The Godly Heresy of Sinless Perfectionism

[Bible Highlighter]

The Law of sin is not the law of Moses. The law of sin is that Paul can't help himself. That sin took him over and he was in bondage to it.

I respectfully disagree.

2 Corinthians 3:6
”Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.”

The letter here is the Old Law, the Torah, or the 613 Laws of Moses. Believers are to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (Romans 7:6).

 

[HIM]

I respectfully disagree.

2 Corinthians 3:6
”Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.”

The letter here is the Old Law, the Torah, or the 613 Laws of Moses. Believers are to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (Romans 7:6).

Roman 7 and 8 not Corinthians

 

[-Phil]

We see. Maybe a doctor can help. We will pray for you that you get help be healed

I’m just pointing to what’s actual of your experience. Like that there is no experience of ‘we see’.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Roman 7 and 8 not Corinthians

All New Testament theology breathes as a whole. The Bereans were more noble because they searched the Scriptures to see whether those things be so or not (and not just an isolated book out of the Bible). So I disagree. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. Acts 13:39 says you cannot be justified by the Laws of Moses. In Acts 15:1, Acts 15:5, Acts 15:24 the Jerusalem council officially tells Gentile Christians that they do not have to keep the whole of the Laws of Moses (and they were only highlighting certain laws like not eating blood, etc.). Galatians 5:4 says if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace. This would be the Old law and not The Laws that come from Jesus and His followers. The Old Law has ended upon the cross. Christ nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us (Colossians 2:14).

 

[HIM]

All New Testament theology breathes as a whole. The Bereans were more noble because they searched the Scriptures to see whether those things be so or not (and not just an isolated book out of the Bible). So I disagree. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. Acts 13:39 says you cannot be justified by the Laws of Moses. In Acts 15:1, Acts 15:5, Acts 15:24 the Jerusalem council officially tells Gentile Christians that they do not have to keep the whole of the Laws of Moses (and they were only highlighting certain laws like not eating blood, etc.). Galatians 5:4 says if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace. This would be the Old law and not The Laws that come from Jesus and His followers. The Old Law has ended upon the cross. Christ nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us (Colossians 2:14).

Yep but one can’t make one set of scripture say what it doesn’t say. Romans 7 and 8 does not say the the Law of sin is the law of Moses. Nor does it imply it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

James 5:16, 1John 1:9

As for James 5:16:

James 5:16 says:
”Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.”

However, what this verse or chapter does not say is that the believer will continually be in sin the rest of their life. Believers come in at different walks of life and growth stages and they can stumble along the way and seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus before they mature and put away sin out of their lives. In fact, James 5:19-20 talks about bringing back a brother to being faithful to Jesus again who went prodigal into a life of sin by their getting them to confess of their sins to Jesus and rededicate their life to Christ. By helping this prodigal believer, they should know that they have helped save a soul from death, and have helped to cover a multitude of sins. In fact, in Luke 15: In the parable of the prodigal son, after the prodigal son gave up living it up with prostitutes and came home to his father seeking forgiveness with him, his father said he was “dead” and he is “alive AGAIN.” The son did not die physically in the parable. So it is speaking in spiritual terms. The son died spiritually by living in sin and he became alive AGAIN spiritually by coming back to his father and in seeking forgiveness with Him.​

As for 1 John 1:9:

It says that confessing sin can cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. It does not seem you believe that. John also says in 1 John 2:1 to, “sin not” (Which again is not something you believe is possible).​

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yep but one can’t make one set of scripture say what it doesn’t say. Romans 7 and 8 does not say the the Law of sin is the law of Moses. Nor does it imply it.

Again, I disagree.

2 Corinthians 3:7 says:
”But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:”

Romans 7:6 says:
”But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.”

 

[HIM]

Again, I disagree.

2 Corinthians 3:7 says:
”But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:”

Romans 7:6 says:
”But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.”

No mention of the law of Moses being the law of sin there.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No mention of the law of Moses being the law of sin there.

It says the Law of sin and death. Death is tied to Romans 7:6 and 2 Corinthians 3:6-7.
The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23).
We see Paul struggle with sin by being under this Old Law (i.e. in other words, he was not serving in newness of Spirit but he was serving in the oldness of the letter, i.e. the Torah - See Romans 7:6).
Romans 7:1 tells you the framework or context in that he is speaking to those who know the Law (Torah).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@HIM

The idea is that Paul wants us to fulfill the RIGHTEOUSNESS of the law (i.e. the righteous aspect or part of the Old Law) - Romans 8:4. This would be loving your neighbor (Which fulfills all of the Old Law automatically - See: Romans 13:8-10). This is the Moral Law like do not steal, do not murder, etcetera. Loving your neighbor (in the New Covenant way by the Spirit) will fulfill the Moral Law. This is the aspect of the Old law that Paul wanted to keep in Romans 7:14-24 but he was not able to do so because he was under the whole of the 613 laws of Moses. Paul needed to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (i.e. The Torah) (See again Romans 7:6). Christians are not under the Law (Romans 6:14).

Again, the Torah is obviously called the Law of sin and death because you could be stoned (put to death physically) for not obeying the Torah. This is not the case with the Laws of Christ in the New Covenant. Jesus did not stone the woman who was caught in the act of adultery (Even though it was prescribed to do so according to the Torah).

 

[HIM]

It says the Law of sin and death. Death is tied to Romans 7:6 and 2 Corinthians 3:6-

But the law of sin is not stated to be the law of Moses. It is said to be something else. Verse 21 says he finds a law, that when he would do good evil is present with him. This is a new law. Then 22 he says he delights in the law of God but goes on to say that another law, that when he would do good evil is present with him wars against the law of his mind, the law of God. And this law, that when he would do good evil is present with him brings him into captivity to the law of sin which is in his members. That he can’t do the things that he would. This is what Paul had been set free from in Christ Jesus that the righteousness of the law be fulfilled in Him in verse 8:2-4
Take care

Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But the law of sin is not stated to be the law of Moses. It is said to be something else. Verse 21 says he finds a law, that when he would do good evil is present with him. This is a new law. Then 22 he says he delights in the law of God but goes on to say that another law, that when he would do good evil is present with him wars against the law of his mind, the law of God. And this law, that when he would do good evil is present with him brings him into captivity to the law of sin which is in his members. That he can’t do the things that he would. This is what Paul had been set free from in Christ Jesus that the righteousness of the law be fulfilled in Him in verse 8:2-4
Take care

Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

You have to keep it within context now, my friend.

Romans 8:2-4 says:
2 ”For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”

Verse 3 picks up the conversation of the Law from the Law mentioned in verse 2.
Verse 3 cannot refer to the Law as being the Law which is an enslavement to sin mentioned in Romans 7:23.
Verse 3 is saying what the Law (Torah) could not do in that it is weak through the flesh (because Christians are not under the Law - Romans 6:14), God sent His Son and condemned sin in the flesh.
Christ nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us (Colossians 2:14).
Paul says if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2).
So it’s actually a sin to go back to the Old Law as a whole and require others to obey all of it (Because that was the Old Covenant system of faith and it is not a part of the New Testament way of faith).
Verse 4 says that the righteousness of the Law (i.e. the righteous aspect or part of the Old Law - Romans 13:8-10) might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh (the whole of the Old Law) but who walk after the Spirit. This would be following the New Covenant Scriptures that is inspired by the Spirit for New Covenant believers to follow.

Romans 8:3 cannot possibly be read as referring to the Law that enslaves us to sin as mentioned in Romans 7:23.
It only makes sense if it is referring to the Torah.
Therefore, Romans 8:2 is referring how the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus makes us free from the Torah so as to serve in newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (See again Romans 7:6).

 

[HIM]

And one should refrain from deep editing once a post is posted. A correction here and there is one thing but when the whole post changes is another

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And one should refrain from deep editing once a post is posted. A correction here and there is one thing but when the whole post changes is another

Well, I don’t see anything wrong with it, and you don’t make the rules here, my friend.
I am free to edit and revise as I please. I revise as needed so as to say it in the best way possible. There is no ill will in revising my posts. The purpose of editing my posts is for clarity to all the readers here.

 

[HIM]

@HIM

The idea is that Paul wants us to fulfill the RIGHTEOUSNESS of the law (i.e. the righteous aspect or part of the Old Law) - Romans 8:4. This would be loving your neighbor (Which fulfills all of the Old Law automatically - See: Romans 13:8-10). This is the Moral Law like do not steal, do not murder, etcetera. Loving your neighbor (in the New Covenant way by the Spirit) will fulfill the Moral Law. This is the aspect of the Old law that Paul wanted to keep in Romans 7:14-24 but he was not able to do so because he was under the whole of the 613 laws of Moses. Paul needed to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (i.e. The Torah) (See again Romans 7:6). Christians are not under the Law (Romans 6:14).

Again, the Torah is obviously called the Law of sin and death because you could be stoned (put to death physically) for not obeying the Torah. This is not the case with the Laws of Christ in the New Covenant. Jesus did not stone the woman who was caught in the act of adultery (Even though it was prescribed to do so according to the Torah).

You are not answering the points to which are in the posts that you are responding to. It is the Law of sin. Not the law of sin and death. Two things not one. Death isn’t mentioned until verse 24. Verse 21 states the law that Paul found is that when he would do good evil is present. This stated by the word that. He says that this law is another law in verse 23 and it wars against the law of God which is in his mind and it brings him into captivity to this law of sin in his members and then cries out who will deliver him from this body of death that law of sin is keeping him in captivity. Verse 8:2 states we are delivered from both the law of sin and death. Verse 4 states that this done so that the righteousness of the law be fulfilled in us. This connects us back to Verse 6: 1-8. Which is the prelude to chapter 7.

Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

 

[HIM]

Well, I don’t see anything wrong with it, and you don’t make the rules here, my friend.
I am free to edit and revise as I please. I revise as needed so as to say it in the best way possible. There is no ill will in revising my posts. The purpose of editing my posts is for clarity to all the readers here.

You went from a couple sentences to a couple paragraphs if I am not mistaken. That is an issue if that is what you did. Whether you or I see it as issue or not. And no We don’t make the rules but we will respond and do as we see fit as you said.

 

[RLT63]

In Romans 7:14:24: It does matter what tense you put on it because if Paul was speaking as a Pharisee (as Saul) in that he would be under the 613 Laws of Moses, he would have been seeking to justify himself by the Law (Torah) and thus he would have been fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4), and he would need Jesus Christ and His grace to be saved. As I said the context of the chapter starts off with addressing those who know the LAW or the Torah (Please see Romans 7:1). So this is the framework or context Paul is talking within.

Romans 8:2 says, “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.”

TWO Laws are mentioned here.

#1. The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (New Covenant Law).​

#2. Law of Sin and Death (The Torah or the 613 Laws of Moses because you could be put to death physically for disobeying it).​

What is the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus?

Romans 8:1 tells us.

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”​

Romans 7:6 says “we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.”

Walking after the Spirit is the New Covenant way in serving and we were not to walk after the flesh (being under the Old Law) or justifying some kind of sin (So as not to be under the Condemnation).

To paraphrase the Wikipedia article, the New Testament is filled with Historical Present usage and the gospel Mark is an excellent example. So to say that this could not be Historical Present in Romans 7:14-24 is not only immoral (as an attempt to justify sin), but it is not in line with what we do read in the whole of the New Testament. You want to enforce your Modern understanding on grammar usage so as to justify the idea that Paul struggled with sin and was saved (When that runs contrary to the whole of the Bible). But God’s grace is not a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). If the Bible is indeed not saying you can sin and be saved and yet you twist it to say that, then you are justifying sin (Whether you agree with that view or not; It simply is the reality). In other words, I would not want to take the chance at risking my soul in justifying sin and I would want to always do the right thing with the LORD Jesus Christ. To say we can sin and still be saved means God would have to agree with your sin and that’s not possible because God is holy, just, and good.

Stop and think for a moment.

1 Corinthians 2:16 says we have the mind of Christ.
Jesus never had a mind to justify or condone any kind of sin because He is God Almighty in the flesh (Second person of the Godhead or Trinity). So… if Jesus never justified sin or the idea that He must sin again, then we are to have the same mind that He had, as well. That’s what your not getting.

How can we confess our sins if we have none?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You are not answering the points to which are in the posts that you are responding to. It is the Law of sin. Not the law of sin and death. Two things not one. Death isn’t mentioned until verse 24. Verse 21 states the law that Paul found is that when he would do good evil is present. This stated by the word that. He says that this law is another law in verse 23 and it wars against the law of God which is in his mind and it brings him into captivity to this law of sin in his members and then cries out who will deliver him from this body of death that law of sin is keeping him in captivity. Verse 8:2 states we are delivered from both the law of sin and death. Verse 4 states that this done so that the righteousness of the law be fulfilled in us. This connects us back to Verse 6: 1-8. Which is the prelude to chapter 7.

Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

No. Romans 7:6 is in reference to how the oldness of the letter is the Torah. It cannot be the Law that enslaves to sin in Romans 7:23.
Oldness of the letter is a clear reference to the Torah. Oldness of the letter is clearly not the Law of Enslavement to Sin in Romans 7:23. Romans 7:1 says he speaks to those who know the Law (Torah).

Romans 8:2 says the keeping of the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus makes us free from the Law of Sin and Death.
This Law of Sin and Death has to be the Torah because….
Romans 8:3 quickly picks up to talking about the Torah when it says, “For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh,…”. In order for Romans 8:2 to be talking about how the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus sets us free from the Law of enslavement in Romans 7:23, then Paul would have to continue to keep talking about this Law in Romans 8:3 and if that is the case, then it would not make any sense. The Law of Enslavement in Romans 7:23 was never a law that was intended to be obeyed as the word “law” in Romans 8:3 suggests.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You went from a couple sentences to a couple paragraphs if I am not mistaken. That is an issue if that is what you did. Whether you or I see it as issue or not. And no We don’t make the rules but we will respond and do as we see fit as you said.

Again, I don’t see a problem in updating our posts if we are seeking to make them better and more clear. I see the writing of posts as one would write an article. Surely it is not wrong to update and perfect a Christian article anymore than it is to do so with a post on a forum. I see them as a similar thing. It appears it violates a personal rule for you but I am not constrained by your personal beliefs. There is no hidden nefarious agenda in my updating my posts with more good content and or in re-writing it in a way that is more clear.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How can we confess our sins if we have none?

To quote a fellow Christian,

”The error in your reasoning is that it fails to account for differences that occur over time. The state of a particular man at time A does not necessitate that he be in that same state at time B. John Doe may not be keeping all of our Lord's commandments today, but tomorrow it is possible for him, by the grace of God.” ~ Swag365 (Source).​

In other words, do you still drink only milk like when you were a baby (Whereby you could not have solid food)? So to reason that is how you must be your whole life does not necessitate how you will always be that way. So confession of sin is something a believer will do in the early years (and possibly the mid years) of their faith before they completely mature in perfection and ween themselves to a point in being a slave to righteousness. Yep. Romans 6 talks about how you are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. One is either one or the other.

The devil was said to be perfect in all his ways until iniquity was found within him.
So even if one was perfect, it does not mean they cannot choose to walk away from God.
I believe Christians must go through a Sanctification Process of the Holy Spirit as a part of their growth in overcoming sin eventually in this life and being perfect. Are all Christians who are in the Sanctification Process “perfect” now? No. But they can be If they persevere in the faith with God’s help and power. 2 Corinthians 7:1 says let us cleanse ourselves from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit PERFECTING holiness in the fear of God. So it’s a perfecting of holiness to the end goal of being perfect at some point in this life. The goal is to not to stumble or fall. There are ways not to stumble as a Christian. 1 John 2:10 says if you love your brother there will be nothing on the inside of you that will make you stumble. So you could still sin of your free will choice, but you will not be controlled by sin if you are loving your brother (by helping in need, etcetera). In 2 Peter 1:5-11, there are certain things we add to our faith that if we have these things in abundance, we will not stumble or fall and an entrance will be abundantly be ministered to us to the everlasting Kingdom. This is also how you make your call and election sure, as well. But these are verses that many in your type of belief do not truly believe. You don’t believe adding to your faith certain things is tied to not falling and entering the Kingdom.