Dealing with : The Body of Sin

[Behold]

Nah... you like many, only try to HIDE what Apostle Paul taught in Romans 7 about the "law of sin" he said that is in our FLESHY MEMBERS.

Its your "fleshy members" and your carnal mind that has not understood God Grace. @Davy

Let me show you a reality....

A sinner, unforgiven, ......sins, and sins again.......and enjoys it.

A Carnal Christian.....sins, and confesses it, and feels guilty., and repeats it.

That's you according to your posts.
See yourself? @Davy ?
We do.

See, , the only difference is that the Chrisitan feels guilty and confesses it., whereas the unsaved sinner does not feel guity and does not confess it.

See the issue?
See the problem?
The issue is, that God didn't create Salvation so that you can live the unbelievers life of sin, and the only difference is, you feel guilty and confess it and the hell bound sinner doesn't.
So, that is your failed Discipleship, that is completely based on the fact that you know nothing about The Cross of Christ or Paul's Theology.
See, what you are promoting as your failed discipleship theology....has nothing. do with Real Christianity or Paul's Doctrine.

Listen little one........God didnt send Jesus to die for us, to keep us sinning and confessing and repenting.
Do you comprehend ?
He Sent Jesus so that by Jesus's Sacrifice we can be made free from sin, and have Victory over the world, the flesh, and the devil, constantly.
You dont have this yet., and that is why you want to tell us about your sinning, issues.
I personally blame your church, or your heretic's commentaries, for teaching you how not to understand God's Grace. @Davy .

 

[Davy]

Before I read any further in your post, please give me the address of the text I underlined. I have never read a verse like that regarding a born again Christian. It sounded more like the Jews under the law before Christ to me. Thanks.

I ALREADY posted the relevant Romans 7 Scripture for you in my above post #72. It's up to you to check it out, or not, your choice.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I ALREADY posted the relevant Romans 7 Scripture for you in my above post #72. It's up to you to check it out, or not, your choice.

Thanks for directing me to #72

Understanding Paul in Romans 7 about the "law of sin" in our fleshy members he said, caused Paul to claim a sense of hopelessness in this present life because of it until he mentions how Lord Jesus' sacrifice has freed us from sin for those who believe, but in the 'spiritual sense', not in the flesh sense. Our flesh body is still... subject to the "law of sin" like Apostle Paul taught there, and always will be.

Rom 7:18-25
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
KJV


Davy, Romans 7:14-25 is all about the Mosaic law that neither Paul nor any of us who are born again are under. The reborn are "not in the flesh" Romans 8:9, and that applies to Paul too.

It is interesting that I just found out that JW's are only free from sin when they themselves die for their own sin. Is that your background also to think this way?

 

[Davy]

BRETHREN IN CHRIST:

Look at what Apostle Paul taught about our FLESH and the "law of sin"....

Rom 7
7 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to Him Who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Paul uses the Old Testament law that death of one spouse ends an earthly marriage between them. He uses that idea for those in Christ, that we are RECKON ourselves "dead to the law by the body of Christ" by being married to Christ, and to one another.

Nevertheless, later in Galatians 5, Paul also taught that we in Christ are dead to the law ONLY IF... we walk by The Spirit. Thus true Biblical understanding comes from grasping the Whole LOAF of BREAD, and not just fragments of it. We cannot forget what Paul also taught in that Galatians 5 Scripture. For those who have yet to study Gal.5, I recommend going there and study it before continuing this, for it sets a CONDITION for the above Romans 7:4 "dead to the law" to be true.


5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

What's that "members" there? Paul is pointing to our FLESH, not our 'humanity' which is a popular philosophical replacement word used today to get away from Paul actually pointing to our flesh body here in this Chapter.

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Once again, only IF... we walk by The Spirit, are we dead to the law. Per Galatians 5 Paul explains this with saying by walking by The Spirit we become dead to the law, because in The Spirit there is no law against.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, 'Thou shalt not covet.'

By the law is the recognition of sin. Apostle John defined sin as the transgression of the law, and that's a New Covenant Doctrine (1 John 3:4). Per 1 Timothy 1, 1 Corinthians 6, and Galatians 5, Apostle Paul showed how the law is good, and was not made for the righteous, but for the sinner, the ungodly, and those who do those things he listed shall not enter into the Kingdom of God. And that also is a New Covenant Doctrine.

Shouldn't all that... make the true Christian suspicious of those preachers who try to claim that under Christ the law is now dead with NO CONDITION? Paul gave a condition, it's called walking by The Spirit in Galatians 5. The opposite is instead to walk by our flesh, and thus be subject to the law again.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Where there is no law, there is no sin, is essentially what Paul is saying above. Paul in Romans 4:15 also uses this concept, that where no law is, there is no transgression.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Paul says the above because the law was made to point to unrighteousness, to recognize sin. Per 1 John 3:8, John said the devil sinned from the beginning, pointing to Satan's original first sin in rebellion with coveting God's throne (Ezek.28; Isaiah 14). Per Hebrews 2, the power of death was thus assigned to Satan. Therefore, God's law is good because it points to what is sin, and by that we understand the opposite, which is righteousness. That is why Paul calls the law and commandment "holy, and just, and good", in that sense.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The law is good because it points to righteousness, to Christ. The first five Books of The Bible is called the Torah, and that word means to point like an arrow; pointing to Christ Who was to come and release us from bondage of the law by His death and resurrection, and by our walking by The Holy Spirit. Many leave out that last part about walking by The Spirit when they should not.

What part of us is "carnal, sold under sin" that Paul says above? Our flesh especially. But if one's spirit is following Satan's spirit, it too is sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

The battle Paul recognized is the fight between our flesh and our spirit. We ALL... want to do what is right, but at times find ourselves doing just the opposite. This still applies to all BELIEVERS on Jesus Christ, and will continue until the day our flesh dies, or the day when Jesus returns. It is caused by the FLESHY desires and wants which are of this world.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

By recognizing that we sometimes do that which we don't want, we admit that the law is good because it shows us what is right, like John said, sin is the transgression of the law.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Sin that dwelleth where?? In our FLESH.

Remember, Paul said the law is "spiritual" and "good", and a little later here he will claim that he delights in the law of God after the INWARD MAN, meaning his spirit inside his flesh.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

By that above Paul is emphatic that he is pointing to our FLESH BODY as the main cause of all this. The KJV translators had no problem bringing that proper translation forth into English from the Greek word for flesh, carnality.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

It is sin that dwelleth where? In his FLESH. That's where Paul was pointing this to, and he is revealing it involves a law governing sin and evil. Yet what part of our being is Paul pointing to that delights in the law of God after the inward man? Our spirit in Christ Jesus. God's law is spiritual, remember? Our spirit wants to keep and follow God's laws. But our FLESH often gets in the way of our being able to do that.

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
KJV

Again, by "members" Paul means our FLESH BODY. It causes most of our sins. It is worldly, has wordly needs and wants and desires, some which are not healthy physically nor spiritually. Our FLESH thus is subject to the "law of sin". But our "mind" desires to serve the law of God, what God shows is righteousness.

So HOW... can Paul say something like with the mind he will serve the law of God, but with his flesh serve the law of sin? Can we do both at the same time? NO! of course not. WHO can save us from this "body of death"??

Only Lord Jesus Christ can save us by His Sacrifice on the cross for those who believe. And that is to our 'spirit', not to our FLESH.

Therefore, strikeout those who believe in a FLESHY resurrection, there is no such thing. Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 the body type of the future resurrection is a "spiritual body", not another flesh body. Our spirit with soul is what is saved, not our FLESH.

 

[Davy]

Davy, Romans 7:14-25 is all about the Mosaic law that neither Paul nor any of us who are born again are under. The reborn are "not in the flesh" Romans 8:9, and that applies to Paul too.

It is interesting that I just found out that JW's are only free from sin when they themselves die for their own sin. Is that your background also to think this way?

Firstly, I definitely am NOT a Jehovah's Witness, nor am I Jewish. I am non-denominational, but I was raised in a mainstream Protestant Church in the USA.

Paul is pointing to God's laws which will NEVER go away, which is why he compared the law there as being 'spiritual', and when he said "the law of God after the inward man." By that it is obvious that he was NOT pointing to the old covenant rituals, and handwriting of ordinances which Lord Jesus nailed to His cross.

Lord Jesus DID NOT NAIL all of God's laws to His cross. What Paul covered in 1 Timothy 1, 1 Corinthians 6, and Galatians 5 is proof of this. And it appears that you may yet need to cover those New Testament Scriptures by Paul. Especially check out the Galatians 5 Chapter about the difference between walking by The Spirit vs. walking by the flesh.

 

[PS95]

Jesus teaches the opposite.
He teaches that if you dont place your trust in Him, then "you shall die IN your sins".

Intetesting that a verse that so reveals the JW teaching as false, is apparently never read by JW's.
But on the other hand, they probably have a nice false answer waiting for anyone who shows them that verse.

They attribute "you shall die in your sins" to the Pharisees and those like them. Why? They didn't believe He was messiah,

JWs have a lot of doublespeak and changing teachings- and most can not be trusted to reveal their real teachings. They use word games. Such as "Jesus dies for our sins".. Their language means different things to them. They have their own skewed lingo.
it's truly a mess. The NT is pretty much entirely beyond them. They only know certain verses.- that's it. The reason is that they are taught that most of the NT is not for them - it is only for their elect.
My advise to all- if you don't know what they teach very well- avoid them.

 

[PS95]

I have just gone by that one conversation with that JW and have accepted them as "not a cult." But what you are telling here has CULT written all over it.

It is absolutely a cult. But I know what you mean and that is the deception at play. Since they know I know what they do teach I am shunned by the resident JW on here- Aunty Jane.
They will withhold things from you on purpose. It is how it is.

 

[Behold]

They attribute "you shall die in your sins" to the Pharisees and those like them. Why? They didn't believe He was messiah,

You dont have to be a Pharisee to be an unbeliever.
Ask any athiest or scientologist.

JWs have a lot of doublespeak and changing teachings-

There is a member here......a very LOUD and very devout JW..........."AuntyJane"

Have you tried to help her find her way out of this mind Cult?
She needs help, and as you've been there, yourself, you would have all the answers regarding all of her crazy JW theology.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

By that it is obvious that he was NOT pointing to the old covenant rituals, and handwriting of ordinances which Lord Jesus nailed to His cross.

Hi Davy, I hope you agree that the Ten Commandments are not old covenant rituals or ordinances. Romans 7 is not speaking of your rituals and ordances. See Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

Isn't that the 10th commandment?

Have you ever read 2 Corinthians 3:2-11? It shows what the Old Covenant is. I like to lengthen passages to include verses that contain key phrases for context and clarity.

2 Corinthians 3:2-11
2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.
4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

 

[PS95]

You dont have to be a Pharisee to be an unbeliever.
Ask any athiest or scientologist.

Agree and so would they. There are many kinds of unbelievers. I would rather talk with an unbeliever than those who claim to be Christians but are deceivers.

There is a member here......a very LOUD and very devout JW..........."AuntyJane"

I am well aware..

Have you tried to help her find her way out of this mind Cult?
She needs help, and as you've been there, yourself, you would have all the answers regarding all of her crazy JW theology.

Sure I have and I still do try at times- However, as soon as she learned that I am shunned by my JW family- she announced her shunning of me on this forum.
I was not baptized as JW, so I should not be technically shunned. I've even started threads just for her- she ignores them.
BUT they refer to me as an opposer since, I do oppose what they teach- While many also oppose what they teach- they see you as a possible convert so they will talk to you.- because you are not privy to what they really do teach. You only know some things.

But with me- since I know what they really teach but tend to hide and I expose it- I am a threat to them. It is just how it always is with them.
The thread where she shunned me was about-
JWS dying to pay for their own sins--I have started several about that after that one... this was last summer- she still shuns me. I don't want to gossip about her- but she is a very deceptive person in the way she uses her words- most Jws do that but not all do. Jane is a master at it. She will say Jesus died to pay for the sins of the world- but she means only Adam's sin-- not our personal sins. It is a fight to get her to admit her physical death is what she teaches is paying for her sins---- but she has admitted it in several places.

No one notices-- and instead they engage her on her pet topics like hellfire and the trinity. The best thing to do with Jws is do not debate those- it is what they want- their heels are dug in and nothing you can say will change that.-
Rejection of trinity and hellfire are NOT UNIQUE to JWs. Those thread go endless with all sorts of people chiming in.- goes nowhere.
Instead go for the JUGULAR with the JW lesser known blatant errors- there are so many lies that are easily shown false- they hate discussing those and will BAIT you to the trinity and hellfire. That is what they ALL DO- divert divert divert- Never take the bait- bring them back to YOUR topic. Everyone who truly understands the Jw religion knows this- but it is VERY hard to get people to listen.

Here is Jane's shunning announcement of me--

Q for JW- KIEW?

Hi Kiew, you've stated this a couple of times now on another thread-- "Romans 6:7-Acquitted of all sin at death. The judgement God gave to all men=The wages of sin = death. Once dead have paid in full the wages of sin. Gods pure justice could not rejudge one on past sins once they died and paid...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You dont have to be a Pharisee to be an unbeliever.
Ask any athiest or scientologist.



There is a member here......a very LOUD and very devout JW..........."AuntyJane"

Have you tried to help her find her way out of this mind Cult?
She needs help, and as you've been there, yourself, you would have all the answers regarding all of her crazy JW theology.

As I recall, AuntyJane is a teacher of some sort, and very smart.

Guys, I still haven't finished responding to the long posts of you, Behold, but I'm sick to my stomach right now and think I'm going to go rest. Hopefully, can finish tomorrow. I do have a prescription for it that I've taken since I was 14 years old.

I'm enjoying our conversation. You make me think, and I hope I do the same for you.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

They attribute "you shall die in your sins" to the Pharisees and those like them. Why? They didn't believe He was messiah,

You answered your own question. Read 1 John 2:23

Hey, are you my brother or my sister?

 

[Davy]

Hi Davy, I hope you agree that the Ten Commandments are not old covenant rituals or ordinances.

That's right, I don't. Much of God's law is still in effect for today. The Ten Commandments involves commandments that are for both civil living and spiritual living with God.

Romans 7 is not speaking of your rituals and ordances. See Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

I NEVER said Paul was speaking of the 'old covenant' with Romans 7. God's law involves 4 parts. Jesus nailed the handwriting of ordinances to His cross, not God's law which Apostle Paul taught as part of Christian Doctrine in 1 Timothy 1, 1 Corinthians 6, and Galatians 5.

So it is apparent you have yet to understand that, and should take my advice and study those 1 Timothy 1, 1 Cor.6, and Gal.5 Scriptures where Apostle Paul teaches proper Christian Doctrine about God's laws which are... still in effect today for the sinner and ungodly.

 

[PS95]

As I recall, AuntyJane is a teacher of some sort, and very smart.

Guys, I still haven't finished responding to the long posts of you, Behold, but I'm sick to my stomach right now and think I'm going to go rest. Hopefully, can finish tomorrow. I do have a prescription for it that I've taken since I was 14 years old.

I'm enjoying our conversation. You make me think, and I hope I do the same for you.

Aunty is book smart. All JWs think of themselves as "teachers" which is why they go door to door and come to these forums- to covert you with their superior "accurate knowledge".
On the surface that can appear impressive--
However, if you really understand what they teach- you see that they have no concept of the NT.

You answered your own question. Read 1 John 2:23

Hey, are you my brother or my sister?

Did I have a question? lol

1 John 1:23-- was one of the first verses that began to open my eyes that I had been duped by Jws. They do Not believe that. They believe you must know the Father in order to know the son. --arse backwards..

Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

I am your sister

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Aunty is book smart. All JWs think of themselves as "teachers" which is why they go door to door and come to these forums- to covert you with their superior "accurate knowledge".
On the surface that can appear impressive--
However, if you really understand what they teach- you see that they have no concept of the NT.


Did I have a question? lol

1 John 1:23-- was one of the first verses that began to open my eyes that I had been duped by Jws. They do Not believe that. They believe you must know the Father in order to know the son. --arse backwards..

Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

I am your sister

SISTER!!!

 

[PS95]

I hope you read and understand all this:

Don't let man's 'religiosity' fool you. As long as you are in a flesh body you will... continue to have future sin. See what Apostle Paul taught about that per Romans 7 involving the "law of sin". Our hope in Christ is that it is small sins that are forgiven, and not sin unto death...

1 John 5:16-17
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
KJV
Even when we may have a thought of revenge against someone who does us wrong, without taking any physical action against the person, the thought of wanting revenge in itself is unrighteousness; it is a sin, but not a sin unto death.

Rom 7:18-25
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
KJV
We are to strive... to be 'perfect', but that never means our flesh can actually become perfect, because our flesh is subject to the "law of sin", and we, our real person, our soul with spirit, is only... released from our flesh and that "law of sin" at death of our flesh, or at the change to our spiritual body at the last trump when Lord Jesus returns. That is why Apostle Paul said in Romans 6:7 that one who is dead is freed from sin.

hi Davy,
I agree with much of this, but I have 2 thoughts~ one is just my thoughts- the other is a bigger deal

1. I think of it this way-- We always will fall unless we could always walk in the Spirit. That's a tall drink.. That's what I have found in my own life- when I am in the Spirit- I don't sin- God does keep us like John said!! I am praying, singing, praising , worshiping..
Trouble is, LIFE- the distractions of every day life takes our eyes off of Christ and in a flash we are in the flesh and as you said- a mean thought comes. The Spirit convicts me and if I can I confess it (agree with God) and I know I am forgiven, and I am grateful for realizing that I was moving in the wrong direction.. Sort of like a sheep heading towards the thicket where he gets stuck.. But the shepherd calls me back by the Spirit.
The point I am taking forever to make is that I think it could be possible to not sin, IF we could only master walking in the Spirit all of the time.. This is why we need to be in prayer without ceasing.. but who has mastered that one? There's an old hymn- I need thee- every hour I need thee.. Yeah I sure get that.
Do you think maybe that's what Paul had in mind when he spoke about his flesh/body of death? Meaning IF he could always walk in the spirit- but falls into walking in the flesh as we all do? Isn't that why he reminded us to pray without ceasing and focus on good things etc.. He was going through exactly what we do. He wanted to always walk in the spirit but it isn't possible. Does this make sense to you?

2) This one is about Ro 6:7
We are not acquitted of our sins at physical death. The word "freed" there means acquitted. Yes, the JWs think that means that their sins are acquitted when they die physically. That is incorrect. they have no need of forgiveness of sins since they are all acquitted when they die! That is terribly incorrect. Death does not make us sinless. That is what they teach. I know you don think all of that.
However, let me show you what this means- Ro 6:7 is only 1/7 of a sentence. Lets look at it context-
Romans 6:4-14--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin.
Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's really great isn't it?! Paul is referring to how we died (crucified) and were buried with Christ, and so now we walk in newness of life.. That is the death Paul is speaking to in verse 7. This phrase refers to the spiritual death that occurs when a believer is united with Christ in His death through baptism. In Greek Ro 6:7-strongs 1344 "freed" is dikaioó: To justify, to declare righteous, to acquit.<--- Our physical death can not do that.
This spiritual death is the forgiveness of our sins. - acquittal , made righteous/justified. We are freed from our sins when we die with Christ.
"So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed."-- comes to mind. Our sins are forgiven- we are acquitted= righteous

Notice that Paul again states twice more that we are "freed from sins." verses 18 and 22
Ro 6:18.--
"But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were entrusted, and after being freed from sin, you became slaves to righteousness."

Now that we have been "freed from sin" we become slaves to righteousness- we now have a changed heart /circumcised and walk in newness of life in the Spirit. Our hearts are changed and we see sin differently than we used to. It no longer rules over us like it used to. Now we have the power given to us to put the deeds of the flesh to death by the Spirit.

Ro 6:22
"But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life."

And here again he says we were freed from sin and we go onto sanctification which results in eternal life.

What is interesting is he used two different words for freed:
V7 is dikaioó: To justify, to declare righteous, to acquit to render just or innocent
V's18 & 22 is eleutheróō – , set free, release from bondage, to liberate

The reason for that is simple. We were acquitted of our sins when we accepted Christ.
After that, we were liberated released from the bondage of sins power over us--- by the Spirit.

I hope that was understandable. Many many seem to get this mixed up. It can be confusing.
I had to really zoom in on it having been raised a jw and taught all wrong.

 

[Davy]

hi Davy,
I agree with much of this, but I have 2 thoughts~ one is just my thoughts- the other is a bigger deal

1. I think of it this way-- We always will fall unless we could always walk in the Spirit. That's a tall drink.. That's what I have found in my own life- when I am in the Spirit- I don't sin- God does keep us like John said!! I am praying, singing, praising , worshiping..
Trouble is, LIFE- the distractions of every day life takes our eyes off of Christ and in a flash we are in the flesh and as you said- a mean thought comes. The Spirit convicts me and if I can I confess it (agree with God) and I know I am forgiven, and I am grateful for realizing that I was moving in the wrong direction.. Sort of like a sheep heading towards the thicket where he gets stuck.. But the shepherd calls me back by the Spirit.
The point I am taking forever to make is that I think it could be possible to not sin, IF we could only master walking in the Spirit all of the time.. This is why we need to be in prayer without ceasing.. but who has mastered that one? There's an old hymn- I need thee- every hour I need thee.. Yeah I sure get that.
Do you think maybe that's what Paul had in mind when he spoke about his flesh/body of death? Meaning IF he could always walk in the spirit- but falls into walking in the flesh as we all do? Isn't that why he reminded us to pray without ceasing and focus on good things etc.. He was going through exactly what we do. He wanted to always walk in the spirit but it isn't possible. Does this make sense to you?

The above simply proves that your mind realizes the imperfect state that we all are in per this present world time, being in the flesh. Paul said in Romans 3:23 that we have all sinned, and come short of the glory of God. If that were not so, then we would not need Salvation by Lord Jesus' Sacrifice on His cross. Paul even says in Galatians 3:22 that the Scripture has concluded all... under sin, so that the Promise by Faith of Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

That means, our Heavenly Father and His Son, especially Lord Jesus, well understands the plight we are in dwelling in a literal flesh body of imperfection, what Paul called a "body of death". I notice that many brethren are confused about the idea of the flesh mainly because of fleshy teachings from men's traditions instead teaching what God's Word actually reveals about it. Our flesh body is not the 'real' us. It is only a shell our soul with spirit lives in while alive here on earth during this present world. When our soul/spirit leaves our flesh, we will never, ever need it anymore. This is what The Bible actually teaches. Christ's Salvation is about the future body of incorruption, the "spiritual body", not another flesh body.

Thus understanding this matter requires that we remain within what God's Word teaches on the matter, and not men's traditions. One of the tradtions of the Jews about this is by their interpretation of Genesis 2:7 about God creating Adam; many of them believe that our 'soul' is actually part of our flesh body. It is not. Our soul is about our person, our Id, what makes each person an individual. It is attached to our spirit. And Jesus showed that at flesh death our soul continues on (Matt.10:28). In 2 Corinthians 5, Apostle Paul also showed this distinction between another body that we have, not made with hands, meaning non-material, eternal in the heavens. And that if our flesh body were suddenly dissolved, we still have that other body, which Paul was pointing to our spirit body and soul that is linked to our flesh body via the "silver cord" of Eccl.12:5-7.

You should grasp from what I showed above that this matter is a fact of God's creation, and not spiritual speculation. The above Scripture references are meant literally about our created makeup that God made us with, and how Christ's Salvation is a very literal matter involving the future glorious body state that Apostle Paul said that our spirit inside our flesh groans for (Romans 8:18-25).

2) This one is about Ro 6:7
We are not acquitted of our sins at physical death. The word "freed" there means acquitted. Yes, the JWs think that means that their sins are acquitted when they die physically. That is incorrect. they have no need of forgiveness of sins since they are all acquitted when they die! That is terribly incorrect. Death does not make us sinless. That is what they teach. I know you don think all of that.

Right, I don't believe what the JW believe. Yet Paul in Rom.6:7 isn't really going into the matter of sin without a flesh body.

Rom 6:6-7
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Paul was especially pointing to our flesh as the main cause of our sins, and especially so in the next Romans 7 Chapter. The "body of sin" to be destroyed Paul points to above is our flesh body. Our flesh is not part of Christ's future Salvation, and any thought that it is will only cause confusion. Our flesh body is only a vehicle for our soul/spirit while alive on earth during this present 2nd world earth age. In the future world to come, the "spiritual body" will be our vehicle, not our flesh body. A revelation, per 2 Cor.5 Paul showed that we already have that spirit body dwelling inside our flesh body shell.


Where is the Confusion Against This Written in God's Word Coming From?

It is coming from Satan's host of servants here on earth. They are the main ones who put their trust in their flesh, and in this world. We have been lied to about this present 2nd world earth age; their telling us today's creation is perfect when it is far... from perfect. And God said He placed this present 2nd world earth age in 'vanity' and 'bondage of corruption' (Rom.8:18-25; Jer.4:23-28). He did this because of Lucifer's original rebellion against Him. Apostle Paul in Romans 8 even says that the creation mourns today, and desires a release from the bondage it has been placed in, along with the future manifesting of the sons of God (i.e, Christ's Church at His coming). As a kid, I used to love watching Mutual of Omaha's TV program Wild Kingdom. It stressed animals in the wild in Africa and the survival of the fittest concept, as being natural and an example of God's perfect creation. In reality, per Isaiah 11, those kind of things in wild nature today will no longer happen. It's because God's original creation in the beginning, prior to Lucifer's rebellion, was... in a perfect condition, unlike today's creation. And God's original perfect creation state is what it is going to return to in His future Eternity of the new heavens and a new earth.

It's the Occultist, the Mystery Schools, Pagan religion from Lucifer, that teaches the LIE that we can achieve perfection during this present world time. Impossible, and Apostle Paul showed why in that Galatians 3:22 verse. The devil has been given to reign over today's earth during this present world (Luke 4); he has been given the power of death because his rebellion brought in the concept of evil, sin, and death. He is the father of it (1 John 3:8). Therefore, God uses those things for this present... world, against those who rebel against Him. He even uses Satan as a punishing rod upon the rebellious at times (see Isaiah 10, using "the Assyrian" as a type for Satan).