simple clearly stated reason for John's gospel. I'm afraid it's those who hold to Jesus being God that deny who he is.

 

[Rich R]

Before God became a Man. 1 Timothy 3:16. John 1:14. He was in Heaven. = John 1

Find Him here...

"Let US... .make man.....In OUR Image".

See those 2?

Keep looking.

1 Chr 17:7a, 11

Now therefore thus shalt thou say unto my servant David...And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go [to be] with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.

God came from the seed of David?

 

[Behold]

God came from the seed of David?

God who is Jesus in the Flesh, was made of the Seed of God.

 

[Wrangler]

Surely you don't think God took the advice of anyone in deciding to do that... do you?

I don’t have to think it. Scripture explains that’s what happens. Why else would anyone pray, if not to influence our Creator?

 

[Wrangler]

I don't discount either the plural or the singular

You changed reference point from harmonizing to discounting.

 

[Wrangler]

This is simply restating your assertion. This isn't an argument.

Much love!

I’m not making an argument. Just stating an observation from a confession

 

[Wrangler]

Or you just deny the verse as recorded in the vast majority of manuscripts.

Much love!

Appeal to Majority.