A serious questions for the Jehovah's Witnesses on these threads.

[Aunty Jane]

Aunty Jane said “The power of God’s spirit unites people...it doesn’t divide them. (1 Cor 1:10)” How can you believe that and at the same time believe you are part of a small group who have the truth and post the most divisive material on the forum?

For the same reason that Jesus said....
"Do you think I came to give peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division. 52 For from now on there will be five in one house divided, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”

If there was to be no peace even in families divided over worship, what hope is there for the divided churches of Christendom?
It was Paul who said Christians must all be on the same page (1 Cor 1:10).....Christ and his disciples were all in agreement with no divisions and if any arose, they were sorted, not left to fester......Judaism was not on the same page as Jesus even though he was a Jew....they purported to worship the same God, but Jesus said that their worship was in vain. (Matt 15:7-9)

The truth is not found in Christendom...it is the "weeds" of Jesus' parable....horribly divided and bickering still after almost 2,000 years.
Jesus said that "few" are on the road to life because the "many" can't agree on anything....as we see here on these forums. Yet still they all expect to go to heaven, when that was never on offer in the first place.

Matt 13:24-30....
"He presented another illustration to them, saying: “The Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a man who sowed fine seed in his field.+ 25 While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and left. 26 When the stalk sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds also appeared. 27 So the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’+ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ 29 He said, ‘No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse.’”

The disciples asked for an explanation of this one....
"Then after dismissing the crowds, he went into the house. His disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” 37 In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father." (36-43)

We are awaiting Christ's return as judge of us all......he will tell us whether we have it all right ...or not.

 

[Adventageous]

We are awaiting Christ's return as judge of us all......he will tell us whether we have it all right ...or not.

He already told us whether we "have it all right ...or not":

Joh_12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.​

Joh_12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.​

 

[RLT63]

For the same reason that Jesus said....
"Do you think I came to give peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division. 52 For from now on there will be five in one house divided, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”

If there was to be no peace even in families divided over worship, what hope is there for the divided churches of Christendom?
It was Paul who said Christians must all be on the same page (1 Cor 1:10).....Christ and his disciples were all in agreement with no divisions and if any arose, they were sorted, not left to fester......Judaism was not on the same page as Jesus even though he was a Jew....they purported to worship the same God, but Jesus said that their worship was in vain. (Matt 15:7-9)

The truth is not found in Christendom...it is the "weeds" of Jesus' parable....horribly divided and bickering still after almost 2,000 years.
Jesus said that "few" are on the road to life because the "many" can't agree on anything....as we see here on these forums. Yet still they all expect to go to heaven, when that was never on offer in the first place.

Matt 13:24-30....
"He presented another illustration to them, saying: “The Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a man who sowed fine seed in his field.+ 25 While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and left. 26 When the stalk sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds also appeared. 27 So the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’+ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ 29 He said, ‘No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse.’”

The disciples asked for an explanation of this one....
"Then after dismissing the crowds, he went into the house. His disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” 37 In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father." (36-43)

We are awaiting Christ's return as judge of us all......he will tell us whether we have it all right ...or not.

Completely contradicts what you posted earlier. ——“The power of God’s spirit unites people...it doesn’t divide them.“

 

[Aunty Jane]

Completely contradicts what you posted earlier. ——“The power of God’s spirit unites people...it doesn’t divide them.“

I'm afraid it's the way you interpret things that messes up what you read.....You missed the point Jesus made....the truth divides people as it should....believers from unbelievers.....even in the same family, we can make enemies by choosing truth over tradition. They may hate us for leaving their traditional religious beliefs and choosing to follow something unpopular. It's what the first Christians had to do......so we will have to do it too. (John 15:18-21) We were told what to expect.
Those who are true believers are unified.....there is no contradiction. Christ's disciples must be on the same page (1 Cor 1:10) or they are not his true disciples. (John 6:65)

 

[Adventageous]

Ask a WTS/JW member,

In scripture, who is the "good shepherd"?

Joh_10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.​

Joh_10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.​

 

[RLT63]

I'm afraid it's the way you interpret things that messes up what you read.....You missed the point Jesus made....the truth divides people as it should....believers from unbelievers.....even in the same family, we can make enemies by choosing truth over tradition. They may hate us for leaving their traditional religious beliefs and choosing to follow something unpopular. It's what the first Christians had to do......so will will have to do it too. (John 15:18-21) We were told what to expect.
Those who are true believers are unified.....there is no contradiction. Christ's disciples must be on the same page (1 Cor 1:10) or they are not his true disciples. (John 6:65)

LOL. You can’t see the folly of your own words. It’s your words not Jesus’ that are in contradiction.

 

[Wrangler]

The passages are not vague.....they are explicit statements

They are not explicit statements that Jesus is a Spirit being. If they were, they'd be a contradiction to him explicitly saying he is not a ghost.

 

[Wrangler]

If Jesus is “the firstborn of ALL creation”, then he has pre-existed “all things” both "in heaven and on earth." Isn't that obvious?

Yes and it is obviously NOT proof that he is therefore a spirit being.

 

[Wrangler]

Speaking of the "Logos", John says that "this one was in the beginning with God" and that all things came into existence "through" the agency of the son....the Father's "Master Workman". (Proverbs 8:30-31)

Wow! That's quite the perversion there as Proverbs 8 is about wisdom - not the son. (Maybe you mixed verses there with the Gospel of John).

 

[Wrangler]

There is no scripture that even suggests that Jesus ... as the Father's only direct creation

It's funny how you dismiss what scripture suggests while suggesting something Scripture does NOT suggest. No scripture that even suggests that Jesus is God's only direct creation. In fact, explicit Scripture includes God directly making both Adam and Eve. Recently, in Wild At Heart, the author pointed out that Eve was the the last direct creation of God.

Perhaps you're dismissing that on the ground that dust was used to create Adam and a rib to create Eve? If so, I think your using an overly strict standard of what it means to directly create something.

But to your point of Scripture suggesting that Jesus only existed as a thought process of God before he was born as a human; is the fact that he was born human. Over and over again Scripture says that Jesus is a man. So, unless you are prepared to admit that humans are also Spirit beings, you have an inescapable contradiction on your hand.

 

[Wrangler]

There is no such thing as a ghost.....in the spirit realm ...

Seriously parsing ghost with spirit? That's a desperate claim. I grow up learning the Holy Ghost, the older folks talked about is another name for what I learned is the Holy Spirit.

 

[Wrangler]

We can faithfully serve our God, in spite of the devil's machinations, or we can rebel against him and accept satan's lies as truth

There's that IDOLATRY of knowledge again.

Defining heresy as a salvation issue, you don't hold that every point of doctrine is a matter of heresy, a matter of it being a salvation issue, do you ?

 

[Aunty Jane]

They are not explicit statements that Jesus is a Spirit being. If they were, they'd be a contradiction to him explicitly saying he is not a ghost.

Obviously when in human form, Jesus was not a spirit....just as angels were in human form when communicating with Abraham. (Genesis 18) Spirits cannot eat and drink, but these angels did.

Genesis 6 also tells us that angels materialized in Noah’s day and actually cohabited with human women who were Adam’s descendants and produced a hybrid race of freakish giants (the Nephilim) who had no right to exist. These monstrous beings were licentious and violent in nature and had corrupted mankind to a point where drastic action was needed. God told Noah how to save himself and he used the whole scenario to illustrate how the human race would behave at the end of the current world system. (Matthew 24:37-39) We are back to the days of Noah....and the demons are behind man's disgusting behavior. He is the "god of this world" and we can see it plainly. (2 Cor 4:4-5)

In order to return to the spirit realm where we know that beings are not material, they had to dematerialize....flesh and blood cannot exist outside of earth's atmosphere because mortals need what the earth supplies.

God is an invisible spirit, according to John and Paul....(John 4:24; Col 1:15) In order to survive in the presence of God, those who achieve life in heaven have to become spirits in an immortal body. (1 Cor 15:42-50)

Yes and it is obviously NOT proof that he is therefore a spirit being.

Can I take you back to the beginning Wrangler......what was God "in the beginning" a physical being or a spirit being?
Who was it that God used to create ALL things?
The spirit realm was inhabited first, because Job 38:37 tells us that the angels ("the sons of God") were applauding God's material creation. What else would the pre-human Jesus be, but a spirit like every other creature that inhabited the spirit realm before the material universe existed...? The spirit son who became Jesus the man lived way before his human birth. Jesus told the Jews that he was in existence before Abraham was even born. The Bible tells us that he existed before any other thing.

That's quite the perversion there as Proverbs 8 is about wisdom - not the son. (Maybe you mixed verses there with the Gospel of John).

No sorry, I have mixed nothing up.....the apostle Paul said....
"However, to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God. . . . .But it is due to him that you are in union with Christ Jesus, who has become to us wisdom from God, also righteousness and sanctification and release by ransom,"

So it not without scriptural support that Prov 8:30-31 is considered by many scholars to be a description of the one "through whom God made all things"....God's "Master Workman".

Proverbs 8:22 says....
CEB
"The Lord created me at the beginning of his way, before his deeds long in the past."
HCSB
“The Lord made me at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago."
TLB
"The Lord formed me in the beginning, before he created anything else."
NASB
“The Lord created me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old."
NET
"The Lord created me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago."

If this was speaking about God's wisdom, then it is indicating that there was a time when God was not wise.....this is a description of God's firstborn....the first of his creations, as wisdom personified.....brought forth before he created anything else.

In fact, explicit Scripture includes God directly making both Adam and Eve. Recently, in Wild At Heart, the author pointed out that Eve was the the last direct creation of God.

I guess you overlooked the part that says God created ALL things through the agency of his son.....God has just one "only begotten son".....the only one directly created by the Father......all other things, including the angelic sons, came "through" the son. That is what the scriptures say...argue with them.

But to your point of Scripture suggesting that Jesus only existed as a thought process of God before he was born as a human; is the fact that he was born human. Over and over again Scripture says that Jesus is a man. So, unless you are prepared to admit that humans are also Spirit beings, you have an inescapable contradiction on your hand.

Of course Jesus was a man.....he had to be to take the sins away from the human race......a man created the problem....a man also had to pay the debt. By Jesus' own admission, he "came down from heaven" to do the will of his Father.....again, that is scripture. Just because it doesn't fit your chosen scenario, doesn't make it wrong.

Seriously parsing ghost with spirit? That's a desperate claim. I grow up learning the Holy Ghost, the older folks talked about is another name for what I learned is the Holy Spirit.

Do you understand where the word "geist" (ghost) comes from? It isn't in the Bible because because of the connotation attached to it by those who want to promote demonism. All forms of spiritism were forbidden by God's Law to Israel. (Deut 18:9-12) To consult a spirit medium carried the death penalty.

Many years ago there was a movie called "Poltergeist" and it was about the activity of wicked spirits in a haunted house....a horror movie.
The word "geist" is of German origin, and yes, it means "spirit", but we already know that God's spirit is not a person....it is the exercise of his immense power. That means that there is no such thing as a "Holy Ghost", as Christendom understands the term.

So, to call God a "geist" (ghost) in the same way as you call him a "spirit" is to put him in company with the wicked spirits.....I don't think he wants to be in that company.....do you?
"God is a spirit", but that simply describes his being.......and like all who inhabit the spirit realm, they are invisible (immaterial) like God is. (Col 1:15) Jesus existed as "the firstborn of ALL creation"....he was in existence before anything else....used by his Father to create all things. (Col 1:16-17) Just read the scripture....

Defining heresy as a salvation issue, you don't hold that every point of doctrine is a matter of heresy, a matter of it being a salvation issue, do you ?

Salvation comes to those who promote the truth....there can be only one truth, not many versions of it.....so if the truth we hold is not really truth, but only accepted as such because it suits us to believe it....then yes, believing what is not true is a salvation issue.
Those who pass muster at the judgment will have been found "doing the will of the Father" (Matt 7:21-23)....so what is the will of the Father, Wrangler?

 

[Wrangler]

Obviously when in human form

I think you are missing the point. Either Jesus is human or merely is NOT human but merely in human form. Which is it?

 

[RLT63]

Who Are the 144,000 in the Book of Revelation?

During the Tribulation, 144,000 Jews will share God’s message of salvation. Find out what the Bible says about these preachers of the Last Days.

davidjeremiah.blog

Jesus death on the Stauros - Cross or Stake?

Was Jesus death on a Cross or Stake? Why the Watchtower is incorrect when translating Stauros, and the deception it uses in attempting to support its claim

www.jwfacts.com

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus death on the Stauros - Cross or Stake?

Was Jesus death on a Cross or Stake? Why the Watchtower is incorrect when translating Stauros, and the deception it uses in attempting to support its claim

www.jwfacts.com

Ver good article.

Of all the things to dispute - how the man Jesus died and denying he came back as a man seem so silly to me. That is, until one realizes the weight JW put on such things.

There's that IDOLATRY of knowledge again.

Defining heresy as a salvation issue, you don't hold that every point of doctrine is a matter of heresy, a matter of it being a salvation issue, do you ?

Salvation comes to those who promote the truth....there can be only one truth, not many versions of it.....so if the truth we hold is not really truth, but only accepted as such because it suits us to believe it....then yes, believing what is not true is a salvation issue.

Christ has set us free but your JW IDOLATRY has enslaved you. I feel so bad for JW now!

Given that you hold every point of doctrine a salvation issue, you must have no hope in JW reversing themselves on celebrating Christmas, Jesus dying on a cross. It means that by your own doctrines, you are holding fellow JW (of a different time) as incapable of receiving salvation since the believed what you now believe is untrue.

Holy works based doctrine, batman!

 

[Wrangler]

What else would the pre-human Jesus be, but a spirit

Circular & False Alternative. What is something before it exists?

 

[RLT63]

Ver good article.

Of all the things to dispute - how the man Jesus died and denying he came back as a man seem so silly to me. That is, until one realizes the weight JW put on such things.




Christ has set us free but your JW IDOLATRY has enslaved you. I feel so bad for JW now!

Given that you hold every point of doctrine a salvation issue, you must have no hope in JW reversing themselves on celebrating Christmas, Jesus dying on a cross. It means that by your own doctrines, you are holding fellow JW (of a different time) as incapable of receiving salvation since the believed what you now believe is untrue.

Holy works based doctrine, batman!

But they claim JWs go all the way back to Abel. ”Jehovah's witnesses have a history almost 6,000 years long, beginning while the first man, Adam, was still alive ... [Abel was] the first of an unbroken line of Witnesses ... Jesus' disciples were all Jehovah's witnesses ..." Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose pp.8-9

 

[ElieG12]

(...) Of all the things to dispute - how the man Jesus died and denying he came back as a man seem so silly to me. That is, until one realizes the weight JW put on such things. (...)

Talking about human beings in general, the Scriptures say:

Psal. 8:4 What is mortal man that you keep him in mind,
And a son of man that you take care of him?
5 You made him a little lower than godlike ones,
And you crowned him with glory and splendor.
6 You gave him dominion over the works of your hands;
You have put everything under his feet ...

And about Jesus when born human and applying the last passage to him, Scripture says:

Heb. 2:9 But we do see Jesus, who was made a little lower than angels, now crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death, so that by God’s undeserved kindness he might taste death for everyone.
10 For it was fitting that the one for whom and through whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the Chief Agent of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both the one who is sanctifying and those who are being sanctified all stem from one, and for this reason he is not ashamed to call them brothers, 12 as he says: “I will declare your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will praise you with song.” 13 And again: “I will put my trust in him.” And again: “Look! I and the young children, whom Jehovah gave me.”
14 Therefore, since the “young children” are sharers of blood and flesh, he also similarly shared in the same things, so that through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil, 15 and that he might set free all those who were held in slavery all their lives by their fear of death. 16 For it is not really angels he is assisting, but he is assisting Abraham’s offspring. 17 Consequently, he had to become like his “brothers” in all respects, so that he could become a merciful and faithful high priest in things relating to God, in order to offer a propitiatory sacrifice for the sins of the people. 18 Since he himself has suffered when being put to the test, he is able to come to the aid of those who are being put to the test.

So the Bible explains that Jesus' life in the flesh fulfilled a very specific purpose that ended at the moment of his death:

Phil. 2:6 (...) although he was existing in God’s form, did not even consider the idea of trying to be equal to God. 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human. 8 More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Heb. 5:7 During his life on earth [this expression is literally: in the days of his flesh], Christ offered up supplications and also petitions, with strong outcries and tears, to the One who was able to save him out of death, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear. 8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. 9 And after he had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him, 10 because he has been designated by God a high priest in the manner of Melchizedek.

... 10:5 So when he comes into the world, he says: “‘Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me. 6 You did not approve of whole burnt offerings and sin offerings.’ 7 Then I said: ‘Look! I have come (in the scroll it is written about me) to do your will, O God.’” 8 After first saying: “You did not want nor did you approve of sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sin offerings”—sacrifices that are offered according to the Law— 9 then he says: “Look! I have come to do your will.” He does away with what is first in order to establish what is second. 10 By this “will” we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.

The physical body with which Jesus was born had the temporary purpose of living among humans and being sacrificed forever. If Jesus were still living with that body, he would still be "lower than angels" and his sacrifice would have been null and void to repay the ransom he had offered to God.

Now Jesus is in the heavens the same powerful spirit that he was before he became a human... he does not live as if he were an astronaut walking through space in an environment that is only suitable for spirit beings (1 Cor. 15:50).

 

[Wrangler]

But they claim JWs go all the way back to Abel. ”Jehovah's witnesses have a history almost 6,000 years long, beginning while the first man, Adam, was still alive ... [Abel was] the first of an unbroken line of Witnesses ... Jesus' disciples were all Jehovah's witnesses ..." Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose pp.8-9

Yea, semantics: JW v Jw. We are all believers in God (Jw) but that does not make us a member of the works-based denomination JW.