Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
Save your pearls and shake the dust.Not all activity is work. Don't confuse a thought with an act.
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Save your pearls and shake the dust.Not all activity is work. Don't confuse a thought with an act.
Belief is NOT a product.Yes it is, what scripture says not all activity is work ? Because as I have shown the word work ergon means:
- any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
- an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you...the CONTEXT is Jesus speaking to His Apostles who He chose for that office, those men did not choose themselves to the office of an Apostle. It has nothing at all to do with how men are saved..nothing.
You hypothetical example proves nothing. Adults do have the ability and have learned right from wrong therefore have accountability to God, not infants (Isa 7:15-16).
Biblical example Matt 21:
But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
The Son was commanded to go work in the vineyard, he was able to disobey that command. But then he was able to repent and obey that command. The command implies accountability for he had to repent for his disobedience to the command. The command implies ability for he was able to obey and go work in the vineyard.
Nowhere does the Bible teach man is boren with a totally depraved natute or a sin nature. For if such were true, then it would make God evil and sadistic in condemning man for how man is innately born. It would be insane, cruel, evil to command a person to walk who was born without legs, then condemned that person for not walking. Calvinism is pure insanity!!
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you...the CONTEXT is Jesus speaking to His Apostles who He chose for that office, those men did not choose themselves to the office of an Apostle. It has nothing at all to do with how men are saved..nothing.
You hypothetical example proves nothing. Adults do have the ability and have learned right from wrong therefore have accountability to God, not infants (Isa 7:15-16).
Biblical example Matt 21:
But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
The Son was commanded to go work in the vineyard, he was able to disobey that command. But then he was able to repent and obey that command. The command implies accountability for he had to repent for his disobedience to the command. The command implies ability for he was able to obey and go work in the vineyard.
The word "repent" does not mean "I change my mind" as asserted by too many people. Try reciting the words of Jesus, where He is commanding the people in Matthew 4:17, except, first, replace the word "repent" with "I change my mind", then, second, replace the word "repent" with "think differently afterwards". God does not change (Malachi 3:6), so this One True God Jesus commands repent.metanoéō (from 3326 /metá, "changed after being with" and 3539 /noiéō, "think") – properly, "think differently after," "after a change of mind"; to repent (literally, "think differently afterwards") (def from 3340. metanoeó HELPS Word-studies section).
Nowhere does the Bible teach man is boren with a totally depraved natute or a sin nature.
For if such were true, then it would make God evil and sadistic in condemning man for how man is innately born. It would be insane, cruel, evil to command a person to walk who was born without legs, then condemned that person for not walking. Calvinism is pure insanity!!
The Bible does say men are sinful, wicked but no verse says man is born sinful, wicked. If one accepts how the BIble defines sin then one must reject original sin, total depravity.Let's just ponder your post, even your last paragraph's first sentence, in contrast to the prophet Jeremiah's words of "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9).
Even your thoughts contrasted against the Lord Jesus Christ's words "No one is good except God alone " (Mark 10:18), so the only state of being for people is evil.
Further exemplifing your heart's written antimony toward the Word of God is your ignorance of where He says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3); therefore, you cannot properly perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God unless God causes you to be born again. See here that a person not born again fails to perceive King Jesus in Righteousness, so the default condition of men is the state of evil - in other words - depraved (see Romans chapter 1).
Now, it's time to extend this post to address the roughly 5 segments of your post.
Context matters as to who is speaking, who is being spoken to and what is being said.SEGMENT 1 of 5
Your heart adulterates Jesus' words of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) into the words of Ernest T. Bass "you of the office of an Apostle did not choose Me, but I chose you for the office of an Apostle only" (the heart of Ernest T. Bass), yet Jesus places no limitation upon the blessings that Jesus chooses for persons; therefore, you separate yourself from the blessings of the Prince of Peace's choosing for His chosen persons. Let's look at a specific example.
Lord Jesus says "I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you" (John 15:15-16), so Jesus includes being friends with Jesus the sole and exclusive dominion of choosing done by Jesus, yet your heart emphatically separates you from being a chosen friend of Jesus - even with the Word of God blessing the "you" mentioned in John 15:16 with wonderful friendship with the Risen Christ even extending this marvelous blessing upon all His chosen/elect persons in all time!
The Word of God is clear:
- "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15 , the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
- "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God chooses people unto salvation.
- "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.
Christ defines and makes us Christians.
Your actions demonstrated above are not good.
The answer is absolutely yes. If we agree with the overall definition of work according to the greek word for work ergon:
See strongs # 2041:
- business, employment, that which any one is occupied
- that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
- any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
- an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work
A work is anything done, accomplished by #1 hand, #2 art, #3 industry, #4 or MIND
The mind is :
(in a human or other conscious being) the element, part, substance, or process that reasons, thinks, feels, wills, perceives, judges, etc.
Psychology. the totality of conscious and unconscious mental processes and activities.
So believing something via the mental activity and process of reasoning is work. The process of decision making is a activity, work of the mind.
Now for instance, the sin of hatred Gal 5:19-20
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
How is that sin committed ? It starts in the mind or heart ! Yet in Vs 19 its stated as an work of the flesh
So activity in and with the mind/heart is a work, this cannot be denied..
Now believing is either a work of the flesh [unregenerate] or of the Spirit [ regenerated]
But now Salvation is not by works, Neither by works of the flesh or works of the Spirit.
Again, if God gives commands that are impossible to be obeyed then that would make God evil sadistic unloving unjust. Therefore God's commands do imply ability and accountability.SEGMENT 2 of 5
Commands result in fruit/deeds for a person, and only two exclusive results exist for commands, either obedience or disobedience; therefore, a born of God person bears successful obedience fruit of the Spirit of the Holy God (Galatians 5:22-23) or an unregenerate person born of the flesh does the disobedient deeds of the flesh thus not inheriting the Kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21); moreover, commands do not impart ability nor even imply ability - unless the impartation of ability is express in the command.
Commands show who is of who or what.
Men are accountable to God for man's sin against God (Romans 1:20, Romans 3:12).
Again, God has commanded man to repent (Acts 2:38) therefore that command implies ability to repent, responsibility upon man to obey that command to repent and accountability if man does not repent.SEGMENT 3 of 5
The command and results show the fruit of the sons in the parable with Christian teaching recorded in Matthew 21:28-32.
Since you seem to have moved onto repentance, then we must see scripturally who causes repentance in people.
Repentance Defined
THESE THREE QUESTIONS GET ANSWERED
- What is repentance?
- Who controls repentance?
- How does a person repent?
LINGUISTIC DEFiNITION
Let us dig into the word "repent" which means "think differently afterwards". After we believers are born from above by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3), and in like manner given the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16). The Greek word metanoeó is the English word "repent" in Matthew 4:17. Let us obtain the definition of "repent".
Repent: think differently afterwards
The word "repent" does not mean "I change my mind" as asserted by too many people. Try reciting the words of Jesus, where He is commanding the people in Matthew 4:17, except, first, replace the word "repent" with "I change my mind", then, second, replace the word "repent" with "think differently afterwards". God does not change (Malachi 3:6), so this One True God Jesus commands repent.
Godly sorrow brings "thinking differently afterward" leading to salvation (2 Corinthians 7:10, so God's power generates this sorrow within the believers hence God calls it "Godly sorrow" thus illuminating and magnifying sin (Romans 5:20).
FIRST BIBLICAL CiTATION FOR REPENTANCE - A DEEP EXAMINATION
Here is the Christian teaching of 2 Corinthians 7:8-10. The passage (from the NASB which explicitly states that the NASB translators add bracketed words for clarity - so I have no problem removing the bracketed words from the NASB - but this is verbatim from the NASB):
Paul wrote a letter that exposed the Corinthian problem, see "I caused you sorrow by my letter" in verse 8.
- For though I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it - [for] I see that that letter caused you sorrow, though only for a while -
- I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to [the point of] repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to [the will of] God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.
- For the sorrow that is according to [the will] [of] God produces a repentance without regret, [leading] to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
As Paul writes further (in verse 9), the Apostle narrows the focus with "for you were made sorrowful according to God"; moreover, the Greek of ἐλυπήθητε γὰρ κατὰ Θεόν agrees with "for you were made sorrowful according to God". "ἐλυπήθητε" means "you grieved"/"you were made sorrowful", and "γὰρ" means "for", and "κατὰ" means "down"/"against"/"according to", and "Θεόν" means "God".
Paul does not leave it there, NO, rather Paul repeats himself in verse 10 to make it clear - in Jewish fashion of repeating a point for emphasis - Paul makes it clear in no uncertain terms "the sorrow that is according to God produces a repentance without regret, to salvation". That is Paul driving the Power of God exclusive role in man's salvation point home!
NOTICE THE KEYWORDS OF "ACCORDING TO GOD".
That sorrow, that repentance, is not of man's conjuring. See the keywords and absolute concept of "according to God"!
The scripture is devoid of "sorrow that is according to your free will" or "your free will to repent" or any indication about such a notion as man's free-will choice toward God.
The Apostle wrote "the sorrow that is according to God produces thinking differently afterward without regret" (2 Corinthians 7:10).
SCRIPTURAL CITATIONS ABOUT THE SOURCE OF REPENTANCE
BIBLE CITATION: Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? (Romans 2:4).
Notice that rebuke of people that despise repentance being from God!
BIBLE CITATION: When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life." (Acts 11:18)
See that God grants repentance as testified by the disciples in Acts 11:18.
BIBLE CITATION: with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, (2 Timothy 2:25)
Paul testifies that God grants "thinking different afterwards" in 2 Timothy 2:25.
THE THREE QUESTIONS ANSWERED
God grants repentance into people, as it is written; on the other hand, there is complete absence and silence in scripture for repentance as a work conjured up by man nor by man's "free will" nor "choice" nor "ability".
God grants repentance, and God acts for God's glory! Praise be to the Living God!
Return to main essay "Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor"
Again, you continue to avoid the words spoken in Jn 6:27-29. The phrase "work of God" shows that God is the genesis of the work given to man to do. No verse says God does the work of believing for man while man sits idle.SEGMENT 4 of 5
The Natural Is The First State Of Being For All Mere Mortals
The Apostle Paul identifies every man starts out as a natural man with "the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual" (1 Corinthians 15:46).
The Apostle Paul states that man is accountable to God for man's own sin against God with "since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse" (Romans 1:20).
The Apostle Paul includes even the Gentiles in the Law "For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves" (Romans 2:14).
The Apostle Paul states that man is accountable to God for man's own crime against God with "we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law [comes] the knowledge of sin" (Romans 3:19-20).
The Apostle Paul explains that the commands of God are foolishness to man with a "natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14)
The Apostle Paul declares that man's flesh opposes the Spirit of God with "the flesh desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. For these are opposed to one another" (Galatians 5:17).
THE FIRST STATE OF MAN IS OPPOSITION TO GOD, AND THE ONLY WAY (JOHN 14:6) FOR MAN'S SALVATION IS FOR GOD TO BIRTH MAN ANEW (JOHN 3:3-8), NOT A WORK OF A CHOICE BY MAN, BUT STRICTLY THE WORK OF GOD IN MAN (JOHN 6:29).
If man has no free will, then why does man do the things he does??? If a man committed mass murder but he has no free will then he did not choose to commit murder but God caused/forced him to commit murder. Therefore God has culpability in murder, man was just the 'weapon' God used to commit murder. Yet such an idea is revolting.SEGMENT 5 of 5
Man Opening The Door To Salvation - The Free-willian Philosophy Explained
Free-willians think a person achieves salvation by doing the work of choosing Jesus, yet free-willians simultaneously think another person goes to hell in the absence of doing the work of choosing Jesus.
THEREFORE, a guy that chose Jesus saves the guy himself, yet a gal that did not choose Jesus condemns the gal herself.
SO, the guy saved himself because without his choosing of Jesus, then he'd be just like that gal.
POINTEDLY, the guy's salvation hinges solely on the guy's choosing Jesus because, in contrast to being saved, the guy would be hell-bound if that hinge of choosing Jesus did not swing open by the guy's power.
The "hinge" of the door mentioned above is based on free will philosophy.
Consider a third individual, who never heard the Gospel of Christ, such a person is not going to be with Christ in His Kingdom - even under free-willian philosophy.
In this sample population, the majority do not enter Heaven, yet the entire population of people are created by God.
On the other hand; we Christians hear the Master say "it is finished" (John 19:30), and in that moment we receive the love of God (John 3:16) bestowing undeserved forgiveness upon us wretched God-hating monsters (Ephesians 2:1-4) - that the Son sacrificed Himself to reconcile the world to Himself (2 Corinthians 5:19) for the glory of God (John 17:4-5).
We believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent, and we believe Lord Jesus' sayings that belief is the blessed work of God in us (John 6:28) - it is more than an awakening - it is an enlivening - it is being born again (John 3:3-8) - it is getting the new heart that God wondrously implants in us (Ezekiel 36:26).
We Christians know that God's merciful salvation hinges on Christ alone for the glory of God alone, and there is nothing we can do nor say - not even a human choice approving of Jesus in order to obtain saving grace - nothing we say or do earns the unearnable love of God. We believe that Being saved from the wrath of God is exclusively God choosing us, not us choosing God (John 15:16, John 15:19).
For Christians, it is "believing"; in contrast, for the guy saying "I chose to believe in Jesus", it is "choosing".
For us Christians, it all hinges on Christ alone, yet for the free-willians saying "I chose to believe in Jesus", it all hinges on the a free-willian's choice.
The free will philosophy is proven to be deception because "Behold, His servants, He does not trust" (Job 4:18), so God does not trust a person who chooses Jesus; therefore, a free-willian who says "I chose Jesus" is bound for hell.
Behold, the psalmist says he is entirely dependent upon the Almighty!
I will extol You, O YHWH, for You have lifted me up,
And have not let my enemies rejoice over me.
O YHWH my God,
I cried to You for help, and You healed me.
O YHWH, You have brought up my soul from Sheol;
You have kept me alive, that I would not go down to the pit.
(Psalm 30:1-3)
See "The Natural Is The First State Of Being For All Mere Mortals" sidebar for more insight.
Christ is the Christ in us Christians, and we know the Sovereign God reigns in absolute control of saving us from the wrath of God unto everlasting life in the love of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Free-willian philosophy is foolishness, and each free-willian thinks he or she sovereignly controls God by way of his or her choosing Jesus - that is depraved thus we return to you last paragraph's first sentence.
If you condition your salvation on anything you did, its a works related salvation which is condemned in scripture friend.Jesus responded this way:
Jesus the Bread of Life
22The next day, the crowd that had remained on the other side of the sea realized that only one boat had been there, and that Jesus had not boarded it with His disciples, but they had gone away alone.23However, some boats from Tiberias landed near the place where the people had eaten the bread after the Lord had given thanks. 24So when the crowd saw that neither Jesus nor His disciples were there, they got into the boats and went to Capernaum to look for Him. 25When they found Him on the other side of the sea, they asked Him, “Rabbi, when did You get here?”
26Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, it is not because you saw these signs that you are looking for Me, but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27Do not work for food that perishes, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on Him God the Father has placed His seal of approval.”
28Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?”
29Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.”
30So they asked Him, “What sign then will You perform, so that we may see it and believe You? What will You do? 31Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’d”
32Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I tell you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
Paul puts it this way:
Romans 4:
4:1 Abraham was, humanly speaking, the founder of our Jewish nation. What did he discover about being made right with God?2 If his good deeds had made him acceptable to God, he would have had something to boast about. But that was not God’s way.3 For the Scriptures tell us, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.”[a]
4 When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned. 5 But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners. 6 David also spoke of this when he described the happiness of those who are declared righteous without working for it:
Either way, the work of God is to believe on the one whom he had sent, and that is what makes a person right with God by faith.
So is belief a work? I suppose to some degree yes it is.
Faith produces fruits in which Christ performs in by the spirit within a believer - which are the works of ??? Love from my understanding.
Faith and the works that Christ perform go hand and hand. One side of the coin Faith - the other side of the coin Love (Works).
I copied and pasted Jn 6:27-29 word for word from the BIble, you reject that word.
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
The facts given from the above passage Calvinists ignore;
--Jesus made work necessary for them to have everlasting life, v27. All faith onlyists arguments die right here.
--hence the people ask what shall WE DO, that WE WORK the works of God. They obviously wanted to know what work was necessary that THEY do per v27 in order to have everlasting life that Jesus says He gives.
--Jesus did NOT say 'do no works lest ye attempt to merit the gift of everlasting life' instead Jesus gave them a work to do that they could have everlasting life per v27. Again, Jesus REQUIRED WORK on the part of MAN to have everlasting life in v27.
--the required WORK in order to have everlasting life per v27 is to believe, hence belief itself is a work. And Jesus in v29 said this is the work of God that YOU believe. Jesus clearly here gave the work of believing to those people to do...YOU believe, Jesus did not say God will do the work of beliving for you while you sit and do nothing.
I am citing the Bible here not myself as you fasely accuse. Simply because the context does not say what you wished it would does not make others wrong.
You continue to ignore the context of Jn 15:16 where Jesus was in the CONTEXT speaking to His Apostles that He chose to that office, those men did not choose to be in that office themselves. This context therefore has NOTHING to do with the salvation of men.
No verse says man lacks free will. Man is made in the image of God (1 Cor 11:7; James 3:9) and God has free will as does man (Joshua 24:15, Matt 23:37; Jn 7:17), God has the the ability to create as does man, God has the ability to reason as does man (Isa 1:18) man has a sense of judgment (Rom 2:14-15) as does God.....all traits man shares with God having been made in God's image/likeness.
Created in the Image of God
As a potter fashions clay into a vessel, the book of Genesis affirms that mankind was "created" in the very image of God. He is not the product of an ancient slime pit.christiancourier.comIn What Sense is Humanity in the Image of God?
The Bible speaks of humankind as being in the "image" of God (Gen. 1:26). In what sense is the term, "image," employed in this text?christiancourier.com
Again, if man has no free will then that makes God evil, sadistic, unjust, unloving, a respecter of persons and have culpability for the lost.
No verse says man lacks free will.
Not all activity is work. Don't confuse a thought with an act.
Save your pearls and shake the dust.