A Form of godliness

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Earburner

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Can you see how this can be interpreted?

If death is merely a sleep as per Daniel 12:2 Acts of the Apostles 2:31 (Jesus' life not left in the grave (hades)!)

2 Corinthians 4:9 we are persecuted, but not abandoned; we are knocked down, but not destroyed, 4:10 always carrying around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be made visible in our body.

This is all we can do while we are in this nature nothing more than have the knowledge of Jesus death and its meaning in our lives, but because we have that life in us when we sleep we are waiting for his resurrection to redeem us from the grave.

So it's by faith one will never die not by having some divine essence in us - we do not have anything immortal or eternal accept the knowledge of God and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

F2F
There is a problem with your "form of godliness".
Without the power of Christ's literal Spirit within you, you cannot be resurrected into immortality.
Romans 8[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

So in essence, you are literally following a false hope and system of belief, that "denies the power thereof". 2 Timothy 3[5] Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

The parable of the Ten virgins (Matthew 25:1-12) reveals that many who profess to be followers of Jesus, will be rejected. Not because they didn't know who Jesus is, but rather because Jesus didn't know who they were.
One must learn what "Oil" is symbolic of.
 
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Rich R

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John 17[5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Is the above verse something that you disagree with?
If so, then what do you perceive of it, other than what Jesus said?

Maybe this will help:
John 6[46] Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

BTW, since only God is the Creator, how is it that God spoke in plural, pointing to a Co-creator?
I ask you a question in a previous post. Maybe you didn't see it.
Lookup all the usages of the word "Elhoiym" in the OT. You will find several gods called Elhoiym. They are all single entities.
 
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Rich R

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Maybe you didn't read the NT.
Matthew 1
23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."
Maybe you haven't read the OT or the NT? Mathew is an OT quote. Did Joseph and Mary name him Jesus or Emanuel?

In any case, a name does not make the one named that name. Living near the Southern border, I not infrequently run into someone name Jesus. None are my savior though.
 

Earburner

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Can you see how this can be interpreted?

If death is merely a sleep as per Daniel 12:2 Acts of the Apostles 2:31 (Jesus' life not left in the grave (hades)!)

2 Corinthians 4:9 we are persecuted, but not abandoned; we are knocked down, but not destroyed, 4:10 always carrying around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be made visible in our body.

This is all we can do while we are in this nature nothing more than have the knowledge of Jesus death and its meaning in our lives, but because we have that life in us when we sleep we are waiting for his resurrection to redeem us from the grave.

So it's by faith one will never die not by having some divine essence in us - we do not have anything immortal or eternal accept the knowledge of God and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

F2F
Let's scripturally answer how it is that Born again believers shall never die.
1 John 5[11] And this is the record, that God HATH GIVEN to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
[12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
[13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that YE HAVE eternal life [NOW], and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. See also Revelation 3:20.
 

Earburner

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Lookup all the usages of the word "Elhoiym" in the OT. You will find several gods called Elhoiym. They are all single entities.
Do you have specific KJV verses that reference "several God's called Elhoiym"?
By using the STRONGS Hebrew H430, maybe you could list the "several" you know of from my reference site below:
H430 - 'ĕlōhîm - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (kjv)

Thanks, Earburner
 
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face2face

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There is a problem with your "form of godliness".
Without the power of Christ's literal Spirit within you, you cannot be resurrected into immortality.
Romans 8[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit (Word) of Christ, he is none of his.
The Spirit is described in many ways in the Scripture and interpreted to mean the Word of God when relating to Salvation and the Lord Jesus Christ. Ephesians 6:17 ; 2 Timothy 3:16-17; Hebrews 4:12 and so on. This is why we are told to grow in the knowledge of Jesus Christ which is another way of saying we should grow in the Spirit. Ephesians 5:26 states we are washed by it and ultimately that knowledge will save us. But if that is not convincing enough Jesus's own words should suffice John 6:63. (The Words I have given you are Spirit and are Life)

I'm not sure what you think it might be...maybe something powerful? God's essence...I'm not sure but the Bible is very clear what the Spirit is and how it operates on the mind and heart of those who receive it.
Leave you with John 15:14 for good measure.
F2F
 
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face2face

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Let's scripturally answer how it is that Born again believers shall never die.
1 John 5[11] And this is the record, that God HATH GIVEN to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
[12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
[13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that YE HAVE eternal life [NOW], and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. See also Revelation 3:20.

Yes correct, the Word of Life given to us is eternal (we are flesh) - I am glad you highlight the word "know" and "have" as this knowledge of God and Christ is precisely what Christ said in John 17:3 is what saves us - defined for us!

John 17:3 Now this is eternal life—that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

In the grave, our faith and knowledge of them is known of the Father and this holds us for the coming resurrection, which is promised - there is nothing eternal in you, accept that knowledge of them and this is why the entire Scripture from cover to cover speaks of death as a sleep for the responsible.

And this is why Jesus & Paul place so much emphasis on learning God's Word and remaining untouched by falsehood.

2 Timothy 3:14 You, however, must continue in the things you have learned and are confident about. You know •who taught you 3:15 and how from infancy you have known the holy writings, which are able to give you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 3:16 Every scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 3:17 that the person dedicated to God may be capable and equipped for every good work.

You can see what is given (in Word) is a wisdom which provides faith in Christ Jesus and will ultimately lead you to salvation. So you can see how it can be said one can have eternal life now because the Word of God is saving power in a believers life. You can also see the ramifications of those who moved away from the original Gospel and the rebuke given matches the consequences, even the loss of eternal life.

Hence, why I try to correct a wrong understanding at every opportunity.

F2F
 

face2face

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@Earburner so the rebirth is a process, as one slowly changes in mind and action toward maturity in the things of God - for Christ his perfection was a process of being disciplined and through suffering was he able to crucify the flesh and its passions Hebrews 2:10; Hebrews 5:8 and us in Galatians 5:24 so on. It's the obedience to the Word of God (now Christ who is the Word made Flesh) which is our teacher and savior.

Hope that helps.
 

Jack

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Maybe you haven't read the OT or the NT? Mathew is an OT quote. Did Joseph and Mary name him Jesus or Emanuel?

In any case, a name does not make the one named that name. Living near the Southern border, I not infrequently run into someone name Jesus. None are my savior though.
Yes I have read the OT. Have you?

Micah 5
2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting."
 
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Earburner

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@Earburner so the rebirth is a process, as one slowly changes in mind and action toward maturity in the things of God - for Christ his perfection was a process of being disciplined and through suffering was he able to crucify the flesh and its passions Hebrews 2:10; Hebrews 5:8 and us in Galatians 5:24 so on. It's the obedience to the Word of God (now Christ who is the Word made Flesh) which is our teacher and savior.

Hope that helps.
No. Our salvation is a two stage process!
Our being born again/rebirth is instantaneous, in the moment we invite Jesus "INTO" our life. Revelation 3:20.

It appears that no one here is interested in knowing what the "Oil" is symbolic of in the parable of the Ten Virgins, KJV Matthew 25:1-12.
Here is a clue to get you started:
KJV Psalms 119[105] Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

1. In the parable, what is the source of the light, that is IN the lamp called?
Ans. _ _ _.

2. Now, in verse 4, what does the word "vessel" symbolize?
Ans. 2 Corinthians 4:7.

3. What is the symbolic meaning of the Wise virgins who took "Oil" IN their "vessels", WITH their "lamps"?

4. What does the "Oil" symbolize?
5. What does a "vessel" symbolize?
 
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face2face

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No. Our salvation is a two stage process!
Our being born again/rebirth is instantaneous, in the moment we invite Jesus "INTO" our life. Revelation 3:20.

It appears that no one here is interested in knowing what the "Oil" is symbolic of in the parable of the Ten Virgins, KJV Matthew 25:1-12.
Here is a clue to get you started:
KJV Psalms 119[105] Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

1. In the parable, what is the source of the light, that is IN the lamp called?
Ans. _ _ _.

2. Now, in verse 4, what does the word "vessel" symbolize?
Ans. 2 Corinthians 4:7.

3. What is the symbolic meaning of the Wise virgins who took "Oil" IN their "vessels", WITH their "lamps"?

4. What does the "Oil" symbolize?
5. What does a "vessel" symbolize?

Great post Earburner! (said sincerely!)

Here are a few thoughts in relation to the phrase "took no oil" which you allude to above.

Undisputed is the symbol a representation of the truth shining in a dark place as per Psalms 119:105; Matthew 5:16; Leviticus 24:1-4.

The foolish did have the basic oil as per Matthew 25:8.

However it was the custom to carry reserves!

This was failure to add to their knowledge as per 2 Peter 1:5-9 (the Word of Christ teaching and admonishing you is the oil!)

You see how your implied understanding of the oil doesn't fit with the parable?

You see Earburner this is not about whether a person has or hasn't got the Spirit as you imply - this parable is ALL about the activity of the believer to store up enough oil reserves to allow their faith enough enduring strength to wait for the Lord.

In Matthew 25:4 The “Wise… oil in their vessels” “flasks of oil” the wise have plenty in reserve!!!

They were “anointed” with the knowledge of the truth as 1 John 2:27-29 (the true Gospel is the Power of God for salvation which Christ has taught you!)

I really hope you spend some time in those references.

F2F
 
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face2face

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@Earburner

Matthew 25:5 shows you the context of the oil as a demonstration of what not to do!

They “Slumbered and slept” - can you see it's clear all the virgins did not anticipate so long a delay which is the case today.

Paul warns of spiritual sleep which is the issue for Christians today, who believe they have this ethereal essence of God and can think they can live their lives free of the responsibility of adding to their oil. 1 Thessalonians 5:6

It at an hour they least expect that Christ will come "at midnight" He comes like a thief Matthew 24:42-44

Again Earburner, if you believe you are given something eternal other than the Words of Christ this parable isn't the one to prove that.

The foolish lazy virgins were told by the wise “Buy for yourselves” Matthew 25:9 for they knew these spiritual values can be bought without money as per Isaiah 55:1-3; Ephesians 5:16 & Revelation 3:18. Note the intended meaning “buy for yourselves” - it was a personal responsibility to discover the truth of Christ and his knowledge. The reality is "none can redeem his brother" and the wise Virgins were powerless to help them.

The wise virgins looked upon themselves as the true bride of Christ who makes herself ready as per Revelation 19:7-8, and that by her submission to the bridegroom responsible to her beauty as Ephesians 5:25-27. (the washing of the Word give oil!)

These posts have shown you is it's possible your focus in learning about the one true Gospel (oil) and your responsibly to finding truth (oil) is ever so pressing (pardon the pun) before the Master comes and while you can trust in your so called "eternal spirit", I think you will find this delusion will not bode well for you on the day of his coming.

Hard sayings, I know, but said out of love.

F2F
 
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face2face

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@everyone

Matthew 25:12

If Jesus says “I know you not” its more important to be known than to merely academically know!

1 Corinthians 8:1-3 & Galatians 4:9

Sober warning for us all!

The danger is this - the foolish Christians thought they knew who Jesus was and in the end they were not known of him. The wise Christians feared sufficiently to feed their lamps with God's Words while the Master tarried and were found to be known of him.

The endowment of the Spirit is one of the most dangerous doctrines the modern Christian must overcome. We must labor diligently to bring the life of Christ into our lives everyday through prayer, reading, meditation and study which will keep our lamps trimmed and plenty of oil in reserve.

F2F
 
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Rich R

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Do you have specific KJV verses that reference "several God's called Elhoiym"?
By using the STRONGS Hebrew H430, maybe you could list the "several" you know of from my reference site below:
H430 - 'ĕlōhîm - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (kjv)

Thanks, Earburner
Is there a reason you can't look it up yourself? If so, I'll be glad to help, but it would be better if you did it yourself. It'd be a good application of 2 Tim 2:15 for you. I don't know you very well, but you do seem to be able enough to do that.
 
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Rich R

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Yes I have read the OT. Have you?
Then you should know there are many people with the "el" as part of their name.

A name is an abstract representation of a concrete person. While a parent might hope their child would live up to a name with "el" in it, i.e., be a godly child, it in no way defined the nature of that child. Not every guy named "rich" is rolling in the dough.

Micah 5
2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting."
That proves Jesus is God? God was somehow little among the thousands of Judah? God was born from the tribe of Judah? Seriously, those are questions that ought to be answered.[/QUOTE]
 

Earburner

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Is there a reason you can't look it up yourself? If so, I'll be glad to help, but it would be better if you did it yourself. It'd be a good application of 2 Tim 2:15 for you. I don't know you very well, but you do seem to be able enough to do that.
Well, OK, if you insist.
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Gen 28:12 - And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God H430 ascending and descending on it.
Gen 32:1 - And Jacob went on his way, and the angels of God H430 met him.
Psa 8:5 - For thou [H430] hast made him a little lower than the angels [of God], H430 and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Psa 68:17 - The chariots of God H430 are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.

> My site isn't bringing anything else up for angels under H430, therefore I see Psalms 8:5 as being a [typo], where the reference of H430 should've been placed after the word "thou".

What did you find of the other "several"?

 
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Earburner

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@everyone

Matthew 25:12

If Jesus says “I know you not” its more important to be known than to merely academically know!

1 Corinthians 8:1-3 & Galatians 4:9

Sober warning for us all!

The danger is this - the foolish Christians thought they knew who Jesus was and in the end they were not known of him. The wise Christians feared sufficiently to feed their lamps with God's Words while the Master tarried and were found to be known of him.

The endowment of the Spirit is one of the most dangerous doctrines the modern Christian must overcome. We must labor diligently to bring the life of Christ into our lives everyday through prayer, reading, meditation and study which will keep our lamps trimmed and plenty of oil in reserve.

F2F
Actually NO!
It's as simple as this:
Romans 8[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
The symbolic "oil" is the Holy Spirit of God, who is NOT an additional Spirit, but rather God the Father and Jesus together, as One.
 

Earburner

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Jack referenced:
Micah 5
2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting."
Rich replied:
That proves Jesus is God? God was somehow little among the thousands of Judah? God was born from the tribe of Judah? Seriously, those are questions that ought to be answered.
Earburner's reply:
I can't let this go by.
Jack hi-lighted the words: "From everlasting", which is pointing to Jesus in eternity past.

Bethlehem:
"Biblical scholars believe Bethlehem, located in the "hill country" of Judea, may be the same as the Biblical Ephrath, which means "fertile", as there is a reference to it in the Book of Micah as Bethlehem Ephratah. The Hebrew Bible also calls it Beth-Lehem Judah, and the New Testament describes it as the "City of David".
-Wikipedia
 

Rich R

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Well, OK, if you insist.
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Gen 28:12 - And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God H430 ascending and descending on it.
Gen 32:1 - And Jacob went on his way, and the angels of God H430 met him.
Psa 8:5 - For thou [H430] hast made him a little lower than the angels [of God], H430 and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Psa 68:17 - The chariots of God H430 are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.

> My site isn't bringing anything else up for angels under H430, therefore I see Psalms 8:5 as being a [typo], where the reference of H430 should've been placed after the word "thou".

What did you find of the other "several"?
I think you can understand that the folks who lived 3,000 years ago in a culture radically different (Ancient Near East) than our Modern West might think differently, that their world view might be quite different than our own. The ancient Near East Jew looked at a word and thought one thing, whereas a modern Westerner looks at the same word and thinks something totally different. It's no wonder that language and the meaning of words change with time. Part of really digging deep into the scriptures requires that we look at things from their perspective, not ours. After all, the Bible was not written last year in New York or LA. :)

With that said, here's three verses that call singular entities by the plural elohiym:

Judg 11:24,

Wilt not thou possess that which Chemosh thy god (elohiym) giveth thee to possess? So whomsoever the LORD our God shall drive out from before us, them will we possess.
Chemosh is not considered to be a trinity, but he is called elohiym, plural.

1 Kgs 11:5,

For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
Ashtoreth is not considered to be a trinity, but she is called elohiym, plural.

2 Kgs 1:2,

And Ahaziah fell down through a lattice in his upper chamber that [was] in Samaria, and was sick: and he sent messengers, and said unto them, Go, enquire of Baalzebub the god of Ekron whether I shall recover of this disease.
Baalzebub is not considered to be a trinity, but he is called elohiym, plural.

Elohiym is not God's name. His name is Yahweh, which means:

H3068 יְהוָה Yhvah (yeh-vaw') n/p.
יְהוָֹה Yhovah (yeh-ho-vaw')
יְהוֹ Yhow (yeh-ho') [as a prefix]
1. (meaning) the self-Existent or Eternal, the I AM.
2. (person) Yahweh (Yehvah), Jewish national name of God.​

When we want to specifically designate the creator of the universe, we us "Yahweh." Yahweh is the one true God. Jesus is the son of Yahweh.

Elohiym means:

H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') n-m.
אֱלֹהֵי 'elohiy (el-o-hee') [alternate plural]
1. (literally) supreme ones.
2. (hence, in the ordinary sense) gods.
As you saw in your research, there are many elohiym but only one Yahweh. Whatever one might believe about the trinity, the usage of the plural Elohiym for Yahweh is not a good proof for the trinity.
 
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PinSeeker

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I don't recall saying anything about where you are or where you are going.
Neither have I. All I said is that you have been led astray, Rich. And that you would say the same of me; you have said I have "just listened to my pastors," which is pretty much the same thing in different words.

Frankly, I'm getting bored talking about you and myself.
Well, I wouldn't say "bored," but I agree that it's not about you or me, sure.

I'd really like to stick with the scriptures.
Sure.

This is a debate forum, not a bash fest.
Yes, and again, I haven't "bashed" anybody, by any stretch of the imagination, Rich.

God made the comparison!

Gen 41:40,

Thou (Joseph) shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I (Pharaoh) be greater than thou.​
God absolutely made no such comparison between Himself and Pharoah, as if Pharoah were some type/shadow of Him. I that's what you're saying, Rich, that is absolutely ridiculous; it's totally beyond the pale. Except for the fact that as Joseph is not Pharoah, Jesus is not the Father. :) A word search using any good concordance of 'compare' will ~ well, should, anyway ~ completely dispel any thought that God compared Himself to Pharoah (whom He hardened) in any way. As Isaiah says:

"All the nations are as nothing before Him, they are accounted by Him as less than nothing and emptiness. To whom then will you liken God, or what likeness compare with Him?"

So, quite obviously ~ based on Scripture itself ~ I completely dismiss your comment and assertion. You are welcome to it, but it goes nowhere with me, my friend.

In the field of logic, we would say, Jesus is to God as Joseph is to Pharaoh. Both Joseph and Jesus were granted total authority over their respective kingdoms, Joseph by Pharaoh, and Jesus by God. But both Pharaoh and God reserved the final word about things to themselves.
Well, Jesus is to the Father, on an elemental level, but on that level only, as Joseph is to Pharoah... Jesus and the Father are distinct Persons, and Joseph and Pharoah were distinct persons. But no real comparison, much less any analogy, can be made, for at least two reasons:
  1. Pharoah never gives up his kingdom to Joseph, but only grants him authority over it, whereas the kingdom of the world, Rich, ultimately becomes ~ as we see in Revelation 11:15 ~ the Kingdom of our Lord (the Father) and of His Christ (Jesus) ~ which clearly shows the Father and His Christ judging finally (in the Person of Christ) and reigning together (as the one true God (with the Spirit of God, of course) in eternity ~ and He shall reign forever and ever.”
  2. As Jesus says in John, (He) and the Father are one (John 10), and (He) is in the Father and the Father is in (Him); (He) and the Father are one (John 14). No such thing can be said of Joseph and Pharoah by anyone. Joseph never would have insinuated any like thing regarding him and Pharoah. Even having been raised by Pharoah to being the second in command over Egypt, the reason for that happening (God's purpose) is not for Pharoah's benefit at all or even Egypt's, but for Israel's benefit/good: "God meant it for good, that many should be kept alive" (Genesis 50:19), and as you know ~ yes, there was some time elapsed (400 years) ~ God brought Israel out of slavery in Egypt in the Exodus. If Joseph had not been there to save Israel, there would have been no Exodus for there would have been no Israel... and ultimately, no Jesus, and no salvation for anyone. This was God's purpose. Thanks be to God.
The upshot; Joseph is not Pharaoh and Jesus is not God!
Indeed, Joseph is not Pharoah, and Jesus is not the Father. :) On an elemental level, Rich, I agree, as I said. But... see above. :)

Grace and peace to you.
 
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