Who are the 144,000?

[Wrangler]

This is to you a meaningful possibility?

Possibilities are not meaningful beyond they exist. And it is not what is meaningful to me but the speaker/author.

I'd agree with QT's word, it's evident.

If it were evident, you’d be able to produce the evidence. While others are fond of reading all kinds of things into text, I tend to refrain.

 

[marks]

Picking up on the words 'I heard' in Revelation 7:4 and few verses later in 7:9 'I looked', it becomes evident that the 144000 are the same crowd as the great multitude.

Considering that the "innumerable multitute" is "innumerable", how is it that they are then numbered?

Considering that the multitude from all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, how is it that they are all men of the tribes of Israel?

Much love!

 

[RLT63]

I think "the 12" in Scripture is just as evident,

1 Corinthians 15:4-7 KJV
4) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5) And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6) After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7) After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

Is there really any question that Paul is refering to Matthew and Thaddeus and Matthias and the others? I don't think so. I think the context really gives only one reasonable answer, and it's NOT a dozen eggs! LOL!!

Matthew 26:20 KJV
Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.

Much love!

True

 

[Wrangler]

Or you just want others to present the arguments?

Yes. This is called education. Understand the facts. Understand the arguments FOR and AGAINST a proposition BEFORE forming an opinion.

 

[marks]

Revelation 7:2-8 KJV
2) And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5) Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6) Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7) Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8) Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Personally, I think the first question needs to be answered is, Are we to accept this as true as stated?

If so, we have the clear answers to who these are.

If no, why not??

The passage tells us exactly who these people are. If someone says we shouldn't accept the plain saying of this passage, I ask, Why Not??

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

I think "the 12" in Scripture is just as evident,

1 Corinthians 15:4-7 KJV

True

You guys are killing me.

Revelation 21:12

Contemporary English Version

​

12 The city had a high and thick wall with twelve gates, and each one of them was guarded by an angel. On each of the gates was written the name of one of the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[quietthinker]

Possibilities are not meaningful beyond they exist. And it is not what is meaningful to me but the speaker/author.


If it were evident, you’d be able to produce the evidence. While others are fond of reading all kinds of things into text, I tend to refrain.

The evidence is there Wrangler, you just don't see it.....and I wonder whether you would consider that possibility?

 

[marks]

Matthew 10:21-23 KJV
21) And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
23) But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes. This is called education. Understand the facts. Understand the arguments FOR and AGAINST a proposition BEFORE forming an opinion.

OK. Just follow along my posts and you'll see my view.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You guys are killing me.

Revelation 21:12​

​

Contemporary English Version​

​

​

12 The city had a high and thick wall with twelve gates, and each one of them was guarded by an angel. On each of the gates was written the name of one of the twelve tribes of Israel.

I was figuring you'd pull that out.

Real Question: What is the difference between your example of "the name of one of the twelve tribes of Israel.", and my example of "He was seen by Kephas, then of the twelve,"?

Hint: Your question was regarding the meaning of "the twelve".

Much love!

 

[quietthinker]

Considering that the "innumerable multitute" is "innumerable", how is it that they are then numbered?

Considering that the multitude from all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, how is it that they are all men of the tribes of Israel?

Much love!

The term 'Israel' is not applied ethnically, it is applied to those who 'struggle with God and prevail' as in Jacobs encounter with his assailant.
'Twelve' is the number of 'all Israel'. Twelve by twelve is a literary device to make sure the point is gotten.....all the 'tribes' from all the peoples of the world.

This exegesis totally demolishes theology which makes the literal understanding of Israel, of the promised land, being of some prophetic significance.
Remember, as far as literal Israel is concerned with their rejection of the long promised Messiah, Jesus declared sorrowfully, 'your house is left to you desolate'

Revelation is a book of symbols. Symbols used to reveal the great conflict between God and his people and Satan and his people. It is necessary to understand this otherwise we violate its objective.

 

[Wrangler]

The evidence is there Wrangler, you just don't see it.....and I wonder whether you would consider that possibility?

Of course. Still, I only see claims it is evident as opposed to an actual citation of the evidence.

 

[RLT63]

The term 'Israel' is not applied ethnically, it is applied to those who 'struggle with God and prevail' as in Jacobs encounter with his assailant.
'Twelve' is the number of 'all Israel'. Twelve by twelve is a literary device to make sure the point is gotten.....all the 'tribes' from all the peoples of the world.

This exegesis totally demolishes theology which makes the literal understanding of Israel, of the promised land, being of some prophetic significance.
Remember, as far as literal Israel is concerned with their rejection of the long promised Messiah, Jesus declared sorrowfully, 'your house is left to you desolate'

Revelation is a book of symbols. Symbols used to reveal the great conflict between God and his people and Satan and his people. It is necessary to understand this otherwise we do violate its objective.

This sounds like replacement theology.

 

[quietthinker]

This sounds like replacement theology.

whatever that is!

 

[marks]

The term 'Israel' is not applied ethnically, it is applied to those who 'struggle with God and prevail' as in Jacobs encounter with his assailant.

And how do you know this? Just saying it is so, does not make it so.

'Twelve' is the number of 'all Israel'. Twelve by twelve is a literary device to make sure the point is gotten.....all the 'tribes' from all the peoples of the world.

Twelve is the designation of "one more than 11". In fact, I'd say that's its actual meaning. But you say we shouldn't accept that. Why not? Where is the Biblical authority to deny the plain saying, and to substitute this particular symbolic interpretation?

And when He says, 12,000 from the tribe of Asher, and so on, Again, why should we not accept that? What does "Asher" allegorize?

This exegesis totally demolishes theology which makes the literal understanding of Israel, of the promised land, being of some prophetic significance.

This isn't an exegesis, though. You've not brought out what is in the passage, in fact you've negated the plain meanings of it all. It's an intepretation, but not an exegesis.

Remember, as far as literal Israel is concerned with their rejection of the long promised Messiah, Jesus declared sorrowfully, 'your house is left to you desolate'

and you will not see Me again until you say, Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord. Who won't see Him until then? Israel? National Israel? To whom Jesus said this?

Revelation is a book of symbols. Symbols used to reveal the great conflict between God and his people and Satan and his people. It is necessary to understand this otherwise we do violate its objective.

There are symbols throughout the Bible.

Many people take things in the Bible that seem to be against their view and declare them "symbols", and then go on to define them as they please, without Scriptural authority.

I say that the Revelation is the revealing of Jesus Christ, and that there are far fewer symbols than some people imagine.

Much love!

 

[marks]

This sounds like replacement theology.

Lots of theologians and commentators and whomever went wrong when they failed to believe that God would again bring the nation of Israel. They thought Israel was over, and couldn't believe all the places the Bible still spoke of Israel, so they had to come up with something. The Church, that's it! The New Israel! And it all went wrong from unbelief.

And now, we see Israel once again, and we see the prophecies heading exactly as given, still, that false notion holds on.

Much love!

 

[quietthinker]

And how do you know this? Just saying it is so, does not make it so.


Twelve is the designation of "one more than 11". In fact, I'd say that's its actual meaning. But you say we shouldn't accept that. Why not? Where is the Biblical authority to deny the plain saying, and to substitute this particular symbolic interpretation?

And when He says, 12,000 from the tribe of Asher, and so on, Again, why should we not accept that? What does "Asher" allegorize?


This isn't an exegesis, though. You've not brought out what is in the passage, in fact you've negated the plain meanings of it all. It's an intepretation, but not an exegesis.


and you will not see Me again until you say, Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord. Who won't see Him until then? Israel? National Israel? To whom Jesus said this?


There are symbols throughout the Bible.

Many people take things in the Bible that seem to be against their view and declare them "symbols", and then go on to define them as they please, without Scriptural authority.

I say that the Revelation is the revealing of Jesus Christ, and that there are far fewer symbols than some people imagine.

Much love!

Mark, there is so much to address here I am apprehensive to even begin an explanation. Why? because I can see you have your view fixed and I have no interest in submitting a presentation which has the likelihood of being dismissed at the front door.

Now you can interpret my words in the negative however I assure you, waters run deep on this.

 

[RLT63]

Lots of theologians and commentators and whomever went wrong when they failed to believe that God would again bring the nation of Israel. They thought Israel was over, and couldn't believe all the places the Bible still spoke of Israel, so they had to come up with something. The Church, that's it! The New Israel! And it all went wrong from unbelief.

And now, we see Israel once again, and we see the prophecies heading exactly as given, still, that false notion holds on.

Much love!

I think God deals with Israel and the Church separately but I posted this thread to see what I could learn, not to show how much I know so thanks to everyone for their posts.

 

[Wrangler]

Real Question: What is the difference between your example of "the name of one of the twelve tribes of Israel.", and my example of "He was seen by Kephas, then of the twelve,"?

Since 12 has nothing to do with the OP, there is no real difference. I only invoked 'the 12' as a comparison of a number referring to numerous 12s.

Having said that, the OP exclusively refers to the text of Revelation. How in the world do you support the idea that text in another book (Corinthians) supports the meaning of text in the book in question (Revelation)? Eisegesis comes to mind, big time.

 

[marks]

Mark, there is so much to address here I am apprehensive to even begin an explanation. Why? because I can see you have your view fixed and I have no interest in submitting a presentation which has the likelihood of being dismissed at the front door.

That's entirely up to you. No worries! As you can see, I accept the plain sayings of the Bible according to the normal use of language (as the writer used it), and I want evidence before rejecting that.

Saying that "It can't mean the actual nation" isn't to me evidence, it merely states someone's view.

Quoting, Your house is left to you desolate is not the same as saying "your nation will cease forever", and especially since it's declared in both Old and New Testaments that won't happen. Plainly stated. I'm telling you, it's the plain things.



Much love!