Is believing/faith a work ?

[Ernest T. Bass]

Continued from post 663

Commandment Exposes Righteousness and Wickedness - Not Inherent Capability Conveyance​

This all relates as to why Paul didn't write that he'd just choose to stop coveting, instead Paul indicates that he became aware of his sinfulness through the commandment. Here is that which Paul wrote:

"I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET." (Romans 7:7).

"sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind" (Romans 7:8).

"where sin abounded, grace did much more abound" (Romans 5:20).

"the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation" (Romans 1:16).

"How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?" (Romans 10:14).

Behold, the Word of God is conveyed via communication AND the gospel, the good news, the Word of God is the power of God for salvation!

A practical example from Scripture is the account of Cain and Abel.

"Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will not [your countenance] be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it." (Genesis 4:6-7)

God did not say that Cain "could" do anything.

The conditional logic statement does not indicate ability for Cain, rather the conditional logic statement indicates an action.

We know that Cain's action was to "not do well" because it is written "Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him" (Genesis 4:8).

Action. Not choice. Not decision. But action is written.

With respect to the Law, the commandments, the Apostle Peter said "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?" (Acts 15:10), so people are incapable of keeping the commandments to God's satisfaction (James 2:10); furthermore, the Word states "And I also, I have given to them statutes not good, and judgments by which they do not live" (Ezekiel 20:25) of the Israelites, so clearly the apostle is in accord with God.

The apostles tell us that the Law is for our instruction, and that we know what sin is because of the Law, and we are guilty before God apart from our Savior.

A Biblical Declaration Of Ability And Inability - Capability Examined​

Lord Jesus declares "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

The first clause decisively declares that men cannot choose Jesus; in other words, men do not have the ability to accept Jesus. The first clause is "you did not choose Me".

The second clause absolutely declares that God chooses men. The second clause is "but I chose you", and this unto salvation as well for Jesus also said "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19); in other words, God has the exclusive ability to accept men.

Commands Expose Good And Evil - Not Inherent Capability Conveyance - A Hypothetical Example​

A hypothetical example, on Monday evening you take your lovely wife a hot bowl of delicious oatmeal while she's sitting on the couch, and she places the bowl on a pillow on her lap. Then your talking and toddling son sees the bowl of delicous oatmeal, and he wants some, so he shoots across the floor to the couch, and he excitedly grabs the rim of the hot bowl letting out a shrieking scream of pain from the hot bowl.

After applying soothing cream to the wound, both you and your wife explain the difference between hot and cold. You explain that hot can cause burns and pain. "Do not touch hot things" you command your son.

You continue by declaring "Your mommy and I can work around hot things to prepare and serve food, but you cannot, my love". The sobbing stops, and you all eat your dinner.

On Tuesday morning, you have the iron skillet on the stove, the gas fire keeping the iron skillet sizzling hot for a family pancake breakfast. The top of the stove radiates very HOT too, so you are sensitive to your son's current absence from the kitchen.

Your son toddles into the kitchen. You say "honey, the stove is hot, hotter than the bowl of oatmeal last night. If you touch the stove, then you'll get burned again. If you stay over there, then you'll be just fine." Then you smell that the pancake is about to burn unless you flip it, so you scrape the pancake, raise it, flip it, and you watch it drop - but as it drops, you see your precious son's hand grasp the extremely hot stove iron grill flame cover. In a flash, you dunk your excruciatingly pained and screaming child's hand in a glass of cold water, add ice, turn off the stove, examine the wound through the glass, and ...

The morals of the story:

1. Monday night's command did not convey ability. The command expressed safe action - or said another way safe inaction.
2. Monday night's declaration conveyed capabilities being that you could work around hot items while your son could not work around hot items. It is crucial to discern the exclusive nature of the declarative; one party can do something while the other party cannot do the same thing.
3. Tuesday morning's IF/THEN logic conditionals did not convey ability. Each conditional expressed the results of actions.
4. You cared deeply enough to help.
5. Your son was driven by his desires - his lusts, and he disregarded your instruction; in other words, his lusts were manifest by his action.
6. Your son's nature was to defy you despite (1) the command, (2) the declaration, and (3) the conditionals; in other words, the fruit of his nature were visible.
7. Your son was in rebellion against you.

Point 2 is a parallel - a remote shadow at best, to when the Lord Jesus' says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16, also John 15:13-15 about love and friends). It is crucial to discern the exclusive nature of the declarative; one party can do something while the other party cannot do the same thing; in other words, men cannot choose God while God chooses men.

Point 4 is analagous, a shadow at best, to how the Father in heaven causes the "sun to rise on [the] evil and [the] good, and sends rain on [the] righteous and [the] unrighteous" (Matthew 5:45).

Points 5 and 6 are analagous to the sin nature as default nature (the main document of this essay contains more detail about the nature of man).

The example is concluded.

Commands do not convey ability; rather, commands expose the desires of the person, more specifically the heart of the person.

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Return to main essay "Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor"

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you...the CONTEXT is Jesus speaking to His Apostles who He chose for that office, those men did not choose themselves to the office of an Apostle. It has nothing at all to do with how men are saved..nothing.

You hypothetical example proves nothing. Adults do have the ability and have learned right from wrong therefore have accountability to God, not infants (Isa 7:15-16).

Biblical example Matt 21:
But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

The Son was commanded to go work in the vineyard, he was able to disobey that command. But then he was able to repent and obey that command. The command implies accountability for he had to repent for his disobedience to the command. The command implies ability for he was able to obey and go work in the vineyard.

Nowhere does the Bible teach man is boren with a totally depraved natute or a sin nature. For if such were true, then it would make God evil and sadistic in condemning man for how man is innately born. It would be insane, cruel, evil to command a person to walk who was born without legs, then condemned that person for not walking. Calvinism is pure insanity!!

 

[CadyandZoe]

Believing is a work, Paul knows that. Its something done.

Paul's focus is on the distinction between ritual practice, which he calls "works of the law" and trusting God, which he calls "faith" which is also part of the law. Believing a truth claim is not a ritual practice.

 

[brightfame52]

It's a work if you believe it, to the end; unfinished faith, is not a work.

Believing is a work, best believe it friend.

 

[brightfame52]

Paul's focus is on the distinction between ritual practice, which he calls "works of the law" and trusting God, which he calls "faith" which is also part of the law. Believing a truth claim is not a ritual practice.

Believing is a work ! And if one conditions their salvation on their act of believing, they are conditioning their salvation on good works done by them, may as well keep the whole law for salvation because they have denied Grace.

 

[marks]

The works are all the more reason to believe we are saved, but they can't substitute our salvation.

Agreed!!

Something I've come to, If you aren't different, why would you think you've been reborn?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes believing is a work, no scripture says that believing isnt a work, because its something done.

Do you see how faith and works are contrasted in these passages?

We are saved by grace through faith and not by works. If faith were a work, he couldn't say, not by works. He'd have to say something like, saved by grace through our work of faith, but not denying works as the means of salvation entirely.

I see the same thing in several places in Romans 4, here is one,

Romans 4:5 KJV
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Working is one thing, and believing is another.

Much love!

 

[Rightglory]

Commands imply both ability and accountability. It would be nothing but evil and saditic on God's part to command of man something impossible then eternally condemned man for not doing the impossible. In the OT we have an example of an evil king called Pharaoh who took from the Israelites the materials required to make brick but no reduction in bricks made (Ex 5:15-16). God' character is not such as the evil Pharaoh. It is simply SENSELESS for God to command a person to do the impossible as it would be EQUALLY SENSLESS for an employer to require an employee to life a 8 ton truck using nothing but his own strength. The employer would be considered insane, sensless, evilto require such by men and so would God to command such SENSELESS things

If man has no free will then the only conclusion can be an evil, sadistic god.

Joshua 24:15 men do have the ability to choose God.

A Calvinist Profess Wayne Grudem wrote:
"In Spite of All of the Foregoing Statements, We Have to Come to the Point Where We Confess That We Do Not Understand How It Is That God Can Ordain That We Carry Out Evil Deeds and Yet Hold Us Accountable for Them and Not be Blamed Himself: We can affirm that all of these things are true, because Scripture teaches them. But Scripture does not tell us exactly how God brings this situation about or how it can be that God holds us accountable for what he ordains to come to pass. Here Scripture is silent, and we have to agree with Berkhof that ultimately “the problem of God’s relation to sin remains a mystery" (Systematic Theology, p.331.)

The errors of Calvinism creates problems that do not even exist. If God caused, ordained a person to sin then God does have culpability in that person sinning. No way around that.

Once again, very good. Some men just need to build a theory that makes God culpable and man has no liability or consequences for his actions, good or evil. It's one of those warm fuzzy feelings some men get to justify their actions and blame God.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Believing is a work ! And if one conditions their salvation on their act of believing, they are conditioning their salvation on good works done by them, may as well keep the whole law for salvation because they have denied Grace.

So you disagree with Paul then?

 

[brightfame52]

marks

Do you see how faith and works are contrasted in these passages?

Yes and I have discussed that. Nevertheless believing is a work, something done. If you condition your salvation on doing it , then you advocate salvation by works, may as well try to keep all the commandments to get saved.

 

[brightfame52]

So you disagree with Paul then?

Nope, if anyone does its you who disagrees with Paul, Paul doesnt condition his salvation on his act of believing, but Im afraid you do

 

[marks]

marks



Yes and I have discussed that. Nevertheless believing is a work, something done. If you condition your salvation on doing it , then you advocate salvation by works, may as well try to keep all the commandments to get saved.

Do you mean, condition your salvation on "continued believing"?

My view is that when we believe in Jesus, the Biblical believing, that God gives us new birth, and we are forever His children. We don't maintain that state of rebirth IF we continue to believe, and lose it if we "stop believing".

Are we on the same page?

Much love!

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

A person's works are his own works whether those works be sinful, unrighteous works or obedient, righteous works. On judgment day each person will have to own up to and answer for the type of works they did in this life. Rom 2:6 "Who will render to every man according to his deeds:" Where one will be at in eternity will be determined by the type of deeds that person did in this life. On judgment day God will hand out a sentence that fits the type of deeds a person did in this life. Those who did unrighteousness deeds will get the sentence 'depart from Me I never knew you' (Mt 7:23) and those with righteous deeds will hear 'well done...enter into the joy of thy Lord' (Mt 25:21).

So how can some on this forum argue works have nothing to do with becoming saved or remaining saved when works are the very basis that determines if one will be lost or saved?

That's the way that a carnal would only see such, because he does not know the Holy Spirit in fact, he may know of spirits but not the Holy Spirit in fact, for he would understand what is truly at hand in fact.

A carnal man says, Look what I have did ?
A Truly Saved born again man says look what Christ Jesus did for me and so I will abide in him ! Such is not of ones works, but Christ Jesus within him ?

A carnal man may want a song played at his funeral, Like, I did it my way ! well a Christian would never have such a curse played at a Funeral in fact. Because they are not giving themselves the Glory ! but for Christ in them that they give any Glory ?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

That's the way that a carnal would only see such, because he does not know the Holy Spirit in fact, he may know of spirits but not the Holy Spirit in fact, for he would understand what is truly at hand in fact.

A carnal man says, Look what I have did ?
A Truly Saved born again man says look what Christ Jesus did for me and so I will abide in him ! Such is not of ones works, but Christ Jesus within him ?

A carnal man may want a song played at his funeral, Like, I did it my way ! well a Christian would never have such a curse played at a Funeral in fact. Because they are not giving themselves the Glory ! but for Christ in them that they give any Glory ?

What I posted was from the Bible in that the type of work (righteous or unrighteous) a person does in this life will be the very basis for the eternal sentence one receives from God on judgment day.

There are many just on this forum who claim to "know the Holy Spirit" and yet post many things contradictory to the Holy Spirit's written word all the while contradicting each other on just about any topic you can think of.

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Rom 3:28
"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Some people misquote this verse as "We are justified by faith apart from works" in an attempt to eliminate any and all works from becoming saved,


In CONTEXT the works/deeds Paul has under consideration that do not justify was the perfect flawless works required by the OT law that was given to the Jews to keep, verse 2. The Jews could not keep the OT law perfectly therefore could not be justified by that OT law therefore were no better than the Gentiles, v9. Yet in v21 Paul shows that NOW there is another way apart from the work of perfect, flawless law keeping whereby one can be made righreous and that is by an obedient faith. And in v28 Paul is making that distinction by NOW being justified by faith apart from/without the deeds of perfect flawless law keeping required of the OT law. Paul nowhere ever eliminated obedience to God from being justified by God and the only work eliminated in ROm 3 is the work of perfect flawless law keeping.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Nope, if anyone does its you who disagrees with Paul, Paul doesnt condition his salvation on his act of believing, but Im afraid you do

You make communication difficult or impossible, because you have decided that words can mean whatever you want them to mean. For the rest of us, "work" is a physical activity. Whereas, "faith" is what our minds and hearts deliver. To claim that a physical activity is a mental process is confusion.

 

[HIM]

no...believing/faith - is having a devine revelation of what is true.

Hebrews 11
11 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the people of old received their commendation. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible

Belief/faith is not a doing word [an action] it is a receiving word [believing/accepting something to be true]

The word in the heart and mouth through Christ. God's laws in the heart and mind that we may do it. For it is He that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure.

 

[brightfame52]

Believing is a work because its something we do Rom 10:9

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Believe here is in the active voice which:

Represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, "Jesus returned to Capernaum" Jesus performs the action.

Again a work by definition, the greek word ergon:

1. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
2. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Also To believe is a work of mental ability of the mind and ; the understanding, and the will, conscience and affections. Paul wrote of receiving the Love of the Truth 2 Thess 2:10

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

So If I say I'm saved because I believed, God saved me because I performed that action, that's Salvation by my works, even if we count it as a work of righteousness, what does Titus 3:5 say

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;32

 

[brightfame52]

Do you mean, condition your salvation on "continued believing"?

My view is that when we believe in Jesus, the Biblical believing, that God gives us new birth, and we are forever His children. We don't maintain that state of rebirth IF we continue to believe, and lose it if we "stop believing".

Are we on the same page?

Much love!

It should not be difficult to understand what I mean, again if you condition your salvation on anything you did or are doing , or will do, its a denial of grace Salvation and advocating works salvation. See Salvation from A to Z from eternity to eternity is 1000% conditioned Soley on Gods Grace, on what God does, has does, and will do ! Now are we on the same page ?

 

[brightfame52]

You make communication difficult or impossible, because you have decided that words can mean whatever you want them to mean. For the rest of us, "work" is a physical activity. Whereas, "faith" is what our minds and hearts deliver. To claim that a physical activity is a mental process is confusion.

Work can be a spiritual activity, believing by Grace is a mental activity but its grounded in having Spiritual life. So you are confused if you think work is confined to just mere physical activity. See God gives New Hearts and Minds guided by the Spirit so in order to act Ezk 36:26-27

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Heb 8:10

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

 

[Rightglory]

What I posted was from the Bible in that the type of work (righteous or unrighteous) a person does in this life will be the very basis for the eternal sentence one receives from God on judgment day.

There are many just on this forum who claim to "know the Holy Spirit" and yet post many things contradictory to the Holy Spirit's written word all the while contradicting each other on just about any topic you can think of.

---------------------


Rom 3:28
"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Some people misquote this verse as "We are justified by faith apart from works" in an attempt to eliminate any and all works from becoming saved,


In CONTEXT the works/deeds Paul has under consideration that do not justify was the perfect flawless works required by the OT law that was given to the Jews to keep, verse 2. The Jews could not keep the OT law perfectly therefore could not be justified by that OT law therefore were no better than the Gentiles, v9. Yet in v21 Paul shows that NOW there is another way apart from the work of perfect, flawless law keeping whereby one can be made righreous and that is by an obedient faith. And in v28 Paul is making that distinction by NOW being justified by faith apart from/without the deeds of perfect flawless law keeping required of the OT law. Paul nowhere ever eliminated obedience to God from being justified by God and the only work eliminated in ROm 3 is the work of perfect flawless law keeping.

A very good point. Also, added to that, being justified by faith does not save anyone. It gets one through the door. Justify means to make right. By believing/faith we make ourselves right with God. We are being saved THROUGH that faith. It is all works. works of faith. Peter makes that very clear in James 1:20-25. This was true even in the OT.

 

[marks]

Nope, if anyone does its you who disagrees with Paul, Paul doesnt condition his salvation on his act of believing, but Im afraid you do

John 1:12-13 KJV
12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

"received Him", this is in the active voice, so it is something the "receiver" does. "Believe in Him" is also active voice.

We believe, we receive, and God gives us new birth. That is the saying of Scripture.

Much love!